Oct. 17: Conversation with candidates for governor

In this Sunday Edition, a conversation with candidates for governor of Utah. In two weeks, Democrat Peter Corroon will face incumbent Republican Gary Herbert in the general election.

It's a race that has been marked by sharp divisions. Sunday, they outlined their positions on critical issues in this race and on programs for the state.

Segment 1:

Corroon and Herbert were given the opportunity to make an opening statement:

Corroon: Why do we live in Utah? We live in Utah because we have great people, beautiful mountains, a beautiful environment. We have a great place to do business. I'm running for governor because I love the great state of Utah but I think our state government can be better. As governor, I'll do what I did as Salt Lake County mayor for the last six years -- run honest, efficient, ethical government. It's time for us all to put our shoulders to the wheel and start moving Utah forward once again. I ask for your vote on Nov. 2.

Herbert: It's an honor to be with you and talking about issues facing Utah. As most people know, I took over governor of this great state at a very difficult time. We lost a billion dollars in revenues, we needed to balance our budget, protect government services, protect education and see if we could, in fact, kick start the economy to get it to grow again. The good news is that has all happened. Our fiscal house is in order, we have balanced the budget, we have protected government services, we have protected education, and right now 20,000 Utahns have got jobs they did not have one year ago today. It's important that we grow the economy, that's how you pay the bills. We'll build a better Utah by building a better economy here in Utah.

The following is a transcript of the question and answer portion of Sunday Edition

Lindsay: It's ancient news to everybody in Utah that we rank at the bottom of per-pupil spending in public education and we are pretty well versed in the reasons for that. And that can be looked at as quite an achievement of a very efficient system because on test scores we hit about average or a little above average. But the other way to look at that is reflected in a report recently by the Utah Foundation that says Utah is significantly under performing in education because if we were to compare it with states with similar demographics, income, parents' education, ethnic profiles and such, we are significantly lower -- in fact we are almost at the bottom. So how do you view, Mayor Corroon, Utah's public education performance? Half full or half empty? And what policies would you implement to make it better?

Corroon: Well, when I look at our educators, I see a glass half full. But when I see the leadership on how we can improve education and fund education, that's where I see the glass half empty. I think we need an education plan, a long-term plan, for funding our education system. I have come up with my own plan on how to get our education system going again. I think it's critical that we provide the financial backing to our education system, in good times and in bad. Gary Herbert talks about having a strong economy to fund education, but even in bad times we need to fund our education system and there has been no plan. Today, Gary Herbert has commissioned, has come out with a draft, and I've looked at it and there's some great ideas and many of them are similar to the ideas I have in my plan. And so I think we need a long-term commitment to education, a long-term tenure plan. We have a transportation plan for how we're going to fund transportation. We need the same for our education system. We need to make sure that every child gets a good education and we need to make sure that every child that wants to go to college has the ability to do so.

Lindsay: Would you raise taxes in a recession to fund education?

Corroon: I don't think we need to raise taxes. There's plenty of other ways we can improve our education system without raising taxes. I think we can look at technology, how we can use technology. I think we need to involve parents and businesses in our education system as well, to make it better. And we do need long-term funding. We need to look at our tax structure. It doesn't mean that we need to raise taxes, but we need to look at our tax structure to make sure that we're putting the funding that we should be. Utah used to be number seven in terms of how much of our income went toward education, now we're number 41 in the nation. We need to get back and put that effort back into our education system.

Lindsay: Gov. Herbert, Utah's education performance -- is it mediocre or a model?

Herbert: Well, I don't think anyone is satisfied with the status quo. Our educators are very good and they're world class. We need to give them support and help. Under our watch, particularly starting in 2005 as we put a 10-point plan in place to grow the economy, because of an expanding economy, we put more money into education than ever in our state's history. We gave teachers salary raises, the largest ever in our state's history. And even in the downturn we have had in the economy we've been able to fund education twice as fast as student population growth. So we're improving in many ways. Part of the challenge we have, in fact, with a growing economy is to make sure we prioritize it correctly. Again the challenge I had in facing the Legislature this past session, where education was facing a $350-million cut, if they'd got proportionally across the board like other departments, was to hold that line on funding. We worked with the education people to come up with a proposal that would allow us to continue to move ahead in a down economy, as we in fact start growing the economy again. I've put together an education excellence commission which is bringing stakeholders from across the spectrum, whether it be the UEA on the one side, the Parents for Choice in Education on the other side, whether it's superintendents, school board members, business community, legislators, higher education, all working together. It's easy to put together a paper but it's hard to get people to come together on this. But the fact that we're doing it and succeeding is one of the reasons why I've got the endorsement of the UEA, because of my stance in helping public education move forward.

