Judge Throws Out Motion to Remove UHP Road Memorials
A judge has thrown out an atheist group's motion to remove road memorials for highway patrol troopers killed on the job. August 4th, 2006 @ 7:45am
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Stephen Clark needs to get a real job
@Jim L. -
There are many crosses in Arlington. The Arogonne Cross, Canadian Cross of Sacrifice, and so on. Would this group have us remove those?
There are tons of references to God, including on the Tomb of the Unknowns. Would they try to remove those also?
The courts know that religious symbols and references are allowed, especially when they are the customary and tradtional symbols. It will probably see a very short life in the rest of the court system.
There are many crosses in Arlington. The Arogonne Cross, Canadian Cross of Sacrifice, and so on. Would this group have us remove those?
There are tons of references to God, including on the Tomb of the Unknowns. Would they try to remove those also?
The courts know that religious symbols and references are allowed, especially when they are the customary and tradtional symbols. It will probably see a very short life in the rest of the court system.
@Bryan W. - Bryan,
You speak rhetorically but you are spot on. The ultimate removal of all religious iconography or reference everywhere in the public is the ultimate goal of the ACLU and these liberal socialist God haters. They demand that their dogma be respected but are completely intolerant of anyone else’s religious expression.
Anyone who doesn’t believe there is a battle being waged against religion in America, particularly Christianity, they are sorely mistaken. If you value your religious expression at all then I recommend good people make their voices heard just as those who would steal this heritage from us are doing.
You speak rhetorically but you are spot on. The ultimate removal of all religious iconography or reference everywhere in the public is the ultimate goal of the ACLU and these liberal socialist God haters. They demand that their dogma be respected but are completely intolerant of anyone else’s religious expression.
Anyone who doesn’t believe there is a battle being waged against religion in America, particularly Christianity, they are sorely mistaken. If you value your religious expression at all then I recommend good people make their voices heard just as those who would steal this heritage from us are doing.
@Bryan W. - I understand that this is where they want to ultimately end up. They would like nothing more than to remove them from Arlington and with each win, they get closer. I think it is extremely sad that a few people can take away our rights because they don't believe in the same values the rest of the world believes in. I really don't believe they don't believe in God. I just think it is much more convenient for them to not believe because they don't have to ever have a guilty conscience.
@Thora S. - Luckily, I believe the crosses we are all thinking of are outside of the ACLU's jurisdiction, as they are in France (Picture http://www.sproe.com/images/screenshots/cemetery-01-large.jpg and http://www.abmc.gov/cemeteries/cemeteries/no.php)
Arlignton has rounded headstones (http://www.arlingtoncemetery.org)
But don't tell the athiests...When they find out, they are likely to be very cross themselves!
Arlignton has rounded headstones (http://www.arlingtoncemetery.org)
But don't tell the athiests...When they find out, they are likely to be very cross themselves!
Sell the 10 X 10 plot of land that each cross is on to the family for a couple of dollars. now you have private land!
@Anna E. - Rocky & the LDS Church worked that out, I think. Good plan, Anna! However, save that extreme dodge in the event of a loss at trial. The cross really is simply a cultural symbol, and a judge will probably see it that way.
@Anna E. - Wouldn't the athiests then demand that they or anyone else be allowed to purchase unlimited 10 x 10 plots for "just a couple of dollars"?
Actually, although I support the cross memorials, I think I would be opposed to the government selling public land only to select indiviuals at such an extremely low price.
Actually, although I support the cross memorials, I think I would be opposed to the government selling public land only to select indiviuals at such an extremely low price.
I respect everyone's right to believe in what they will. But I am offended by what this group is trying to do. Those officers gave their lives. Surely they must have something better to do......... So many frivoulous lawsuits......... and I am not an active religious person of any denomination........
@Stephen R. - I feel you Stephen! Why do these cases even make it to court? I think a monkey could figure this one out. I understand everyone has the right to believe and think what he or she wants, but taking the “cross” down would be a huge insult if I were the family member of a trooper that gave his/her life to serve others! Better use of time and tax’s dollars should be used to sue Blue Bunny for making ice cream to cold…
@Brooks B. - Really what next! when do (some) stop trying to make dollars and start making sense? I should sue people that make clothes its not me thats fat its the way they make their clothes!
Our world is so sad. Is this ever going to stop? Athiests, ACLU = Evil... What ever happened to freedom of speech. The athiests and aclu want to take that away from everyone, we do not have the right to put crosses on a highway, get serious!!!! Ohhhhhhh, this just makes my skin crawl, how upsetting!
Regardless of constitutional rights, etc - the majority of Utahn's have no problem with these crosses. Don't those of us that think it is a great way to honor these brave souls, also have constitional rights that allow us to display these crosses? In my mind these fallen hero's have gone to a spiritual place (a.k.a Heaven), that is best represented by the crosses.
I am not the most religous person, but do not see a correlation of church and state, with the crosses. I also see memorials on the side of the road, where someones loved ones obviously died in an accident. Should we also ban these items, as it may imply church and state intermixing also?
I am not the most religous person, but do not see a correlation of church and state, with the crosses. I also see memorials on the side of the road, where someones loved ones obviously died in an accident. Should we also ban these items, as it may imply church and state intermixing also?
Hail to the Judge . . .
I am glad we have a Judge that stands up to these court cases.
These UHP officers gave there lives in the line of duty.
Protecting these fools who want the crosses removed.
Where is it written that a "cross" only means Christianity.
Next they will want to remove ALL the crosses removed from grave sites.
To all the American Atheists Incorporated
Get a LIFE!!!
I am glad we have a Judge that stands up to these court cases.
These UHP officers gave there lives in the line of duty.
Protecting these fools who want the crosses removed.
Where is it written that a "cross" only means Christianity.
Next they will want to remove ALL the crosses removed from grave sites.
To all the American Atheists Incorporated
Get a LIFE!!!
Good to hear the judge threw out the motion to take them down before the trial. Now lets just hope they get to stay up permanently with a favorably ruling when it goes to court.
The very, very small minority of pot stirring "Atheists" will somehow survive these horrible crosses.
@Todd H. - The "very, very small minority" of "pot-stirring 'Atheists'" is growing, my friend...and we will not let ANY so-called majority undermine the U.S. Constitution while we have breath in our bodies. I am as indebted to police officers who give their lives in the performance of their duty as you are. Ours is not an "attack on Christianity," it is a defense of Constitutional rights. You are sadly misinformed.
You have got to be kidding. I am so tired of these people. If they don't want to see the cross then don't look at it. They are trying to run this great country in the ground.
What a waste of taxpayers money
Let the crosses stay and get rid of the people that dont have anything better to do than waste the money of us tax payers
Let the crosses stay and get rid of the people that dont have anything better to do than waste the money of us tax payers
Group doesn't like it, take it down - what a bunch of boobs! Do you want some cheese to go with that wine?? Why can't people just deal with the fact that the world does not revolve around them and there will always be something that they don't agree with. Wasting court time and money that could be used for far more important reasons is extremely selfish. These crosses are a tribute not a relgious statement put there to offend anyone. GROW UP
glad to see someone is using common sense here. What would have been next? Change the alphabet because the lower case "t" is a cross.
I hope the crosses stay. It is a great memorial and all those atheist nobodies need to quite causing grief among the families and do something constructive with their time.
I'm SOOOO glad that there is still a judge somewhere who will tell those athiests to get a life. The crosses aren't religious, they're memorials. Thank you, Judge, for letting them stay where they belong!
Good Move! If atheist don't believe in God or a superior being, and therefore symbols or religious symbols...then this should mean nothing to them...they need to get a life...many do not care what they think....God gave us brains, therefore they have none, not believing in God.
Nice that there is someone out there wanting to remember our fallen heros...God said Satan would be at work to destroy families and love of each other an man...and this protestor is Satan at work!
Nice that there is someone out there wanting to remember our fallen heros...God said Satan would be at work to destroy families and love of each other an man...and this protestor is Satan at work!
I hope the crosses stay. It is a great memorial and all those atheist nobodies need to quite causing grief among the families and do something constructive with their time.
