Huntsman Calls for Expanded Health Care, Ethics Reform
It is an ambitious plan. The Governor isn't afraid to invest a lot of money in state priorities that have been crying for cash for years. January 16th, 2007 @ 10:00pm
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Hey gov please build a road from the freeway to Redwood so we can get to Saratoga in less than an hour from lehi......How come pleasant grove can cut a road through the field but we can't....come on saratoga...
@Shayne B. - That is definatly a problem area. Its already on the books for redwood to be widened to a 5 lane road as soon as the environmental study has finished. Projected date to finish the road is 2009. So soon enough we'll be complaining about the construction traffic. It will be nicknamed the 2 years of hell, just wait unil the backups start on that one.
Then there is the tollway they want to build along west vally to eagle mountain. Ya they pretended to give us a choice on that, but in the end it will be a toll-way, because our road taxes only pay for the east side of the SL valley.
Government needs to learn to prioratize:
State Employee's
Education.
Law enforcement.
State utilities.
then you can hash out the rest.
stop leaving the important budget decisions for last, so you have an excuse to get out of voting for state raises because the session ended.
As for our governer, I'm still with holding judgement.
Then there is the tollway they want to build along west vally to eagle mountain. Ya they pretended to give us a choice on that, but in the end it will be a toll-way, because our road taxes only pay for the east side of the SL valley.
Government needs to learn to prioratize:
State Employee's
Education.
Law enforcement.
State utilities.
then you can hash out the rest.
stop leaving the important budget decisions for last, so you have an excuse to get out of voting for state raises because the session ended.
As for our governer, I'm still with holding judgement.
@Puzzle - You move 45 miles out away from the metropolitain area, and expect to commute over 90 miles a day, and now demand big wide, multi lane roads to get you back to civilization. And your tax dollars are not enough to pay the massive cost. So you want us to pay? the rest of us? those that actually live in the same county as our jobs? Well sir, you can go to H.E. Double Hockey sticks. And go fast.
Thinking is not an option
@Bajo de perro - Not everyone that lives in Eagle Mountain and Saratoga Springs works in SLC. I live in Eagle Mountain and my commute takes me a full 20 seconds to get to my home office. I know many other people in Eagle Mountain that also work from home or work in Lehi, American Fork, or the Provo/Orem area.
You gotta love those uneducated assumptions. They really tell a lot about an individual.
You gotta love those uneducated assumptions. They really tell a lot about an individual.
You tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.
@Puzzle - I would put education at #1, health care at #2, and then state employees and law enforcement. So stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
@Puzzle - By the time they are done UDOT will have spent $100 million widening and modernizing Redwood Road.
Now UTA gets the cash and go ahead to put three TRAX crossings on Redwood Road and lower the gates a total of about 200 times a day.
That will help traffic a lot!
This is brain-off transportation planning! But, it is O.K. for the sheepul.
By the way, the main beneficiaries of the TrAX linjes are downtown workers. Let the suburbs roast in a congestion conflagration.
Now UTA gets the cash and go ahead to put three TRAX crossings on Redwood Road and lower the gates a total of about 200 times a day.
That will help traffic a lot!
This is brain-off transportation planning! But, it is O.K. for the sheepul.
By the way, the main beneficiaries of the TrAX linjes are downtown workers. Let the suburbs roast in a congestion conflagration.
Brigham's Advocate
@Puzzle - I agree with your prioritie list. Every year the head of the deparments go up to capital hill and every year the media brings up things that aren't even imortant. The legeslator just needs to listen to it's public employees they know what the state realy needs their the one running things on the ground.
@Adam H. - The Legislature works for the people of Utah. That is who they should listen to, NOT STATE EMPLOYEES. If you remember it is the people of the state of Utah that runs things.
Another person that has been duped!!!!!
Oh, and beleive me I work with State Employees all day long, and the only thing they are doing is running, and it is not on the ground.
Another person that has been duped!!!!!
Oh, and beleive me I work with State Employees all day long, and the only thing they are doing is running, and it is not on the ground.
@Troy S. - Legislatures work for themselves after they get voted into office. They have their own agenda's and thats all their worried about. It's all about politics for them they don't know whats going on in the real world. Our State employees are the most underpaid workers in the western us.
I hope you'll talk about the constant drain on our states resources by the illegal aliens and how you're going to fix it.
I also hope that you'll discuss that you'll crack down on illegal aliens working here by using other people's SSN's..
And finally, send some of my money back to me... You should be ashamed that your people that figure out the states budget have done such a poor job and such be let go.. A 1.6 billion dollar budget is shameful, that's 1600 millions over payment...
I also hope that you'll discuss that you'll crack down on illegal aliens working here by using other people's SSN's..
And finally, send some of my money back to me... You should be ashamed that your people that figure out the states budget have done such a poor job and such be let go.. A 1.6 billion dollar budget is shameful, that's 1600 millions over payment...
@. - You shouldn't just mention illegals when talking about working the system. How many of the over-sized Utah families are sucking from the state welfare program? There are many folks here who mindlessly pump out children without looking forward to the financial impact it will have. Then if things go bad, they stand there with their hand out hoping for state and church assistance.
Don't have them if you can't afford them.
Don't have them if you can't afford them.
@Robert D. - I agree 100 percent with your comments on large families draining our welfare system, but we cannot continue to ignore the fact that illegal immigrants are also draining our healthcare, education and law enforcement.
@T T. - Would forced sterilization help plug the drain?