Lindsay: Both of you have the endorsement of the UEA, as I understand. Since you both have that endorsement, let me ask you both this question. Because many Utah parents have gone to back to school [night] in the last few weeks, and in that transaction a lot probably came away saying, "What a great teacher." And in other cases they might say, "Is that the best we can do?" So both of you with the endorsement of the UEA, what can you do as governor to raise the level of the performance of teachers, not just students in our educational system?

Corroon: Well, we need to give them obviously the resources they need to be great teachers. I've proposed a mentoring program and a master teacher program in my plan, where we can help teachers be better at what they do. But again we need the resources. Gary talks about how he's helped save education funding but in reality hundreds of millions of dollars have been cut out of our education budget while our enrollment has gone up 24 percent. They need the tools.

Lindsay: Is there an option to just move teachers out if they are not working after that mentoring program?

Corroon: I think everybody should be accountable in what they do in their jobs. And if we have teachers who are having problems, first of all, let's try to help them become better teachers. If they're not doing the job then we need to look at stricter measures. But I think the first thing we need to do is give our teachers and our school districts the resources they need to have the best educators in our schools.

Lindsay: Gov. Herbert, the role of teacher accountability?

Herbert: Well, it's certainly a part of it. One of the biggest complaints I've had since I've been involved as governor and lieutenant governor is principals saying, "We have some bad teachers, we can't get rid of them." And that is a challenge. I've worked with the UEA, we've talked about this. What can we do to make sure the bad teacher doesn't spoil it for the many good teachers?

Lindsay: What can we do?

Herbert: Allow them to be fired. It's going to require a change in attitude, probably working with the UEA, the principals, the superintendents and our school board members. We need to attract the best that we can into the classroom, that's why we've put such an emphasis on teacher's salaries -- Gov. Huntsman and I by giving the biggest increase in the history of our state for teacher's salaries. If we attract the best and the brightest, we won't have the problem on curing, getting people who were maybe not qualified to be good teachers. So it starts with salaries and benefits, it also means that we have to have accountability with the principals to be able to manage the resources and we've got to give them the ability to in fact hire, as well as, fire those who are not performing in the classroom.

Lindsay: A number of local governments in Utah have passed anti-discrimination ordinances based on sexual orientation. Do you favor a state-wide anti-discrimination law?

Herbert: I don't. I don't think that we're ready for that right now. I think this process that we're following right now with local governments representing their local constituency is the right way to go. It seems to have broad appeal, regional differences are in fact there, and each city and each county is not necessarily the same. So I'm confident that what we're doing right now is probably approaching this difficulty issue in the right way. That being said, I think all of us understand and appreciate that we've got to treat each one of us with respect, regardless of our differences of opinion on sexual orientation and other issues that become issues for us when it comes to potential discrimination.

Lindsay: Mayor Corroon, would you champion a state-wide anti-discrimination law?

Corroon: In Salt Lake County we passed an anti-discrimination law. I believe everybody should be able to work, live and take care of their loved ones in their community without discrimination. I think that if enough cities or counties do the same thing then we could look at a state-wide ordinance. Many communities are doing so. The LDS Church and other churches are supporting this kind of anti-discrimination ordinance.

Lindsay: Do you see it as a local issue rather than a state issue at the moment?

Corroon: I see it as a local issue at the moment but if enough cities do it, I think we could look at it as a state-wide initiative.

Lindsay: Gov. Herbert, during the summer you suggested that you were open to considering the repeal or some kind of modification of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution which grants citizenship to anybody born in this country. Why and what is your thinking there?

Herbert: I'm willing to have the discussion, the dialogue, as part of a comprehensive immigration reform dialogue. The 14th Amendment, I think, is being misused. It was originally designed for the slave trade and to make sure that slaves and their children had citizenship rights. If in fact, as some people allege, this is incentivizing people to cross over our borders and break the law, then we ought to have that discussion. We ought not to be afraid of it. I'm not advocating for or against it, but we ought to have the discussion as part of an overall comprehensive immigration reform discussion."

Lindsay: Would you look at reopening the 14th Amendment?