I've got some news for these atheist groups. You know something, this state was founded upont the principles of "CHURCH" and that's one of the things that makes THIS state great!!!!!!!!! You know what, there are plenty of other states in this country that live the way you like it (without a god), go there!! Nobody is keeping you here or making you believe something you don't!!! If you don't like it, don't let the door hit your --- on the way out!! Maybe you don't believe in God but whose to say that those who the cross is honoring didn't!! Maybe, for them, that's a great way to honor them. Just a thought!
@Tyler M. - The Whole Nation was founded upon alot of great ideals and virtues, Religeon being one of them.
I think the ones that matter are the family members of these fallen officers. If they appreciate the memorials that's all that really matters. If they are Jewish and would rather have a Star of David they should be accommodated. If they're athiest and want a circle with a hole in the middle symbolizing their belief in the nothingness of a God then let them have it. But they need to stop thinking they are the ones offended. They offend me just by existing and telling me that I should do as they say. Well American Athiests I like the memorials and I agree with the judge. They STAY! Like it or not. If you don't like like it move to some deserted island and make the United Nation of Athiests. Otherwise learn to live in this majority rules country of ours and accept that the majority of Americans believe there is a God, and there is.
I think the ones that matter are the family members of these fallen officers. If they appreciate the memorials that's all that really matters. If they are Jewish and would rather have a Star of David they should be accommodated. If they're athiest and want a circle with a hole in the middle symbolizing their belief in the nothingness of a God then let them have it. But they need to stop thinking they are the ones offended. They offend me just by existing and telling me that I should do as they say. Well American Athiests I like the memorials and I agree with the judge. They STAY! Like it or not. If you don't like like it move to some deserted island and make the United Nation of Athiests. Otherwise learn to live in this majority rules country of ours and accept that the majority of Americans believe there is a God, and there is.
This is a case where a querulous minority is fighting for the public eye. I think the whole gaudy case should be thrown out as it is merely a boondoggle.
Since athiests will continue to push their religion on everyone else, Sell (or donate) the property (1-4 sq. ft.) with the cross on it, to the family of the deceased. It will no longer be public property, and the family will be allowed to do with it as they wish.
Since athiests will continue to push their religion on everyone else, Sell (or donate) the property (1-4 sq. ft.) with the cross on it, to the family of the deceased. It will no longer be public property, and the family will be allowed to do with it as they wish.
......removing all of the crosses and stars of David from Arlington National Cemetery.
@Dwayne A. - The only crosses in Arlington are those placed by the families, all U.S. Government provided headstones are a flat slab that have a rounded top. The symbol of religion is carved into the flat slab. The American Cemetaries located in foreign lands i.e. Normandy,France etc. have crosses.
Dear Utah Atheists,
I would like to ask you one question. Do the crosses physically impede you in some way? Is there an inordinate amount of tax dollars going to support their maintenance? One more question, why do you feel the need to make the majority concede to you, the minority (Americans are three times as likely to believe in the Virgin Birth of Jesus (83 percent) as in evolution (28 percent)http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/15/nyt.kristof/)?
What real and genuine harm does it do to you? I would like a sincere informative answer if you feel you can provide one. I would like to understand your point of view. Please remember one thing, as I always have guidelines (my little indulgence) just as I cannot concretely prove there is a God; please try not to prove there isn't. Just answer my questions. Make my Friday and enlightened one.
Let the family glean some comfort from "a useless wooden structure". Let it go. It seems that you don't have much of a choice now.
I would like to ask you one question. Do the crosses physically impede you in some way? Is there an inordinate amount of tax dollars going to support their maintenance? One more question, why do you feel the need to make the majority concede to you, the minority (Americans are three times as likely to believe in the Virgin Birth of Jesus (83 percent) as in evolution (28 percent)http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/15/nyt.kristof/)?
What real and genuine harm does it do to you? I would like a sincere informative answer if you feel you can provide one. I would like to understand your point of view. Please remember one thing, as I always have guidelines (my little indulgence) just as I cannot concretely prove there is a God; please try not to prove there isn't. Just answer my questions. Make my Friday and enlightened one.
Let the family glean some comfort from "a useless wooden structure". Let it go. It seems that you don't have much of a choice now.
@Millie L. - I speak for the Atheists who sue to take any and all religious symbols out of the public when I say that we do it because we're all a bunch of sissy babies with no substance in our lives, and the only satisfaction we seem to be able to find is by fighting against any and all religion. We expect tolerance to be a one-way street, meaning you have to tolerate us, but don't dare expect us to tolerate you.
So in conclusion, I speak for litigious atheists everywhere when I say we stink.
Rory Shackleford, Esq.
"I DO speak for Mike M.!"
So in conclusion, I speak for litigious atheists everywhere when I say we stink.
Rory Shackleford, Esq.
"I DO speak for Mike M.!"
Would athiests be happier if we had big gravestones on the highways symbolizing a death? A cross symbolizes hope and remembrance, can the athiests let the people that have hope have this one thing? Its not hurting anyone else.
I hope the crosses stay. It is a great memorial and all those atheist nobodies need to quite causing grief among the families and do something constructive with their time.
I am atheist but please..... Dont these groups have better things to do with their time then this. These people have given their lives to serve & protect. I think the least we can do is give them the credit they deserve, whether it be with a cross or not.. And yes, we should leave in god we trust in schools,on money, and in anything else it has been in/on for the last 150 years. That is what our country was founded on, beleif in something greater then ourselves. If you choose not to believe fine. Its just a cross, get over it and get a life....
@connie p. - Thank you so much for your post. It is nice to see that even someone who believes in the same concept as this group, is adult enough to have reason and understanding and not so shallow to be offended by the icons of our society. Excellent voice of reason!
@connie p. - Connie,
Thank you so much for your post. For looking past the religious aspect of these debates and accepting it for a sign of respect. The cross has been used for many of years for things that have nothing to do with any religion. Medicine, Ambulance, Fire Departments. Thank you everyone for the support you show for our fallen protecters. For those of you who do not understand or respect this wonder display of honor, I wish that at some point you are blessed with the oppertunity to understand what these officers and their families go through.
Thank you so much for your post. For looking past the religious aspect of these debates and accepting it for a sign of respect. The cross has been used for many of years for things that have nothing to do with any religion. Medicine, Ambulance, Fire Departments. Thank you everyone for the support you show for our fallen protecters. For those of you who do not understand or respect this wonder display of honor, I wish that at some point you are blessed with the oppertunity to understand what these officers and their families go through.
@connie p. - Good for you Connie. I believe that most athiests are just like you. It is respect for all beliefs that should be central, not imposition of said beliefs.
I hope that I can take a few minutes of your time and pick your brain. I am going to attempt to share my uneducated opinion and I would like to see if you agree.
I believe these people who sue to remove anything, actually believe in a form of God or were somehow injured by said God or God's people. With most others, if somoeone really hates and despises something, it usually means that said thing/person/organization has in some way wronged them. To hate something implies you care or believe or subscribe to said object of hate. Indifference is just that. You for example, no God? Ok, who cares if others believe. I believe to hate God and God lovers shows a level of concern, and therefore have some sort of connection. Very uneducated and presumptious but again, just my opinion. I hope I conveyed my thoughts properly. I have been known for being a poor writer.
Thanks for your time, have a great weekend.
I hope that I can take a few minutes of your time and pick your brain. I am going to attempt to share my uneducated opinion and I would like to see if you agree.
I believe these people who sue to remove anything, actually believe in a form of God or were somehow injured by said God or God's people. With most others, if somoeone really hates and despises something, it usually means that said thing/person/organization has in some way wronged them. To hate something implies you care or believe or subscribe to said object of hate. Indifference is just that. You for example, no God? Ok, who cares if others believe. I believe to hate God and God lovers shows a level of concern, and therefore have some sort of connection. Very uneducated and presumptious but again, just my opinion. I hope I conveyed my thoughts properly. I have been known for being a poor writer.
Thanks for your time, have a great weekend.
Why are they so bent on symbols and how, when or where symbols are displayed. One small hint of secularism anywhere near government property and it's time to kick and scream on the floor like a spoiled child.
Atheists are cry babies. They make themselves look lame, stupid and foolish.