Revenge will come when the truth is told
@Capt. john t. booker - We could begin by parking a mobile vasectomy trailer in front of WalMart. Much like the spay and neuter van the Humane Society uses.
@Robert D. - Most of the people that are having large families and draining the system dry "ARE THE ILLEGALS". The vast majority, that have large families, both parents work and survive on their own.
@Tami S. - My Neighbors have about 20 people living in one house. Atleast they are efficient. And they are all Illegals, except for the kids.
Revenge will come when the truth is told
@Capt. john t. booker - They should go to JAIL. Hey, maybe Gov. Huntsman will invite them to his house for Sunday dinner. He seems to really like illegal anything.
@Tami S. - Stats please? And, while your at it, please find the stats that tell us how many of their children are illegal!!!
Good luck.
Good luck.
@Rachael C. - It shouldn't because if their parents were working legally in the US they wouldn't be draining the system.
------------------
Bobert S. Tangent
Bobert S. Tangent
@Bobert - I was simply asking Tami for the stats she claims to know. She stated that there are more illegals with large families on welfare than actual citizens, which I do not believe. Would you happen to have those numbers? Also, people can still be eligible for public assistance while "legally" working, just a little fyi.
@Rachael C. - I was under the impression that illegal immigrants, as well as certain new legals are not elligible for welfare or public assistance as adults. although, the children are eligible for medicaid, SChIP, as well as free school lunches.
@Man down - Bobert said that "if their parents were working legally in the US they wouldn't be draining the system." I was simply correcting Bobert in the fact that even people that do work here legally can still be eligible for public assistance.
@Rachael C. - Kind of hard to keep stats on people that dont pay taxes,dont have SS numbers(except for stolen ones),dont report any of their income,skip out on paying their medical bills,and just come and go as they please across the border.
Fighting the good fight against the filthy stench known as liberalism and political correctness
@Gunther - on a stolen social security number you are paying taxes . Something that is lost on the anti immigration bigots
@James J. - When they claim 15 dependents on said stolen social security number they do not pay FICA taxes. And pray your number is not the one that is being used illegally. The next time you file a tax return and the IRS shows you’ve earned more than you are reporting they come down on you like a (fill in the blank).
By the way, your bias is showing!
By the way, your bias is showing!
@Ben lurkin - is an overblown issue used by the likes of Lou Dobbs , Bill Oreilly and others to get you to listen to their tv shows . Illegals do the crappy jobs americans wont do . Bush is right at least on this issue.
@James J. - Youre full of you know what.I know a heck of a lot Americans who would gladly do construction.Problem is,greedy contractors wont pay a living wage.Illegals can live on those wages cause they get all kinds of freebies from Unkle Sam that Americans cant qualify for.
Fighting the good fight against the filthy stench known as liberalism and political correctness
@James J. - Why don't you tell that to the family who's vehicle was t-boned by a drunk illegal around Christmas. Didn't three of them die? Yes - if he wasn't here in the first place it wouldn't have happened now would it. Don't like that example? I can give you lots more. How about the disproportionate number of crimes being committed by illegals? Granted, there are some good people that are illegal; there are also a lot that aren’t and our government has utterly failed in protecting us from them.
I'm not against immigration. Let's do it legally so we know, and can control, who is coming here. This illegal stuff just leads to abuse. Crappy jobs? They get paid less because employers know they can get away with it. If you pay $100/hr, for example, to pick crops, I, for one, will be there. This situation isn't fair to either them or us and should be eliminated. The only ones that seem to be benefiting are the Republicrats and their power structure(s).
You sound as if you are somehow benefitting from this situation by your rant about the idiot talk show hosts you reference. Quit being part of the problem.
I'm not against immigration. Let's do it legally so we know, and can control, who is coming here. This illegal stuff just leads to abuse. Crappy jobs? They get paid less because employers know they can get away with it. If you pay $100/hr, for example, to pick crops, I, for one, will be there. This situation isn't fair to either them or us and should be eliminated. The only ones that seem to be benefiting are the Republicrats and their power structure(s).
You sound as if you are somehow benefitting from this situation by your rant about the idiot talk show hosts you reference. Quit being part of the problem.
@Robert D. - People that have huge families are welcome to do that thanks to the freedoms of our country. In China only one child per couple is allowed. But you should be financially stable enough to support those children and not rely on government and church resources. Granted most of these people are tax payers and work but their tax dollars dont make up for the people who work hard and make decent livings without relying on welfare assistance or those from the church who donate thousands a year!!
@Jason M. - I have 8 children. I am educated and have a Master's degree. My wife has a bachelor's. We are not on welfare. We recieve no entitlement programs: not even reduced price lunch. I admit that my children attend public school. My children are insured. Niether my wife nor I come from wealthy families. I recieved no help from my parents to go to school. I did however, take advantage of grants to go to school. I will also be paying off student loans for quite a while yet. We do not receive church aid.
I have worked hard, as has my wife, to get to where I am today. It has always been a struggle upward. I do not approve of welfare as a career and resent people who feel entitled to live thier entire lives on welfare. I also resent people who disparage large families.
Mr Huntsman: Please give my money back. There is no such thing as a surplus. There is no difference in taking money with a gun, or taking too much with the force of a government agency!
I have worked hard, as has my wife, to get to where I am today. It has always been a struggle upward. I do not approve of welfare as a career and resent people who feel entitled to live thier entire lives on welfare. I also resent people who disparage large families.