Corroon: I wouldn't. This is an area where I differ from Gary Herbert. I don't think we need to change our Constitution, we just need to fix our immigration problem. We need to tighten the borders. We need to punish companies who knowingly take advantage of and hire undocumented workers. And then we need to come up with a plan that works for the United States. The plan we have right now doesn't work. And I think that if we have 50 different states with 50 different plans we will probably end up creating a bigger mess than we have. In the state of Utah, the state passed the e-verify bill last year. Our county government was one of the first ones to comply with that bill, that Gary Herbert said he was going to call a special session to have some kind of enforcement to the bill. He didn't do so. So if we have our state government who's talking about passing immigration bills and they're are not going to [provide] enforcement mechanisms or penalties or provide funding, then it's really not going to do us a lot of good.

Lindsay: As a follow up to the immigration question, Gov. Herbert, there's a campaign commercial in which you say, "Utah cannot do what the federal government has not and will not do." Is that an acknowledgement that immigration policy is fundamentally a federal issue?

Herbert: Well, I have given six guiding principles as far as what we need to be doing as a state. Clearly the frustration that is born of this is because of the federal government not doing what they are supposed to do by Constitution, whether it be securing the borders or creating a naturalization policy.

Lindsay: But Utah can't do that, that's what you're saying?

Herbert: The federal government must be a part of it, but absent the federal government, the states will in fact enforce and do something. That's what we've seen in Arizona and that's what you're going to [see] here in Utah. And again, the principles ought to guide us. We can't just wink and nod at the rule of law. At the same time we need to recognize the humanity of those involved. But the business community has a role to play. And we need to give resources and if we are going to pass a law, ask local governments to take a more active role in enforcing the law, there needs to be a fiscal note to it, which they did not do in Arizona. I think we can come up with a complimentary plan with the legislature. I need to correct something that Mayor Corroon has constantly said which is not true. I never said I was going to call a special session to add some teeth to this e-verify law. I was involved in the discussion. It was the business community that wanted to have a special session to clarify that this was a voluntary compliance. The Legislature decided, particularly in light of the Arizona [law], not to do that. It required a more detailed comprehensive plan and so by agreement of all parties we thought this should be addressed in a full session, not in a special two-hour session.

Corroon: That goes back to my point, our passing laws with no penalties. If we start passing laws with no funding either, it's not serving us a lot. And as somebody who runs the largest jail in Salt Lake County, we've already seen the state pushing down other prisoners, felons, into our state jails. And you know we don't have the room without the funding.

Segment 2:

Lindsay: As Utah voters cast their ballot for either one of you, they will also be voting on a number of ballot issues including Constitutional Amendment D. Do you support that amendment, Mayor Corroon?

Corroon: Can you give me the details of that one?

Lindsay: It's the ethics provision, the legislative ethics provision.

Corroon: I do support the ethics provision. I don't think it goes far enough. And again this is an area where I differ from Gary Herbert and, frankly, I'm disappointed with the governor's stance on campaign finance reform and other ethics measures. I do support the ethics initiative. For many years our citizens have been trying to get these initiatives and the Legislature and the governor have not been doing what the citizens want to do. This is a good start but it hasn't gone far enough.

Lindsay: This is directed at the Utah Legislature, since you are running for an executive office do you see the need for any kind of reform in the executive branch of the Utah state government?

Corroon: I think our ethics rules should apply to everybody, the legislative branch and the executive branch.

Lindsay: Governor?

Herbert: Well, in my "State of the State," in fact, I called for ethics reform and the Legislature did respond and this is one of the outcomes of that, putting this on the ballot to have a legislative ethics commission that's going to be formed to review ethics for the Legislature. They also did things on campaign finance reform and disclosure, limits on donations as far as what you can receive without having disclosure, anything over 10 bucks has got to be disclosed, elimination of Jazz tickets and golf outings, conflicts of interest. So there's been some significant reform that has happened out of this legislation and that's a part of it. By executive order, though, we've created ethics in the executive branch of government. Creating gift bans for anybody involved in the executive branch, a cooling off period so people can't come back and lobby and take advantage of the position they've had. So we're doing some significant ethics reforms, not only in the legislative branch as has been passed in this past session, but also by executive order in the executive branch.

Lindsay: Ethics has evolved to become a huge topic in this debate. Mayor Corroon, listening to one of your television commercials, I just want to make sure that you are saying what the commercial says or maybe not. "Gary Herbert opposes campaign finance reform." That's what your commercial says, you [Gary Herbert] just said you don't.