Atheists are cry babies. They make themselves look lame, stupid and foolish.
I hope the crosses stay. It is a great memorial and all those atheist nobodies need to quite causing grief among the families and do something constructive with their time.
This Church and State thing is going a little to far. Everytime you turn around someone is compaining about something. We need to take these thing for what they are(A TRIBUTE TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE SERVED AND PROTECTED ALL OF US!!!!) Not what we can make it into.
Our County was based on RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, THE FREEDOM TO WORSHIP GOD.
Other countries forced their citizens to worship in the State church. This country was founded by people who wanted RELIGIOUS FREEDOM to WORSHIP GOD in the church of their choice. They were not taking God out of their lives, they were trying to get closer to Him. We live in a country that was founded on the belief in God. State and each individual person is free to show their belief in God as long as they are not telling the other that they have to believe the same way.
If you don't like the Ten Commandments posted, don't look at it, because that is what most of our original laws were based on, and if the world paid more attention to it, it would be more peacefull world.
If you don't like the fact that our country was based on the belief in God, MOVE.
Atheist' stop stomping on my rights!
I know I've probably made someone angry, and if you have to pick on my spelling or grammar, etc then go-for-it. But believe me you will be wasting your time, I LOVE OUR HEAVENLY FATHER and I BELIEVE that HE IS.
Other countries forced their citizens to worship in the State church. This country was founded by people who wanted RELIGIOUS FREEDOM to WORSHIP GOD in the church of their choice. They were not taking God out of their lives, they were trying to get closer to Him. We live in a country that was founded on the belief in God. State and each individual person is free to show their belief in God as long as they are not telling the other that they have to believe the same way.
If you don't like the Ten Commandments posted, don't look at it, because that is what most of our original laws were based on, and if the world paid more attention to it, it would be more peacefull world.
If you don't like the fact that our country was based on the belief in God, MOVE.
Atheist' stop stomping on my rights!
I know I've probably made someone angry, and if you have to pick on my spelling or grammar, etc then go-for-it. But believe me you will be wasting your time, I LOVE OUR HEAVENLY FATHER and I BELIEVE that HE IS.
@Ricky V. - I believe some people will not be happy till we have a government sponsored religion called Athiesm. That is perhaps why they seek to "...stomp)ing) on my rights!"
I believe there are no true athiests. I believe that each person lets one idea, pursuit, ideology guide their lives. I believe that everyone subscribes to that belief systems code of ethics which is basically what organized religion provides for people. If an individual chooses not to believe in a deity per say then their 'god' could be money, power, influence, career. Any force that drives that person could be construed as a 'god'.
Just my ignorant opinion. By the way, I also believe your spelling is much better than mine. Frankly, I am just too lazy to do a spell check.
Have a great day.
I believe there are no true athiests. I believe that each person lets one idea, pursuit, ideology guide their lives. I believe that everyone subscribes to that belief systems code of ethics which is basically what organized religion provides for people. If an individual chooses not to believe in a deity per say then their 'god' could be money, power, influence, career. Any force that drives that person could be construed as a 'god'.
Just my ignorant opinion. By the way, I also believe your spelling is much better than mine. Frankly, I am just too lazy to do a spell check.
Have a great day.
@Ricky V. - The First Amendment protects religious freedom, yes. However, "Religious Freedom" is inclusive of the freedom from religion just as much as it protects the freedom to worship the deity of one's choosing.
This country was founded on the principle of toleration; that people were better off if there was no state-endorsed religion. The Founding Fathers only had to look at history -- The Crusades (Particularly the second and the Albigensian), the various Inquisitions, both the Hundred Years and the Thirty Years War... nearly ever conflict prior to the last of the series had some sort of religious backing. I mean, look at Northern Ireland right now -- the entire issue stemmed from Anglican imposition by England centuries ago.
The problem with this is the possibility that if this keeps going on, somewhere down the line, we could have, say, a Muslim cop die in the line of duty and have a legal debacle over the iconography placed at the location of the death. I believe the proposition should be this: Place something neutral unless the family of the deceased opts for a religious symbol, be that a cross or any other mark of affiliation.
But hey, just my two cents.
This country was founded on the principle of toleration; that people were better off if there was no state-endorsed religion. The Founding Fathers only had to look at history -- The Crusades (Particularly the second and the Albigensian), the various Inquisitions, both the Hundred Years and the Thirty Years War... nearly ever conflict prior to the last of the series had some sort of religious backing. I mean, look at Northern Ireland right now -- the entire issue stemmed from Anglican imposition by England centuries ago.
The problem with this is the possibility that if this keeps going on, somewhere down the line, we could have, say, a Muslim cop die in the line of duty and have a legal debacle over the iconography placed at the location of the death. I believe the proposition should be this: Place something neutral unless the family of the deceased opts for a religious symbol, be that a cross or any other mark of affiliation.
But hey, just my two cents.
I think some one needs to be more informend before saying that the cross is only a christan sy. in fact the cross was around long befors christ was even born much less crusified! it has pagen roots! atheist really need to do their research before they start accusing and pointing fingers!
It's shocking to me that a minority group that call themselves atheists can make changes like this, or even be heard in one of our courts.
I applaud the judge for throwing it out.
But like was said, they'll (the atheists) still get their day in court.
Isn't it about time we put people like Clark in his place, shut his mouth and ignore his kind once and for all ?
I can't imagine being a child of a person like that, and have to show my face at school, or even in public for that matter.
Thousands upon thousands of people see those crosses everyday, and I'm sure 99.99% of them respect and appreciate the tribute.
So how is it that one small insignificant individual can come along and be so ignorant as to actually take this to such extremes ?
No doubt people like that (atheists) were brought up in a different way than the majority of Americans.
Thank GOD for that ! Amen.
I applaud the judge for throwing it out.
But like was said, they'll (the atheists) still get their day in court.
Isn't it about time we put people like Clark in his place, shut his mouth and ignore his kind once and for all ?
I can't imagine being a child of a person like that, and have to show my face at school, or even in public for that matter.
Thousands upon thousands of people see those crosses everyday, and I'm sure 99.99% of them respect and appreciate the tribute.
So how is it that one small insignificant individual can come along and be so ignorant as to actually take this to such extremes ?
No doubt people like that (atheists) were brought up in a different way than the majority of Americans.
Thank GOD for that ! Amen.
Those are memorials to those who died while trying to protect us on the highway... those atheists are way out of line!!!!
I am a Pagan I dont beleive in christ or God. However I feel strongly that the families of the these officers have the right to post a cross in the memorie of these heros. these are Men and Women who spent the last moment of their lives protecting our children and other loved ones and were willing to give their lives to protect us. This has been a symbol for the fallen for years and it is given to officers regardless of their religion or nationality and you dont hear their families complaining about the cross. So to the Athiests Get over it! we dont see you out protecting our loved ones.
The phrase "separation of church and state" does not exist in the U.S. Constitution. Don't believe it? Go read it yourself and see. If Jesus said "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" [John 15:12-13] then His symbol, the cross, seems a fitting tribute to the troopers who made the ultimate sacrifice for us.
@Mike B. - This phrase may not exist in the U.S. Constitution but does exist in the Consitution for the State of Utah. One of the compromises that was made to help Utah gain statehood was that the LDS church would not get involved with State Goverment.
On another note there are crosses to mark the grave of each person who fought in various wars at Arlington National Cemetary as well as may other Cemetaries owned and operated by National, State, and Local Goverments. Should we remove the religious symbols from those monuments as well? I think not. I do agree that a simple solution would be to sell a small plot on which the cross sits to the family of the fallen officer in question.
Personally I feel that the crosses should remain and that those who don't like it should get a life and not tie up tax dollers in the courts. This has been done too many times and I'm getting sick of it.
On another note there are crosses to mark the grave of each person who fought in various wars at Arlington National Cemetary as well as may other Cemetaries owned and operated by National, State, and Local Goverments. Should we remove the religious symbols from those monuments as well? I think not. I do agree that a simple solution would be to sell a small plot on which the cross sits to the family of the fallen officer in question.
Personally I feel that the crosses should remain and that those who don't like it should get a life and not tie up tax dollers in the courts. This has been done too many times and I'm getting sick of it.