Mr Huntsman: Please give my money back. There is no such thing as a surplus. There is no difference in taking money with a gun, or taking too much with the force of a government agency!
be calm
@Revenant - I was tracking with you until you took that wild turn down the "give my money back" lane. You have SO many kids in the public school system, you take a huge tax deduction for all those kids (which is a form of welfare and entitlement for breeding), and now you want money back? Did you even end up paying any taxes? I doubt you paid enough in taxes to get much back. Your tax deductions are like taking money from the rest of us using the power of the same agency you call a thief. Why should you get tax deductions (welfare and entitlements) for having kids? You chose to have them. You are on a form welfare Revenant!
I send my kids to private school at $15,000+ a kid, and I'm not asking for money back from the surplus. In fact I would pay more to educate the kids of Utah and give teachers a raise. I am also against tax vouchers because they violate the separation of church and state and because they would hurt public education--the same public education that is educating your quiver of kids, BUT NOT MINE. You resent people disparaging your large welfare-via-tax-deductions family? I resent your self-righteous demands for getting "your money" back, while I am paying for your kids' education and you are enjoying huge tax deductions.
I send my kids to private school at $15,000+ a kid, and I'm not asking for money back from the surplus. In fact I would pay more to educate the kids of Utah and give teachers a raise. I am also against tax vouchers because they violate the separation of church and state and because they would hurt public education--the same public education that is educating your quiver of kids, BUT NOT MINE. You resent people disparaging your large welfare-via-tax-deductions family? I resent your self-righteous demands for getting "your money" back, while I am paying for your kids' education and you are enjoying huge tax deductions.
@Sa - It would appear another individual that has not learned the lessons of history. Public Education is what destroyed Greece. Read your history books. Those that have children are only supporting your retirement for the future. Yes, that is because you are not willing to have enough to cover. So you need to pay your dues now so you can get paid back later. So for crying out loud quit whining. Also, history has shown that dumping money into public schools does not educate children. It actually does the opposite. Next time do your research rather then listening to the UEA, teachers, adminsitrators, and government officials that have brain washed you. Yes, you have been duped. Now go study and then try and make the same comments. Just so you know!! Many of the parents in other countries would not send there kids to the United States for a public school education for a million bucks. Matter in fact, they will tell you that kids are stupid in America, and we are when you compare our test scores.
I do have to complement you on having your kids in a Private School. That is a step up. Bye!!
I do have to complement you on having your kids in a Private School. That is a step up. Bye!!
@Troy S. - History provides thousands of contradictory lessons. These lessons aren't simple objective truths to be plucked from some mythical Tree of Truth. They are assumptions based in interpretations in a context of traditions, biases and emotions. What were the lessons of Vietnam?
In my opinion, your assumption that public education destroyed Greece is simplistic to the point of being wrong. I believe the destruction of a society is always complex and has multiple causes.
I choose to vote to support teachers with pay raises and other real support mainly because I respect them. Anyone who can teach in Utah and maintain a professional and enthusiastic attitude deserves to be rewarded.
I don't share your loathing of public education or teachers. I don't send my kids to public school because the schools are underfunded. It is not because the teachers are any less capable or caring. My two youngest kids are in classes that have a teacher-to-student ratio that is half that of the public schools. I know it makes a difference. I see it.
You are presumptuous to talk of brain washing and being duped. You don't know me. You don't know why I believe what I believe. I find your approach divisive, crude, arrogant and childish.
I didn't say I am not willing to pay to educate Revenant's eight kids in the public schools. I clearly said I am very willing to do so. I do resent his demands to have "his money" given back to him, when he collects tens of thousands of dollars in entitlements via tax deductions.
How are Revenant's kids going to support me in my retirement? I have diversified retirement resources, and I assure you, I won't be relying on what Revenant's eight children put into Social Security to support me. Do you plan to live off of Social Security or a vulnerable pension? If so, your statement may be accurate for you. If it is, you have a good reason to be concerned about how much people are putting into your safety net.
Perhaps you are saying that his kids will be working for me and they need to be well educated to do so. I agree with you, if this is your point. One reason I support Utah's public schools is that I hire people who have gone through the public schools, and I need well-educated employees.
This is also why I don't want them to be taught intelligent design and other religious and faith--based teachings in school. I rely on workers with strong scientific minds. I don't care if they learn about prayer and other faith-based superstitions in their families and churches, but I don't need my employees prayers; I need their honesty and hard work and their critical, creative and applied thinking.
In my opinion, your assumption that public education destroyed Greece is simplistic to the point of being wrong. I believe the destruction of a society is always complex and has multiple causes.
I choose to vote to support teachers with pay raises and other real support mainly because I respect them. Anyone who can teach in Utah and maintain a professional and enthusiastic attitude deserves to be rewarded.
I don't share your loathing of public education or teachers. I don't send my kids to public school because the schools are underfunded. It is not because the teachers are any less capable or caring. My two youngest kids are in classes that have a teacher-to-student ratio that is half that of the public schools. I know it makes a difference. I see it.
You are presumptuous to talk of brain washing and being duped. You don't know me. You don't know why I believe what I believe. I find your approach divisive, crude, arrogant and childish.
I didn't say I am not willing to pay to educate Revenant's eight kids in the public schools. I clearly said I am very willing to do so. I do resent his demands to have "his money" given back to him, when he collects tens of thousands of dollars in entitlements via tax deductions.