Herbert: I support campaign finance reform. The difference of opinion is whether we should limit campaign donations.

Lindsay: Is that the difference?

Corroon: Well, that's the difference, the other difference is with contractors as well. When we see companies coming in to the governor's office, having meetings, giving big campaign contributions, and then receiving big contracts or incentives or favorable treatment -- I think that's wrong. We've seen it on the I-15 road project, we've seen it with the strip mining in Southern Utah.

Lindsay: The question I guess really is, have we really connected the dots? The next line in your campaign commercials is, "Now we know why he opposes campaign finance reform," which he says he doesn't, "A for sale sign has gone up on the governor's mansion." And I just went down South Temple and didn't see it. Is that fair to say? I mean are you impugning the governor's integrity?

Corroon: I'm not impugning his integrity, I am questioning his leadership and judgment on this issue and everything that is reported in my ads is the facts.

Lindsay: "His corrupt system isn't just wrong, it hurts Utah's children most." That isn't integrity?

Corroon: I think the system is corrupt. And I think, Gary Herbert, instead of setting the highest bar, is seeking the lowest common denominator. That's what we see, his governor's office being used for campaign purposes. Nobody who is seeking a contract with this state, especially the largest road project ever done in Utah, should be sitting in the governor's office within a month of that contract, unless everybody's in there, unless everybody's talking about it. The system is corrupt and needs to be changed. We shouldn't allow contractors to give big contributions to a candidate and we should limit how much any company can give.

Lindsay: Let's give Gary Herbert a chance to respond.

Herbert: Well, the allegations of corruption are unfortunate and that the Corroon campaign has stooped to that level. We could have a civil dialogue on campaign finance reform and all of its iterations. I don't believe in campaign donation limitations for free-speech issues. I think we by default give it up to rich people and celebrities and, I think, average people have a harder time competing. Mayor Corroon would like to have taxpayer-funded elections. That's a legitimate point of view. He's used Arizona as an illustration of that, where somebody can raise $21,000 and then qualify for taxpayer aid up to $2.1 million. I'm not sure I want to burden the taxpayers with that kind of obligation either. Clearly, there's opportunity to understand the process. Mayor Corroon has been offered many, many times to go to UDOT and look through the process to make sure that there's been everything above board. The Federal Highway Administration has looked at it and says everything is on the up and up. The Attorney General's Office, the deputy that was there has looked on it and everything is on the up and up. His own lieutenant governor, who is still a sitting legislator, was over the subcommittee on transportation -- she has a responsibility, she could look at it. But in spite of all the invitations to kind of clear the cloud and take a look at it, they've refused to go there and let John Nord take them and walk them through the process."

Lindsay: Thirty seconds, Mayor Corroon. If the governor, if you are not impugning his integrity, but the system is corrupt, what would you do as governor to change the system?

Corroon: Well, to change the system would be to prohibit contractors who do business with the state from giving contributions, more than $100, to a candidate, which is what we did in Salt Lake County. And you know, he is impugning my integrity saying that I am not doing my due diligence. I have done my due diligence, I've seen the facts, none of the facts are disputed, even by Gary Herbert."

Each candidate offered a summary statement:

Corroon: I have a question for Utahns today, are you better off than you were a year ago? Are your children better off than they were a year ago? Is our economy better off than it was a year ago? I am offering a clear difference, a clear choice in this race. We've had the same system in place for decades. If you want a better Utah, please vote for Peter Corroon and Sheryl Allen on Nov. 2.

Herbert: I think Utah's future is very bright. I am very optimistic. We are concentrating on growing the economy. We've created 20,000 jobs since I've been governor in the last 12 months. Twenty-thousand people that are now working that weren't working a year ago. We've been listed as one of the best quality of life's in America and one of the best for doing business. And we're doing it in a very positive, bring people together, fashion, whether we're working on education, working on the economy, working on our natural resource development. We have a positive approach. The state of Utah deserves someone who believes in Utah. I'm Gary Herbert, your governor and I ask for your support.

Segment 3:

Through the month of October, each week we will bring you conversations with candidates for other major political offices.

Next week, Sunday Edition continues its election series, "Conversations with the Candidates" with candidates for U.S. Senate -- Sam Granato and Mike Lee.

"Conversation with the Candidates" schedule:

• Oct. 24: U.S. Senate race
• Oct. 31: 2nd Congressional District candidates