@Robert S. - This is the text from the Utah Constitution...it does not have the phrase "separation of church and state"...
Sec. 4. [Religious liberty.] The rights of conscience shall never be infringed. The State shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office of public trust or for any vote at any election; nor shall any person be incompetent as a witness or juror on account of religious belief or the absence thereof. There shall be no union of Church and State, nor shall any church dominate the State or interfere with its functions. No public money or property shall be appropriated for or applied to any religious worship, exercise or instruction, or for the support of any ecclesiastical establishment. No property qualification shall be required of any person to vote, or hold office, except as provided in this Constitution.
Sec. 4. [Religious liberty.] The rights of conscience shall never be infringed. The State shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office of public trust or for any vote at any election; nor shall any person be incompetent as a witness or juror on account of religious belief or the absence thereof. There shall be no union of Church and State, nor shall any church dominate the State or interfere with its functions. No public money or property shall be appropriated for or applied to any religious worship, exercise or instruction, or for the support of any ecclesiastical establishment. No property qualification shall be required of any person to vote, or hold office, except as provided in this Constitution.
@Jason A. - That section of the Constitution for the State of Utah is where we get the phrase "Seperation of Church and State". That is what it says in a nut shell with out actually stating "there shall be a seperation of church and state".
It is about time that the courts didn't bend to those that make the most noise. I for one am glad that the memorials will stay. The men and women of the UHP put their lives on the line ever time they go to work. Even pulling someone over for a ticket can be deadly for them. It's about time UHP won a few. Keep up the good work and PLEASE stay safe out there.
It's about time the courts told these crybaby atheists to take a hike and mind their own business. There case stands completely on a twisted distortion of the First Amendment to the Constitution. There is no separation of Church and State in the First Amendment. It plainly reads that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, of the press, or the right of the people to peaceably assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
Tell me where in this it say there is a separation of church and state? This amendment was written to keep the government from establishing a state sanctioned religion such as England did with the Church of England. It also was to prevent the government from keeping Americans from practicing whatever Religion they so choosed. It seems to me that the only goal of the Atheist's is to use the courts to in effect repeal the First Amendments guarantees to the freedom to practice religion and freedom of speech as it relates to Christians. Atheists completely ignore the fact that the First Amendment specifically says that no law can be made that prohibits the free exercise of religion yet they are trying to do just that through the courts. I think Christians should unite and file a lawsuit against this Atheist organization for violating our First Amendment protections. This would likely stop all the frivolous lawsuits they have been filing as of late.
Tell me where in this it say there is a separation of church and state? This amendment was written to keep the government from establishing a state sanctioned religion such as England did with the Church of England. It also was to prevent the government from keeping Americans from practicing whatever Religion they so choosed. It seems to me that the only goal of the Atheist's is to use the courts to in effect repeal the First Amendments guarantees to the freedom to practice religion and freedom of speech as it relates to Christians. Atheists completely ignore the fact that the First Amendment specifically says that no law can be made that prohibits the free exercise of religion yet they are trying to do just that through the courts. I think Christians should unite and file a lawsuit against this Atheist organization for violating our First Amendment protections. This would likely stop all the frivolous lawsuits they have been filing as of late.
Your headline makes it sound as if the entire case has been thrown out of court, when, in reality, if one reads nearly half way through the story, one suddenly learns that it is only motion to remove the crosses before the case goes to trial! My junior high journalism teacher would give you a failing grade for the way this story is written.
I would like to suggest that if the athiest group wants the memorials changed to flags, they provide the funding to do so. It would solve a lot of issues!
I would like to suggest that if the athiest group wants the memorials changed to flags, they provide the funding to do so. It would solve a lot of issues!
atheists have too much time on their hands. You see, Atheists don't believe in anything so they have more time on their hands to torment those of use that do believe is something.
I'm glad the judge threw this one out. Hurrah!
I also get tired of the separation of church and state propoganda. I think we have stepped way beyond what the separation of church and state actually means or was established to protect. The founding fathers wrote the Constitution in a manner that would protect religions and allow people to worship God, or not worship God, as they so please. Atheists would have the Government tear down religions by removing God and religion from everything, This is not what the founding fathers intended. The UHP putting crosses on public property has nothing to do with Church sponsorship of religion. When the Constitution was written it was written with the intent that the Government shall not sponsor an "official" state religion. A good example of this is the Church of England. The English Government ran the church. This is the type of separation the Constitution seeks to avoid. Unfortunately the there is failure in this as the Government does in fact endorse a state religion....IT'S CALLED ATHEISM! Belief in nothing is still a belief and that is in fact a religion.
I'm glad the judge threw this one out. Hurrah!
I also get tired of the separation of church and state propoganda. I think we have stepped way beyond what the separation of church and state actually means or was established to protect. The founding fathers wrote the Constitution in a manner that would protect religions and allow people to worship God, or not worship God, as they so please. Atheists would have the Government tear down religions by removing God and religion from everything, This is not what the founding fathers intended. The UHP putting crosses on public property has nothing to do with Church sponsorship of religion. When the Constitution was written it was written with the intent that the Government shall not sponsor an "official" state religion. A good example of this is the Church of England. The English Government ran the church. This is the type of separation the Constitution seeks to avoid. Unfortunately the there is failure in this as the Government does in fact endorse a state religion....IT'S CALLED ATHEISM! Belief in nothing is still a belief and that is in fact a religion.
@James D. - So, in your eyes, non-endorsement of any religion = endorsment of Atheism? I would think an endorsement of Atheism would include a banner or some sort of monument clearly stating "There is no god. All religions are a hoax" or something to that effect.
@Spencer F. - If I disagreed with science, I think actively trying to get science out of schools and any public view would at least as anti-science as putting up "Science is a big crock!" signs.
Excellent attempt at defending lame atheistic stunts, though.
Excellent attempt at defending lame atheistic stunts, though.
@Jim L. - Is that Atheists wish to remove religious endorsement in GOVERNMENT-owned places. If a christian and/or jewish-themed statement is placed in one courthouse, a satanic symbol (for those evil devil-worshippers) or muslim symbol should perhaps be given as much consideration. My understanding of Atheists' attemps is to adhere to the Establishment Clause of the first amendment to the constitution which states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". Of course, the counter-argument I see in using this clause to thwart the use of religious symbols in government buildings is the fact that the clause states "Congress shall make no LAW..." I suppose the ALLOWANCE of a religious symbol is not the same as establishing a LAW regarding such symbol.
I'm curious to hear a reply from an atheist.
I'm curious to hear a reply from an atheist.
@Spencer F. - Good point. However, I don't think there is much difference between placing a monument stating "there is no God" and removing God from schools, money, the Pledge of Allegiance, and all public lands and buildings, which is the mission of those who believe not in religion or deity. If there is a difference, I would enjoy hearing your explanation. Keep in mind that in Communist Russia, the state religion was no religion.
I am glad to see a Judge stand up for what is the voice of the majority. These "special interest groups" need to find something better to do with there time. This is a fitting way to remember those fallen Men/Women. I do not see the cross as a symbol of someone trying to convert me to a particular religion, get a life.
It was a stupid lawsuit in the first place. As a fellow atheist, I'm embarrassed by this group's action.
KSL? Why do you give this stuff even air time. This guys motion should have just been denied, no talk, no words, no news story. I think you guys have too many people trying to justify their jobs.
I understand that people have their own beliefs (although I think atheism? is a joke), but come on! These people have way too much time on their hands! How is this really affecting their lives so much that they need to take it to this extreme? Kudos to the judge!
I do not belong to any organized religion, but I am very offended by this lawsuit. There is no connection between church and state. If you don't like the monuments then don't look at them. What a small token to give to the law enforcement that gave their lives to serve. I think the crosses are too small, I would be much happier with a larger one and be able to read the name of the fallen officers.
These people need to get a life! Don't they have something better to do! Hey everybody, there are about 40 crosses on Utah Highways for fallen Troopers. I think we should get rid of them! Yea, that will give us something to fight about for a few months or years. People have a right to their opinion but this is really petty!