How are Revenant's kids going to support me in my retirement? I have diversified retirement resources, and I assure you, I won't be relying on what Revenant's eight children put into Social Security to support me. Do you plan to live off of Social Security or a vulnerable pension? If so, your statement may be accurate for you. If it is, you have a good reason to be concerned about how much people are putting into your safety net.
Perhaps you are saying that his kids will be working for me and they need to be well educated to do so. I agree with you, if this is your point. One reason I support Utah's public schools is that I hire people who have gone through the public schools, and I need well-educated employees.
This is also why I don't want them to be taught intelligent design and other religious and faith--based teachings in school. I rely on workers with strong scientific minds. I don't care if they learn about prayer and other faith-based superstitions in their families and churches, but I don't need my employees prayers; I need their honesty and hard work and their critical, creative and applied thinking.
@Sa - to you hiring my kids if you need good employees that are well educated and if you pay well. I do not intend to rely on social security or my pension either. But any retirement will be a nice supplement.
If you do not want the social security, don't accept it. The deductions do not add up to tens of thousands per year, But over time they do.
You seem awefully bitter.
I hope that you have a better day tomorrow.
If you do not want the social security, don't accept it. The deductions do not add up to tens of thousands per year, But over time they do.
You seem awefully bitter.
I hope that you have a better day tomorrow.
Abstract thought - try it
@Revenant - Did you read the comment from Troy to which I replied? I don't agree with all of what you wrote, but you seem to be a reasonable and decent person. I hope you didn't assume I had posted the comment to you; I was replying to Troy. I find him boorish.
@Sa - It is amusing to hear a teacher inform me on the mythical Tree of Truths in regards to history. However, that is merely your supposition. When, one studies history it allows them to see not only the mistakes, but to see how one has misconstrued reality as it was in motion. It appears that you may not really understand the reason for studying history. Is it to appear haughty, intellectual, or convincing? The public school system used history to determine who was intelligent, and who was obtuse. Some today may still agree. For me the lessons of life are learned in history. It is commonly acknowledged that an understanding of the past is fundamental to an understanding of the present. The analysis and interpretation of history provide an essential context for evaluating contemporary institutions, politics, and cultures. Understanding the present configuration of society is not the only reason to study the past; history also provides unique insight into human nature and human civilization. By demanding that we see the world through the eyes of others, we develop a sense of context and coherence while recognizing complexity and ambiguity, and that we confront the record not only of human achievement but also of human failure, cruelty, and barbarity, the study of history provides us with a richly-textured, substantive framework for understanding the human condition and grappling with moral questions and problems. History is essential in the quest for wisdom and virtue.
Maybe I was a bit harsh in alienating you on the subject of Ancient Greece. Sometimes one may find himself hasty to use such examples, and overlook the fact that others may not have studied the dogma of the time and may appear disdain.
I have no animosity towards teachers. Unfortunately, you work for an organization that breathes by taking money that is not always rightfully deserved. The private sector is able to function on less money then the public institutions of government. When money is freely surrendered to public school institutions, and free tuition is proposed and paid into that system alone we have a monopoly of funds. As long as those funds are retained with in that system, and no obligatory competition is required, we have a system that will fail to effectively edify those being taught. Studies have been done to show that the more money paid into the system, will not elevate grades or enhance the teaching environment. Actually, it is to the contrary.
You may have found my approach arrogant, and disliking, but I find that resenting someone who simply wants his money back when they have been over charged is rightfully there’s to ask for it back. Matter in fact, I find it very selfish, and dishonest you would rather take Revenant's money without asking. Maybe Revenant’s would like to use that money to feed his family. You mentioned the thousands Revenant’s gets from having 8 kids. Let me teach you a bit on how the IRS/Government works. Just because one has 8 kids does not mean you get tens of thousands of dollars. In fact, I would like you to show me the code that will pay him the tens of thousands of dollars for having 8 children? Please be my guest! Call your accountant, and I will have my accountant that is employed by me call your accountant and correct him. I have 4 kids and receive a whole whopping $1,600.00 dollars in deductions. Yet, you have 2 kids and probably get the full $800.00 per child credit. Now that is not fair? (Lol) I have 2 more kids, and get the same deduction? Wow, only in America would I hear someone cry fowl that someone should get a better deduction then another for having more children. I can tell you that I pay over $70,000.00 a year in taxes after deductions.
Then you write to tell me you hire employees that do brain wash people in the sciences. Wow, that is a wonderful statement, and goal. That is why my children are not taught in your program, and another reason to give me my money back. When will you educate children with real facts, rather then your silly theories? I have my children taught by a private teacher, and I make sure that my children are informed on all forms of theories and facts. Remember that history is not a superstition, it is called history. That includes the Bible. Oh, and remember our entire judicial system was designed by the so called intelligent design(Religion).
Try my job for a day, and I guarantee you that even religious folk are smart and work hard. It is okay if people are religious. You don’t need to show a lack of respect to there beliefs. That’s all you have to, is your beliefs. I take it you are not religious, and maybe atheist?? MAY GOD BLESS YOU!!
Maybe I was a bit harsh in alienating you on the subject of Ancient Greece. Sometimes one may find himself hasty to use such examples, and overlook the fact that others may not have studied the dogma of the time and may appear disdain.
I have no animosity towards teachers. Unfortunately, you work for an organization that breathes by taking money that is not always rightfully deserved. The private sector is able to function on less money then the public institutions of government. When money is freely surrendered to public school institutions, and free tuition is proposed and paid into that system alone we have a monopoly of funds. As long as those funds are retained with in that system, and no obligatory competition is required, we have a system that will fail to effectively edify those being taught. Studies have been done to show that the more money paid into the system, will not elevate grades or enhance the teaching environment. Actually, it is to the contrary.
You may have found my approach arrogant, and disliking, but I find that resenting someone who simply wants his money back when they have been over charged is rightfully there’s to ask for it back. Matter in fact, I find it very selfish, and dishonest you would rather take Revenant's money without asking. Maybe Revenant’s would like to use that money to feed his family. You mentioned the thousands Revenant’s gets from having 8 kids. Let me teach you a bit on how the IRS/Government works. Just because one has 8 kids does not mean you get tens of thousands of dollars. In fact, I would like you to show me the code that will pay him the tens of thousands of dollars for having 8 children? Please be my guest! Call your accountant, and I will have my accountant that is employed by me call your accountant and correct him. I have 4 kids and receive a whole whopping $1,600.00 dollars in deductions. Yet, you have 2 kids and probably get the full $800.00 per child credit. Now that is not fair? (Lol) I have 2 more kids, and get the same deduction? Wow, only in America would I hear someone cry fowl that someone should get a better deduction then another for having more children. I can tell you that I pay over $70,000.00 a year in taxes after deductions.
Then you write to tell me you hire employees that do brain wash people in the sciences. Wow, that is a wonderful statement, and goal. That is why my children are not taught in your program, and another reason to give me my money back. When will you educate children with real facts, rather then your silly theories? I have my children taught by a private teacher, and I make sure that my children are informed on all forms of theories and facts. Remember that history is not a superstition, it is called history. That includes the Bible. Oh, and remember our entire judicial system was designed by the so called intelligent design(Religion).
Try my job for a day, and I guarantee you that even religious folk are smart and work hard. It is okay if people are religious. You don’t need to show a lack of respect to there beliefs. That’s all you have to, is your beliefs. I take it you are not religious, and maybe atheist?? MAY GOD BLESS YOU!!
@Troy S. - I'm not even certain to whom you are replying. I recognize some vague references to what I wrote, but not enough to be certain.
I am not a teacher. I WAS a teacher long ago, and the experience contributes to my respect and empathy for what they do.
I have owned my own business for almost two decades. It is very much a part of the private sector. I do have government contracts, but most of my work is for corporate clients. (BTW, am I suppose to be impressed that you pay $70,000 in taxes? How is that relevant to the discussion? Am I suppose to think that how much you pay in taxes indicated how valid your arguments are? Is my argument more valid because I pay many times that in personal and business taxes? What's your point?)
I didn't say I have only two kids.
I didn't say religious people don't work hard or aren't intelligent. A majority of my employees are religious. All my employees work hard. Their religion is irrelevant to me; I hire them for other reasons. My point was that schools should stay out of the religion business. It is bad for the schools and bad for religion. Religion, like business, is strengthened by the free market. When religion is coerced or established by the government, it becomes weak.
I did not say studying history is not important. I disagree with your interpretation of interpreting and applying history. I believe interpreting and applying history is much more contextual and subjective than you suggest. Our judicial system was designed by religion? What does that even mean? Which of the Ten Commandments are even codifiable into laws?
You use histroy like a Neanderthal with a cudgel. You arrogantly assume that I have not studied Greek history because I think your assessment that public education destroyed greek society is overly simplistic. You use history like a Neanderthal with a cudgle.
I'm wasting my time. You refer to so many things I didn't write, I assume you aren't even replying to my comments. I feel as if I hit the button on a wind-up toy.
I am not a teacher. I WAS a teacher long ago, and the experience contributes to my respect and empathy for what they do.
I have owned my own business for almost two decades. It is very much a part of the private sector. I do have government contracts, but most of my work is for corporate clients. (BTW, am I suppose to be impressed that you pay $70,000 in taxes? How is that relevant to the discussion? Am I suppose to think that how much you pay in taxes indicated how valid your arguments are? Is my argument more valid because I pay many times that in personal and business taxes? What's your point?)
I didn't say I have only two kids.
I didn't say religious people don't work hard or aren't intelligent. A majority of my employees are religious. All my employees work hard. Their religion is irrelevant to me; I hire them for other reasons. My point was that schools should stay out of the religion business. It is bad for the schools and bad for religion. Religion, like business, is strengthened by the free market. When religion is coerced or established by the government, it becomes weak.
I did not say studying history is not important. I disagree with your interpretation of interpreting and applying history. I believe interpreting and applying history is much more contextual and subjective than you suggest. Our judicial system was designed by religion? What does that even mean? Which of the Ten Commandments are even codifiable into laws?
You use histroy like a Neanderthal with a cudgel. You arrogantly assume that I have not studied Greek history because I think your assessment that public education destroyed greek society is overly simplistic. You use history like a Neanderthal with a cudgle.
I'm wasting my time. You refer to so many things I didn't write, I assume you aren't even replying to my comments. I feel as if I hit the button on a wind-up toy.
@Sa - I can see your point of view. Thank you for helping to educate my children. Please remember to thank them when they pay your social security (If the politicians do not take it away before we get there). However, part of my point of view comes from having paid taxes elsewhere.