@Elizabeth H. - Has anyone noticed that these so called minority groups are out all day and night doing their picketing and rioting stuff while the rest of us are working to support ourselves and our families? GET A LIFE BY GETTING A JOB. No one else has any time to get involved in these petty things because we are trying to support ourselves! Please don't tell me that these groups are using government welfare to support themselves in these government law suits to sue our goverenment to waste the government funding that covers court costs! Maybe we should look into that just a bit more?
_hank you judge. _his is in in rememberance of a brave person _ha_ gave _heir life in public service. If you don'_ beleive in god _hey have no meaning _o you. It _hey do have a meanng _o you, you mus_ believe in some_hing.
_hings jus_ don'_ make sense wi_hou_ crosses now do _hey
p.s. You can'_ even spell a_hies_ withou_ 2 crosses.
_hings jus_ don'_ make sense wi_hou_ crosses now do _hey
p.s. You can'_ even spell a_hies_ withou_ 2 crosses.
How are these crosses any different from the ones used for our nations vetrans? This argument infuriates me because if this is something that helps to bring the family of a fallen trooper peace, don't we owe that to them? Why would we want to put the families and friends through anything more than they have already suffered?
this church leader needs to get a day job or something cuz he has too much free time!! I was born and raised as a Religious person, however, I don't see the cross as a sign of religion in any way. the people suing over this need to show more respect for our fallen officers and stop trying to use their religion in such a "whining two year old" fashion. let anybody who has suffered the loss of a family member, a co-worker, a loved one, a friend or even a hero, grive and honor how ever they feel is appropriate.
it is about time some judge took a stand, but before we celebrate, I'm sure with all the money the alcu has they will appela and get their way. Maybe if one of their loved ones died they would have a change of feeling, not heart becasue these folks don't have a heart. way to go your honor
I for one am religious, with that I think the crosses need to come down. I work for a fire dept and see death on the road side more then what I would like. With that if a family of a little kid of a loved one is killed and they go and put flowers on the site they get taken down. It is law that no road side grave is allowed.
Now the officer gave his life but does that make him better then you and I???
They need to have a place where all of these crosses can be erected. A place like arlington, where all can go and give tribute to a hero.
I personally do not like going down the road and seeing them and know that they get treated better then anyone else and that they are above the law
Now the officer gave his life but does that make him better then you and I???
They need to have a place where all of these crosses can be erected. A place like arlington, where all can go and give tribute to a hero.
I personally do not like going down the road and seeing them and know that they get treated better then anyone else and that they are above the law
@Ray C. - Even though road side graves are not allowed, there is nothing against various kinds of markers.
@Ray C. - Thanks for showing me that I need to be open minded about this, I never thought about all the other people who lost their lives on the highway.
@Ray C. - my feeling is that you not only can think about the person, but when I see these at time, it makes me slow and and drive more careful. Like what happened her and why there was an accident. These guys are public service people. It is amazing to me to see other states allow these, the only reason the aclu is here is to give us crap and grief. If they don't like them don't look at them. I would rather see these thing there instead of all the truck bombs, why don't the aclu go after them for p------ every one off
@Ray C. - Actually yes it does make them better than us because they are braver than you or I will ever be.
@Ray C. - On the Highway. Seems to me that they are Highway Patrol that lost their lives in the line of Duty. What better place to erect it than near the Highway. I myself am LDS and knew one of the Highway patrolman that has one of these erected. He was LDS himself. Also their are many monuments placed along roads that have stood for years for regular citizens. The upkeep is of course up to the family themselves. I have noticed there has not been one Atheist come forward on this board except for those that support the issue. Seems to me it is a loosing battle that the ACLU (American Civil Lawsuit Union)is fighting to keep their lawyers pockets filled.
Good Move! If atheist don't believe in God or a superior being, and therefore symbols or religious symbols...then this should mean nothing to them...they need to get a life...many do not care what they think....God gave us brains, therefore they have none, not believing in God.
Nice that there is someone out there wanting to remember our fallen heros...God said Satan would be at work to destroy families and love of each other an man...and this protestor is Satan at work!
Nice that there is someone out there wanting to remember our fallen heros...God said Satan would be at work to destroy families and love of each other an man...and this protestor is Satan at work!
just a bunch of GODLESS commies with nothing to do except cause grief!!! I dont care about anyones personal beliefs, but get a friggen life!!!
@Kenneth P. - Atheists doesn't equal Godless commies. Atheists come in all political stripes. Many of them are civil libertarians because they fear people using the apparatus of the state to force their religious beliefs on them. That is a valid concern. This particular lawsuit went too far. Some atheists don't understand that they can be perceived as insensitive.
To the Atheists and others that are pushing this issue and others like it:
Check the Bill of Rights, there's nothing in there about any right to not be offended at times.
Everybody gets offended at times. Most reasonable people understand that it's just part of life. For the rest of you: learn to deal with it yourself and not try to force your views on everybody else.
Check the Bill of Rights, there's nothing in there about any right to not be offended at times.
Everybody gets offended at times. Most reasonable people understand that it's just part of life. For the rest of you: learn to deal with it yourself and not try to force your views on everybody else.
Well it's about time someone told the aethists where we stand. I congratulate the Judge who held up the cross memorial!!!
The cross was used by the Roman's to crucify someone. With this in mind, the cross can signify about anything you want. To say it only signifies God, is a mistake made by the Athiest. So, what I am saying, is that it is just a perception of a meaning and I do not believe that would hold up in court.
Things are getting entirely out of hand with this stuff. Not only is it "inappropriate" to say "Merry Christmas" for fear of offending someone who is not Christian, but now these true heros and protectors of not just those who are religious, but atheist as well, are being used in this petty and frivolous fight! I full-heartedly agree with free speach, but for pete's sake...let people grieve and remember those that are lost in whatever manner they see fit. This symbol hurts no one. It is a traditional symbol of memorial. LET IT BE!!!
As a person who has spent his time in the military I can personanly tell you that there are no true atheists. More than once I have seen an atheist pray in his foxhole in a battle. Begging for his life to be spared by the one person he does not believe in. To many times the minority in this country think it is alright to stomp on everyones else rights for their 15 seconds of fame. The ALCU is the biggest offender of this and they have almost destroyed our country. The United States was formed in the belief of God. It was formed for those and by those who wnated GOD in their life. Many Believe the United States to be the promised land of God. Yet in this day we are shamed by the few who would tromp on the rights of the majority religion. Christianity is the major religion in this country. While there are others who believe in God, the christians are the major stake holder in the arena of religion. There are more people who believe in God in the United States than those who don't. So why should they have the right to force me or my country to accept their ways while they trample on my rights. I have the right to say God in public, In school, in goverment buildings if I so choose. I have the right to pray where ever and when ever I wish. Yet the minority finds that it embarrasses them to be reminded of what is right and trample on my rights while trying to get their rights put on the books. They then force the majority to accept their view as the right one, when in fact it is the wrong one. To those who feel they must trample my rights into the ground I say this: STOP TRAMPLING ON MY RIGHTS! If you do not like my religion or you can not live with what the majority says then leave. I am sure you can find a life else where in areas that are godless. I am sure you can find a land where you can live with yourself with out the christens giving you a reminder of your ways. But I for one am tired of you spending my hard earned dollars on frivalas stuff that could have been used to feed the poor, or helped a family that really needed it. You should feel bad that the Government now has to spend our dollars on a worthless thing like memorials that could have gone to help the suffering. In my oppion you are not worth the money the Government has to spend on your worthless Ideas.
As for the Crosses....They should stay and if the courts say remove, we should then always keep putting them back. The needs of the many out way the needs of the few and selfish.
As for the Crosses....They should stay and if the courts say remove, we should then always keep putting them back. The needs of the many out way the needs of the few and selfish.
Imagine these atheists living in Rio de Janeiro with the statue of Christ the Redeemer overlooking the city. A similar statue overlooks the city of Barcelona Spain. Don't believe if thats your "belief" I applaud you for not being a christian that does nothing. But look at what our country was founded on. Have some respect for others. If an atheist Highway Patrolman or woman died, put up a statue of a walking fish. I wouldn't cry about it. Think about what their beliefs too. Give me a break!