I lived in Vancouver, WA and worked in Portland Oregon before returning to Utah. Washington had no income tax and relied upon sales and property taxes for income. They had no sales tax on food (and no income tax). They also had smaller classroom sizes and spent much more on education than Utah. I must admit, though, that thier education was far inferior to that provided here in the Utah schools.
Since I worked in Oregon, I paid Oregon-out-of-state income tax. Oregon has no sales tax. Thier income tax was much less than the income tax here in Utah. They also spend far more on education than Utah does. They also have a far inferior quality of education in the public schools. One high school in Gresham had a drop out rate near 60% (really 60%)when we were there about 4-5 years ago.
So, my point is that if they can spend more on education with much lower taxes, we, in Utah, should be able to spend more and lower our taxes.
It is your choice to place your kids in private schools. It does seem to be a bit elitist, but a more socially responsible effort may be to send your kids to public school and work to improve the quality of the public school education.
The deductions are not a form of welfare. They are an acknowledgement that the government would rather let me spend the money to support the kids than for them to have to give it back to me to support the kids.
Finally, for perspective on big families, it might be emlightening to look at Europe. Family size there has shrunk dramatically. Many couples choose, as is thier right, to have one, or no, children. This has depleted the work force and tax base to the point that they allow immigration almost unchecked. In places thier very culture is in danger of collapse. By the way, the immigrants are not as culturally sensitive as the Europeans. They are to the point that some countries mandate that both parents be given 2 years off of work and receive full pay for up to 2 years. (16 years off, paid to play with and raise the kids - if they allowed polygamy I could probably retire early and live well - I hope that you have a sense of humor)
I am sorry that this is so long, but I have read some of your other posts and we share many of the same values. I respect that you have been a teacher and hope that you are prospering now. At this point I figure noone else is reading, so I hope that I have not wasted too much of your time.
Thank you
I lived in Vancouver, WA and worked in Portland Oregon before returning to Utah. Washington had no income tax and relied upon sales and property taxes for income. They had no sales tax on food (and no income tax). They also had smaller classroom sizes and spent much more on education than Utah. I must admit, though, that thier education was far inferior to that provided here in the Utah schools.
Since I worked in Oregon, I paid Oregon-out-of-state income tax. Oregon has no sales tax. Thier income tax was much less than the income tax here in Utah. They also spend far more on education than Utah does. They also have a far inferior quality of education in the public schools. One high school in Gresham had a drop out rate near 60% (really 60%)when we were there about 4-5 years ago.
So, my point is that if they can spend more on education with much lower taxes, we, in Utah, should be able to spend more and lower our taxes.
It is your choice to place your kids in private schools. It does seem to be a bit elitist, but a more socially responsible effort may be to send your kids to public school and work to improve the quality of the public school education.
The deductions are not a form of welfare. They are an acknowledgement that the government would rather let me spend the money to support the kids than for them to have to give it back to me to support the kids.
Finally, for perspective on big families, it might be emlightening to look at Europe. Family size there has shrunk dramatically. Many couples choose, as is thier right, to have one, or no, children. This has depleted the work force and tax base to the point that they allow immigration almost unchecked. In places thier very culture is in danger of collapse. By the way, the immigrants are not as culturally sensitive as the Europeans. They are to the point that some countries mandate that both parents be given 2 years off of work and receive full pay for up to 2 years. (16 years off, paid to play with and raise the kids - if they allowed polygamy I could probably retire early and live well - I hope that you have a sense of humor)
I am sorry that this is so long, but I have read some of your other posts and we share many of the same values. I respect that you have been a teacher and hope that you are prospering now. At this point I figure noone else is reading, so I hope that I have not wasted too much of your time.
Thank you
Abstract thought - try it
@Revenant - I repect your right to choose to raise a large family. I don't even mind paying more in taxes to ensure their teachers are paid better and the class sizes are smaller.
The reason Utah contributes less per student is because so many Utahns have such large families. It is simple economics. We have fewer tax payers per student. When you allow for a deduction for each child on top of that, it compounds the challenge of funding education.
I have a home, a business, and children; therefore, I too enjoy many entitlements in the form of tax deductions. It is a form of welfare for homeowners, business owners, and parents. Tax deductions encourage behaviors that government finds beneficial. Government encourages through entitlements.
Some taxes and tax policies certainly enourage the wrong things and discourage things we should encourage. The wealthy enjoy welfare as much or more than the poor. I write off a great deal because I own a business (and because I have a very smart tax attorney). Some of these deductions encourage me to reinvest in my business (usually a good thing for society), while others encourage me to buy vehicles with a higher gross vehicle weight, so I can write more off in deductions (probably not so good for society or the environment). This is corporate welfare and these are entitlements just as much as the low income deductions. I take advantage of almost all legal deductions I can. I'm happy to do so. I am accepting entitlements just as much as someone who makes minimum wage does. I am on welfare as much or more than they are. They earn their pay and contribute with minimal return on their investment. The tax laws favor me. My skills are considered more valuable economically and I have money to invest, so I am on the earning side of interest, and this means I get to take advantage of the tax laws in ways the indigent can't. I am a corporate welfare recipient. I'm not better because of this. I am simply more economically fortunate. This says nothing about my deeper worth as a person.
I know many tax laws motivate and encourage the wrong things. I don't think having lots of children is an inherently bad or wrong thing, but I'm not convinced having large families is the salvation of our society either. It has costs and benefits. We need to be creative and abundant in finding solutions to challenges whether they come from diminishing populations or diminishing resources. I do have a problem with many religious people who deny that diminishing resources is ever a concern. In my opinion, it is faith-based ignorance and magical thinking to assume that increased consumption can go unchecked. This concerns me.