Why should the minority dictate to the majority? The majority think it's fine to put crosses there. Thank you, judge. I'm tired of being in the majority but having to do what the minority want.
@B. M. - Ever heard of it? Our Constitution was designed *specifically* to prevent this.
You don't have to do what the minority wants, but you CANNOT use my government and my taxes to do what you want. Not without a fight, anyway.
"The Majority" took it upon themselves to buy these Christian crosses, emboss the official state seal of the Utah Highway Patrol on them, then plant them on public land and maintain them with public funds.
You honestly don't see a problem with that?
What if there were forty atheist atom symbols, like the ones in Arlington for atheist soldiers, bought and paid for by your goverment without asking you? Would you bring suit?
I think you would.
Atheists don't have any problem at all with Christian crosses, Christian memorials, or fallen heros of the Highway Patrol - but don't make me pay for your religious symbols. Pay for them yourself. And don't force our government into the unconstitutional endorsement of one, single religious viewpoint.
No, not even if it's the majority religion.
Guess what, we're all equal here in America. Christians are not "more equal" because there's more of you.
Get over yourselves already.
You don't have to do what the minority wants, but you CANNOT use my government and my taxes to do what you want. Not without a fight, anyway.
"The Majority" took it upon themselves to buy these Christian crosses, emboss the official state seal of the Utah Highway Patrol on them, then plant them on public land and maintain them with public funds.
You honestly don't see a problem with that?
What if there were forty atheist atom symbols, like the ones in Arlington for atheist soldiers, bought and paid for by your goverment without asking you? Would you bring suit?
I think you would.
Atheists don't have any problem at all with Christian crosses, Christian memorials, or fallen heros of the Highway Patrol - but don't make me pay for your religious symbols. Pay for them yourself. And don't force our government into the unconstitutional endorsement of one, single religious viewpoint.
No, not even if it's the majority religion.
Guess what, we're all equal here in America. Christians are not "more equal" because there's more of you.
Get over yourselves already.
@Brent R. - As long as the families of the officers didn't care that an Atheist symbol was used, why would I? If they were satisfied with the memorial used, it wouldn't bother me. On the same hand if one of the dead officer's families didn't want a cross, I'd support them in their decision to have an obelisk or iron pole or whatever. And for the record, try picking a shape that doesn't have religious significance to at least one religious group. Or is this simply about Christian symbols?
Thanks goes to the judge for honoring common sense and allowing the people who remember the deceased to do it in whatever manner they believe in - whether it be a cross, ribbon, flag, triangle, square, whatever.
To the atheists: we respect you too. Even if it means listening to you trying to violate others beliefs, freedoms, and religions. We accept that you have the right to freedom of speech. Too bad you don't return the favor. In the end, if you win, we all lose - even you. Lawsuits like this take away our freedoms one at time. Don't you get it?
To the atheists: we respect you too. Even if it means listening to you trying to violate others beliefs, freedoms, and religions. We accept that you have the right to freedom of speech. Too bad you don't return the favor. In the end, if you win, we all lose - even you. Lawsuits like this take away our freedoms one at time. Don't you get it?
tell me that the Stephen Clark mentioned in this article is not the same Stephen Clark who is a professor at WSU, teaching Botany. If he is, I am going to be very sad.
The very idea!!! So the symbol of the cross is offensive to these people? No symbol of God or mourning is allowed anywhere. It is a violation of our rights to see symbols of religion of any kind on public property. Why stop at the UHP? Let's just mow down Arlington cemetery while we are at it!
Boy am I glad this failed.
Boy am I glad this failed.
To those that feel that their beliefs are the only truths and would remove from so many a symbol of love and remembrance, instead take time to contribute at least daily a compassionate service to someone that has closed the casket on the face of their loved one,
or while helping an elderly person take the time to sit and listen to their life story, how their family got here and what it was like for them growing up as a child. Obviously these people have the time to do these things and it would certainly be better time spent with a more positive end result. And as others have said, if they don’t believe in God then the sight of these crosses is meaningless to
them anyway. Something with no meaning can not be offensive, it is nothing, it is meaningless. Unless the sight of it invokes some sense of guilt or thought that an all mighty might be possible. I find their actions offensive but I’m not in court asking to have them removed from our public roads and businesses that I frequent.
When I see the crosses, I see so much love. I think of my son, husband, parents, and all others that have gone before me and know that I am not in this alone, and how nice for a change to see
the that this person is loved and remembered. I see them as a tribute for many, as a symbol of love and remembrance. When I see the symbol I think of the love that others must have for this person named and I feel good knowing that in our country we can
display signs and symbols and share with others our love. As I pass, I nod or note in some way that I have taken the time to again raise tribute to all those that by no choice of their own are no longer here among us and that in my hectic day they are loved and not forgotten. You see, to some these crosses are nothing so leave them alone, to others they are for the fallen hero himself so show
respect, and to those like me, they are a gift in my day. All in the eyes of the beholder.................
Also, well said Wil H.
or while helping an elderly person take the time to sit and listen to their life story, how their family got here and what it was like for them growing up as a child. Obviously these people have the time to do these things and it would certainly be better time spent with a more positive end result. And as others have said, if they don’t believe in God then the sight of these crosses is meaningless to
them anyway. Something with no meaning can not be offensive, it is nothing, it is meaningless. Unless the sight of it invokes some sense of guilt or thought that an all mighty might be possible. I find their actions offensive but I’m not in court asking to have them removed from our public roads and businesses that I frequent.
When I see the crosses, I see so much love. I think of my son, husband, parents, and all others that have gone before me and know that I am not in this alone, and how nice for a change to see
the that this person is loved and remembered. I see them as a tribute for many, as a symbol of love and remembrance. When I see the symbol I think of the love that others must have for this person named and I feel good knowing that in our country we can
display signs and symbols and share with others our love. As I pass, I nod or note in some way that I have taken the time to again raise tribute to all those that by no choice of their own are no longer here among us and that in my hectic day they are loved and not forgotten. You see, to some these crosses are nothing so leave them alone, to others they are for the fallen hero himself so show
respect, and to those like me, they are a gift in my day. All in the eyes of the beholder.................
Also, well said Wil H.
Atheists should be banned and removed for always insulting those with diffrent beliefs then theres.
Idiots
BB
Idiots
BB
I'm atheist and I could care less if someone wants to put up a cross or not that is there business and beleif. I wish people would worry more about themselvs and less about what other people are doing or beleiving. you morons need to just shut up and let people have thier rights with out somebody winning about it. If you dont like it leave the country. Go ahead and place the cross's, its your right
Sorry Mr. Clark, you and your followers will need to rely solely on credit cards and checks. You can no longer use our currency and coins, for the words "In God We Trust" are inscripted on them. What are you going to try and do now? Sue the U.S. Mint and the Treasury Department.
are you all so stupid as to REALLY believe that our country was founded on religious freedom? Please don't be so naive. This country was founded on people who couldn't worship as they wanted where they lived, plus most of the large original land holders in the US had issues with the ruling monarchy so came here to do as THEY wanted NOT to allow everyone else to do as THEY wanted. The founding "fathers" of this country not only persecuted the indigenous peoples who were here far before them because they didn't worship as the "founding fathers" thought they should they also persecuted many that came after them...salem witch trials anyone?
and its somewhat ironic to me that so many of your protesting and shouting how its horrible that atheists are even able to live and breath would tell others that you are Christian. Is what you're saying/thinking/feeling really Christian? Do you really think "your" God or "your" Christ would support you being so judgmental of another? stating that its horrible they can be alive. get real. so you don't agree with their suit, ok. do you need to speak so disparingly of people you don't even know but somehow were worthy enough to live here? they didn't say "don't recognize these men in any way, they are merely asking that it be done in a different way" I don't agree or disagree I just think all of you self-righteous people need to realize what a negative impact you make on others who may not have accepted "your" religion...if you are the only Bible people are reading, what exactly are they learning? from what I've read here, anyone that disagrees with you has no right to live. nice. hence the reason that has led me to not attend any church while living here in Utah.
and its somewhat ironic to me that so many of your protesting and shouting how its horrible that atheists are even able to live and breath would tell others that you are Christian. Is what you're saying/thinking/feeling really Christian? Do you really think "your" God or "your" Christ would support you being so judgmental of another? stating that its horrible they can be alive. get real. so you don't agree with their suit, ok. do you need to speak so disparingly of people you don't even know but somehow were worthy enough to live here? they didn't say "don't recognize these men in any way, they are merely asking that it be done in a different way" I don't agree or disagree I just think all of you self-righteous people need to realize what a negative impact you make on others who may not have accepted "your" religion...if you are the only Bible people are reading, what exactly are they learning? from what I've read here, anyone that disagrees with you has no right to live. nice. hence the reason that has led me to not attend any church while living here in Utah.