I don't plan on living off Social Security, so I'm not relying on the next generation contributing to Social Security. A system that takes so much money in and has such poor returns is only possible because the money is being used for other things. I feel for those who will be living off their Social Security payments. The system is broken and having large families is a poor fix for a broken system.
Finally, I don't see why sending my kids to a private school is elitest (I assume you mean this in a pejorative sense), or why is is better for the public schools for me to send my kids there. I'm saving the public schools a lot of money. They collect the taxes, but my kids don't attend so they don't cost the system anything. I take a double hit; they get a double gain. I'm happy to do it for the sake of the public schools, especially the teachers.
I send my kids to private school because I feel obligated as a parent to do everything I can to help them. The class sizes are much smaller. They get more individual attention. I also like the uniforms and the school's focus on a liberal education. I don't think my kids are elite or should be given special privileges because of this. They should be judged on their character and competency just as anyone. I'm against elitist privileges, but I'm in favor of parents giving their children optimal opportunities at becoming excellent. My kids are not excellent because they go to a private school, but I hope going there will help them become excellent, including in character and kindness. Competency is critical, but it can't ensure a good life alone. I expect my children to be able to reason well and to develop many skills, but I also want them to good people and love learning.
The reason Utah contributes less per student is because so many Utahns have such large families. It is simple economics. We have fewer tax payers per student. When you allow for a deduction for each child on top of that, it compounds the challenge of funding education.
I have a home, a business, and children; therefore, I too enjoy many entitlements in the form of tax deductions. It is a form of welfare for homeowners, business owners, and parents. Tax deductions encourage behaviors that government finds beneficial. Government encourages through entitlements.
Some taxes and tax policies certainly enourage the wrong things and discourage things we should encourage. The wealthy enjoy welfare as much or more than the poor. I write off a great deal because I own a business (and because I have a very smart tax attorney). Some of these deductions encourage me to reinvest in my business (usually a good thing for society), while others encourage me to buy vehicles with a higher gross vehicle weight, so I can write more off in deductions (probably not so good for society or the environment). This is corporate welfare and these are entitlements just as much as the low income deductions. I take advantage of almost all legal deductions I can. I'm happy to do so. I am accepting entitlements just as much as someone who makes minimum wage does. I am on welfare as much or more than they are. They earn their pay and contribute with minimal return on their investment. The tax laws favor me. My skills are considered more valuable economically and I have money to invest, so I am on the earning side of interest, and this means I get to take advantage of the tax laws in ways the indigent can't. I am a corporate welfare recipient. I'm not better because of this. I am simply more economically fortunate. This says nothing about my deeper worth as a person.
I know many tax laws motivate and encourage the wrong things. I don't think having lots of children is an inherently bad or wrong thing, but I'm not convinced having large families is the salvation of our society either. It has costs and benefits. We need to be creative and abundant in finding solutions to challenges whether they come from diminishing populations or diminishing resources. I do have a problem with many religious people who deny that diminishing resources is ever a concern. In my opinion, it is faith-based ignorance and magical thinking to assume that increased consumption can go unchecked. This concerns me.
I don't plan on living off Social Security, so I'm not relying on the next generation contributing to Social Security. A system that takes so much money in and has such poor returns is only possible because the money is being used for other things. I feel for those who will be living off their Social Security payments. The system is broken and having large families is a poor fix for a broken system.
Finally, I don't see why sending my kids to a private school is elitest (I assume you mean this in a pejorative sense), or why is is better for the public schools for me to send my kids there. I'm saving the public schools a lot of money. They collect the taxes, but my kids don't attend so they don't cost the system anything. I take a double hit; they get a double gain. I'm happy to do it for the sake of the public schools, especially the teachers.
I send my kids to private school because I feel obligated as a parent to do everything I can to help them. The class sizes are much smaller. They get more individual attention. I also like the uniforms and the school's focus on a liberal education. I don't think my kids are elite or should be given special privileges because of this. They should be judged on their character and competency just as anyone. I'm against elitist privileges, but I'm in favor of parents giving their children optimal opportunities at becoming excellent. My kids are not excellent because they go to a private school, but I hope going there will help them become excellent, including in character and kindness. Competency is critical, but it can't ensure a good life alone. I expect my children to be able to reason well and to develop many skills, but I also want them to good people and love learning.
@Sa - I thought it over and I have to apologize. It was pejorative. I didn't mean it to be that way, but let my biases play. I respect your willingness to send your children to private school and still be willing to pay public school teachers. In my limited experience, private schools do tend to instill an I'm-better-than-others sense of self in the students.
A couple times, I've hired 'mechanics' who had dropped out of college after finishing private school because they weren't prepared for it. It very well could have been thier personalities since they expected a significant paycheck to just show up and did not perform very well. It probably wouldn't have mattered which type of school that they went to.
A couple times, I've hired 'mechanics' who had dropped out of college after finishing private school because they weren't prepared for it. It very well could have been thier personalities since they expected a significant paycheck to just show up and did not perform very well. It probably wouldn't have mattered which type of school that they went to.