I am so tired of the MINORITY ruining everything for the MAJORITY. If you don't like the crosses CLOSE your eyes when you drive by. And another thing STAY OUT of everyone elses lives. These officers died trying to keep all of us safe. Shame on you, SHAME on you for using their memories like this. They and their families have a right to have them memorialized and the majority believe that crosses do that. Again if you don't like it go to a country that won't let you believe in anything but what they tell you to believe in and see how that feels. The Men and Women whose names are on those crosses kept it so you could be safer and have the right to be ignorant like this. Just remember that. Stop thinking that everything and everyone everywhere should think like you. GROW UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Shall all of us atheists line up for the ovens now, or wait until the theocratic secret police bust down our doors and haul us off?
Wow! Such Christian love being displayed by all of you nice, decent Christian folks. I know that you all will love me unconditionally - all the way to the Atheist Detention Camp.
You folks have had your special priveleges for so long that you have come to regard them as Constitutional rights.
Sorry, but they aren't.
Your religion is one of many in America. It is unconstitutional to force your fellow taxpayers to buy things for your own flavor of religious wackjobbery.
If you want a cross to memorialize a fallen hero, then buy the darned thing yourself. I don't even have a problem with you placing it on public land - as long as I get to buy a giant atheist symbol and place it right next to your cross on public land.
As soon as you say:
"Oh no! Only us Christians get to do this, not all you other religions - and we're going to do it with your money."
...then you've got a fight on your hands.
And no - I will not leave the country, I will not sit down and shut up, and I will not be intimidated by a bunch of schoolyard bullies like yourselves.
Yes, you are the majority -- but "majority rule" is a synonym for "mob rule". It is a recipe for oppression, theocracy, and would mean the absolute destruction of America.
We're right, you're wrong. This *is* unconstitutional no matter how many of you squawk and squeal about it.
Get used to it.
Wow! Such Christian love being displayed by all of you nice, decent Christian folks. I know that you all will love me unconditionally - all the way to the Atheist Detention Camp.
You folks have had your special priveleges for so long that you have come to regard them as Constitutional rights.
Sorry, but they aren't.
Your religion is one of many in America. It is unconstitutional to force your fellow taxpayers to buy things for your own flavor of religious wackjobbery.
If you want a cross to memorialize a fallen hero, then buy the darned thing yourself. I don't even have a problem with you placing it on public land - as long as I get to buy a giant atheist symbol and place it right next to your cross on public land.
As soon as you say:
"Oh no! Only us Christians get to do this, not all you other religions - and we're going to do it with your money."
...then you've got a fight on your hands.
And no - I will not leave the country, I will not sit down and shut up, and I will not be intimidated by a bunch of schoolyard bullies like yourselves.
Yes, you are the majority -- but "majority rule" is a synonym for "mob rule". It is a recipe for oppression, theocracy, and would mean the absolute destruction of America.
We're right, you're wrong. This *is* unconstitutional no matter how many of you squawk and squeal about it.
Get used to it.
@Brent R. - That you're in favor of pulling up all those markers in Arlington National Cemetery bearing a cross, star of David, crescent moon or otherwise, (paid for with tax payer dollars) and grind them up to line your driveway? I see very little difference between the two scenarios. Both soldiers and Utah Highway Patrolmen serve this nation and are awarded this special recognition when they fall in the line of duty. This is a memorial to a fallen patriot and the individual and his family should have the say in what kind of memorial is raised. Not me and obviously not one concerned with his own agenda. If they choose a cross then a cross it is. If they want an ankh, then they get an ankh. I don't care, and I have a hard time understanding why you do.
@Lev Z. - Arlington National Cemetary allows the family to pick the symbol. The State of Utah Highway Patrol does not.
Therein lies the difference.
Instead they hem and haw and say things like,
"The cross doesn't really mean Christian only - it's a traditional, non-religious memorial."
Horse manure.
The cross is the cross. It's Christian. I get sick of Christians trying to disown the bloody thing. It's your symbol. Own it and quit trying to pretend that it *doesn't* mean what it means. We're not that stupid.
As soon as you can show me a Utah state statute or law that specifies that each fallen Highway Patrolman's family can choose whichever memorial symbol they want for their loved one's memorial -- and that the state will pay for it just like they pay for the Christian crosses -- then I'll shut up.
But it doesn't exist. It has always just been a "tradition" or an unwritten rule that Highway Patrolmen killed in the line of duty get memorialized with a Christian cross.
I appreciate the sentiment, but that doesn't make it any less unconstitutional.
Therein lies the difference.
Instead they hem and haw and say things like,
"The cross doesn't really mean Christian only - it's a traditional, non-religious memorial."
Horse manure.
The cross is the cross. It's Christian. I get sick of Christians trying to disown the bloody thing. It's your symbol. Own it and quit trying to pretend that it *doesn't* mean what it means. We're not that stupid.
As soon as you can show me a Utah state statute or law that specifies that each fallen Highway Patrolman's family can choose whichever memorial symbol they want for their loved one's memorial -- and that the state will pay for it just like they pay for the Christian crosses -- then I'll shut up.
But it doesn't exist. It has always just been a "tradition" or an unwritten rule that Highway Patrolmen killed in the line of duty get memorialized with a Christian cross.
I appreciate the sentiment, but that doesn't make it any less unconstitutional.
@Brent R. - Until one of the families does complain about the type of memorial used and is named in the suit, we do disagree. I have a hard time imagining a request for a different marker being turned down. "Um gee, sorry Mrs. grieving Hindu widow we already have this shiny new cross ready to go up." My point remains, outside of the family and the Highway patrol, no one has the right to dictate the manner of memorial used.
Is there a shape that isn't sacred to at least one religion in the world? Wouldn’t we be favoring that religion if we changed the shape? So is the secret to get a shape that more religions identify with? Ahh, but you would oppose that even more because it would be even more universally religious. Or is this whole production simply necessary because a perceived “Christian” symbol was used? If it had been an Ankh would we be having this lawsuit?
Thus following your line of reasoning, that government must not support any monument perceived as religious, the only symbol or monument you would allow taxpayer money to be spent on is the atheist symbol you referred to at the beginning. And given that Atheism is a belief system as much as any religion that too would be forbidden by the Constitution. So we should simply forget about the monument since somebody somewhere is going to be offended no matter what we do.
Is there a shape that isn't sacred to at least one religion in the world? Wouldn’t we be favoring that religion if we changed the shape? So is the secret to get a shape that more religions identify with? Ahh, but you would oppose that even more because it would be even more universally religious. Or is this whole production simply necessary because a perceived “Christian” symbol was used? If it had been an Ankh would we be having this lawsuit?
Thus following your line of reasoning, that government must not support any monument perceived as religious, the only symbol or monument you would allow taxpayer money to be spent on is the atheist symbol you referred to at the beginning. And given that Atheism is a belief system as much as any religion that too would be forbidden by the Constitution. So we should simply forget about the monument since somebody somewhere is going to be offended no matter what we do.
@Lev Z. - This lawsuit would make more sense if it was an atheist (or other religion or non-religion) family filing it. But to just have a "group" decide to sue . . . that is over-reaching in my book.
They should be trying to change the current standard of placing memorials, to allow family choice, not to have them removed altogether.
The current memorials should be left alone. If they want to have the families to have choice in the future, about what symbol they want for their fallen ones, then go for it.
I am more than happy to have my tax dollars pay for whatever symbol they choose. It is a small enough tribute.
But if you have ever lost a family member tragically, these symbols become very precious to you, just like their grave stones do. It says that these people mattered, falling in the line of duty. Don't take that away.
Leave the current memorials alone.
They should be trying to change the current standard of placing memorials, to allow family choice, not to have them removed altogether.
The current memorials should be left alone. If they want to have the families to have choice in the future, about what symbol they want for their fallen ones, then go for it.
I am more than happy to have my tax dollars pay for whatever symbol they choose. It is a small enough tribute.
But if you have ever lost a family member tragically, these symbols become very precious to you, just like their grave stones do. It says that these people mattered, falling in the line of duty. Don't take that away.
Leave the current memorials alone.
@Brent R. - Brent, finally, an atheist that talks in the correct voice and rhythm.
Let me take it from here…
[Atheist voice]
And just who does God think he is anyhow?
Trying to place himself above us.
To be so arrogant as to think he has any idea of how important and relevant we are.
What are we to do with Gods “omnipotence” anyhow admire it, respect it, or to speak the words, honor it? We don’t think so!
Who does he think he is anyhow? (Don’t answer that)
No God,
Until you stand on the tallest mountain and shout our names, we will not be denied our glory.
And even if you did stand on the mountains and call us by name we know you’re just showing off.
So it won’t work ,
Get used to it.
Let me take it from here…
[Atheist voice]
And just who does God think he is anyhow?
Trying to place himself above us.
To be so arrogant as to think he has any idea of how important and relevant we are.
What are we to do with Gods “omnipotence” anyhow admire it, respect it, or to speak the words, honor it? We don’t think so!
Who does he think he is anyhow? (Don’t answer that)
No God,
Until you stand on the tallest mountain and shout our names, we will not be denied our glory.
And even if you did stand on the mountains and call us by name we know you’re just showing off.
So it won’t work ,
Get used to it.
@Papa R. - Papa R., god does not exist. Atheists do not talk to your imaginary friend, any more than they hold conversations with Spiderman. They instead try to argue against the human beings like yourself who insist that their magical magic man in the sky exists and is relevant to our daily lives and must be canonized in our laws and legislation.
I have a news flash for you - fictional characters are less than *nothing* when it comes to real humans interacting with each other.
Quit spending your time talking to your invisible, imaginary friend. Instead try and spend your time helping *actual* humans and *actual* real people in a physical, reality-based way.
They don't need your prayer where you talk to yourself (creepy as hell), they need your assistance.
A life spent kowtowing to invisible, mythical beings is a life wasted.
I want my memorial to reflect who I was as a real person, not as a depressed subject to an imaginary, invisible, magical man in the sky who made it all with magic.
Grow up, Papa R. Santa Claus isn't real. Every child *knows* that.
I have a news flash for you - fictional characters are less than *nothing* when it comes to real humans interacting with each other.
Quit spending your time talking to your invisible, imaginary friend. Instead try and spend your time helping *actual* humans and *actual* real people in a physical, reality-based way.
They don't need your prayer where you talk to yourself (creepy as hell), they need your assistance.
A life spent kowtowing to invisible, mythical beings is a life wasted.
I want my memorial to reflect who I was as a real person, not as a depressed subject to an imaginary, invisible, magical man in the sky who made it all with magic.
Grow up, Papa R. Santa Claus isn't real. Every child *knows* that.
@Brent R. - Getting through that blogg, sorry didn't mean to infer an invisible friend.
Maybe it works better for you to say heck that was painful to read.
Somehow I got that you think a belief in god translates into a “life wasted”
Or those who believe in god aren’t
“helping *actual* humans and *actual* real people in a physical, reality-based way”.
Perhaps that is because of all of the numerous atheist groups filling that need. How many are there compared to religions anyhow and how much time money and effort do you think both groups contribute to the “helping *actual* humans”
I’ll bet the god-fearing crowd has bigger numbers, but I’m sure that is not relevant to you.
If you choose not to acknowledge god, and feel that “Santa Claus” is all the rational you need, that is your decision.
Children think that way!
And what are you afraid of anyhow.
THE TRUTH!
Maybe it works better for you to say heck that was painful to read.
Somehow I got that you think a belief in god translates into a “life wasted”
Or those who believe in god aren’t
“helping *actual* humans and *actual* real people in a physical, reality-based way”.
Perhaps that is because of all of the numerous atheist groups filling that need. How many are there compared to religions anyhow and how much time money and effort do you think both groups contribute to the “helping *actual* humans”
I’ll bet the god-fearing crowd has bigger numbers, but I’m sure that is not relevant to you.
If you choose not to acknowledge god, and feel that “Santa Claus” is all the rational you need, that is your decision.
Children think that way!
And what are you afraid of anyhow.
THE TRUTH!
People need to stop pushing their beliefs of on every one around them. If I lost a loved one (Officer or Highway patrol) or even someone in a car accident I would want to errect what ever I believed in. Either a flag, a post or cross. No one is going to tell me that I can not remember my love one with what ever it may be that I am comfortable with. What comforts me and others will not suit everyone but you will not choose how I remember MY loved one. If you do not like the cross or whatever go on about your business and ignore what bothers you. But do not try and make me do your bidding to your liking. Find something else to change in this world like child abuse or the starving of our own americans something useful...There are plenty of things to change in this world without stepping on beliefs.
I think the State should sell the parcels of land the crosses sit on to a private organization. That would pretty much solve the problem wouldn’t it? As long as it’s not a state owned entity that owns the property it wouldn’t matter what was on it.
@Tj P. - Or they could have just built the cross on private land to begin with and saved everyone a lot of trouble. Although maybe you're onto something. If we sell all government land to the church, then we can put up crosses all over the place and atheists won't be able to do anything about it. We won't even need the Constitution anymore! Brilliant!
I don't have a problem with crosses. Please don't paint all of us atheists with the same brush. We're not all activists you know. I like to treat everyone else how I wish to be treated, which includes not bashing other groups- regardless of who they do or do not worship.
You are so angry you may be harming your own health. Go sit in your lazy boy and pet your dog. Have a cool one and just relax.
I am A MORMON and A Police Officer..
these Men and Women, paid the "Ultimate" sacrifice, in serving their fellow man..
THEY DESERVE TO BE MEMORIALIZED
as for you Athiest out there, all I can say is, If you are Living like there is no GOD,you better hope your right..the day of reconing is coming.
these Men and Women, paid the "Ultimate" sacrifice, in serving their fellow man..
THEY DESERVE TO BE MEMORIALIZED
as for you Athiest out there, all I can say is, If you are Living like there is no GOD,you better hope your right..the day of reconing is coming.
To the poster who is a "Mormon and a Police Officer:" there is not enough evidence for god, I am living like there is no god, and I am doing fine. Thank you for your "concern."
May I ask what your perception of "living like there is no god" is? Do I rob banks? Eat babies? Kill cute, fluffy kittens? Surely there must be evidence of all this. Maybe you can find it and bring me up on charges or something. Throw me in jail, get me hospitalized, eject me from my home state and send me to exile in some desert wasteland or some other horrible place that is not America. That would be so neat. I'd love to be oppressed. Would love to hear your comments.
May I ask what your perception of "living like there is no god" is? Do I rob banks? Eat babies? Kill cute, fluffy kittens? Surely there must be evidence of all this. Maybe you can find it and bring me up on charges or something. Throw me in jail, get me hospitalized, eject me from my home state and send me to exile in some desert wasteland or some other horrible place that is not America. That would be so neat. I'd love to be oppressed. Would love to hear your comments.
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8:03am - Fri Aug 04th, 2006
10:44am - Fri Aug 04th, 2006
10:48am - Fri Aug 04th, 2006
11:13am - Fri Aug 04th, 2006
How'd the MORMON state ever allow a catholic symbol like this to be perpetuated?
1:49pm - Fri Aug 04th, 2006
2:05pm - Fri Aug 04th, 2006
3:27pm - Fri Aug 04th, 2006
4:10pm - Fri Aug 04th, 2006
Crosses are for anyone who believes in Christ.
MORMONS may not wear them around their neck, but the cross is still important to them. Christ hung from it that is important and MORMON'S do believe in that.
Oh and if we are such a MORMON state how did we get atheists, Catholics, or any other people here??? And why are YOU in the MORMON state????