Abstract thought - try it
@Revenant - I haven't been around many who attended private schools, so I got into this without many assumptions. If I see my kids becoming elitist, they will be going to a different school very fast. I look at the older kids at the school and I like what I see. I may be missing something because of my biases, but I don't see elitism. Most seem genuinely abundant and caring. The school has students from many cultures, but not many indigent students go there. I wish the school would offer more scholarships to balance the economic diversity. I see a lot of service projects and community outreach work being done. The older students also help tutor the younger ones sometimes. My younger kids love their older friends at school. Just like any school, they don't, can't and shouldn't teach everything and I will be working with my kids to round out their education.
@Jason M. - IN REGARDS TO YOUR DONATIONS FROM THE CHURCH, THEIR JUST THAT DONATIONS, CHURCH HAS ECCLESIATICAL LEADERS TO DECIDE HOW TO TAKE CARE OF YOUR DONATION, DON'T LIKE IT DON'T DONATE, TAKE IT UP WITH HIM WHO YOU CHOOSE TO WORSHIP.
[Please don't shout with ALL CAPS.]
[Please don't shout with ALL CAPS.]
@Robert D. - Why did this comment collapse with only one troll vote? Is it that it doesn't align with a moderator's personal perspective regarding large families?
@. - federal not a state issue . Better your time be spent calling up Orrin Hatch than talking about what is impossible for Gov Huntsman to even try to deal with
@James J. - Why is it only a federal issue when our great gov uses his power to keep programs such as in-state tuition for illegal aliens!
@James J. - right? The Governor has no say over the laws of his state and if they're enforced or not?
@James J. - Utah State government has the authority to pass and enforce laws making it a felony to hire or otherwise support illegals.
If the employment opportunities dry up, so wil lmost of the inflow of illegals.
If the employment opportunities dry up, so wil lmost of the inflow of illegals.
@James J. - Funny how nobody complains when the State helps enforce federal drug laws or blatantly unconstitutional federal gun laws. But the moment we suggest that the State do something about helping to enforce federal immigration laws or maybe even adopt a few laws of our own to discourage illegal aliens from choosing Utah, a lot of the open-border crowd suddenly starts screaming about federal vs State laws.
The State could and should empower and train EVERY peace officer to enforce immigration laws. EVERY illegal alien or suspected illegal alien to come to the attention of law enforcement should be detained until a determnimation can be made and if, in fact, illegal, punished and then deported.
The State could and should empower and train EVERY peace officer to enforce immigration laws. EVERY illegal alien or suspected illegal alien to come to the attention of law enforcement should be detained until a determnimation can be made and if, in fact, illegal, punished and then deported.
@James J. - Look at HB224 - "REPEAL OF EXEMPTION FROM NONRESIDENT TUITION". The Governor has made it clear he intends to veto this bill if it is passed. He is saying he supports illegal immigrants receiving instate, resident tuition rates. This means that we, the taxpayers, are then subsidizing their tuition (as higher education costs are a part of the state's budget paid from income tax, etc.). This *is* a state issue!
I believe it is in the best interest of the state to provide a tax break for my wealthy buddies first. I will then provide subsidies to a few wealthy corporations that will limit their tax liabilities. I know that in these times of a 1.6 billion dollar surplus it is very difficult for the wealthy to continue to bear less of a tax burden, so, I propose an across the board tax elimination of all tax for those who have a net income of $500,000.00 or more. Remember the better off I am, the better off my buddies are and we can continue to exploit the poor, provide minimul services, and just let the education system continue to survive on peanuts.
Thank you
Thank you
@Lou zur - I only make $20000 a year so I dont git to pay much in taxis so I kin spect not to git much back in refunds.
Forever yers,
Cletus
Forever yers,
Cletus
Forever yers,
Cletus
Cletus
I understand the need for additional funds for certain infastructure projects, but one would think that those figures would already be in the budget. It makes me cringe whenever a politician says that they have a budget surplus. Because then they just do just what the govenor is doing now, how can we spend this money we have. Well here's an idea, SEND IT BACK TO THE PEOPLE WHO GAVE IT TO YOU!!!!!!!!! Geese! If you want 1.5 million dollars to explore to possibility of building a new road, then factor that into the budget for that year.
You have got to love the politician mind at work. They say they are working for us, and they do for the most part. But when a $1.6 billion surplus is available, then that public servant vision goes out the door and they start to think about all the pet projects they can fund with that money that's not even theirs.
You have got to love the politician mind at work. They say they are working for us, and they do for the most part. But when a $1.6 billion surplus is available, then that public servant vision goes out the door and they start to think about all the pet projects they can fund with that money that's not even theirs.
@Daniel B. - But if we all divided it equally to the citizens of Utah we'd each get about 700$ back...which would then be put into the local economy. But that's just crazy talk, I know.
@Mel - Dividin it equally wood be socillism. Any thing fer a vote I spose.
Forever yers,
Cletus
Forever yers,
Cletus
Forever yers,
Cletus
Cletus
@Cletus nourse - Cletus responded to me!!! I feel so honored! I see your point, sir. And I am very opposed to said, "socillism". There should be talk about about refunds, not redistribution.
Do you realize that Governor Huntsman's proposed budget is 19.7% higher than the 2006 post-supplemental budget. How long can we as a state afford these outrages state spending increases? What is going to happen when this economy turns south which it will?
...that it is not just the Governor who controls the $$...it is our bogus legislators. Things like making sure they can get their own little covered parking garage so their hair does not get wet...now that is a scam. Those punks on the hill are the ones to be mad at....
@Kelly S. - They play games with "Cute and funny" bills, trying to name songs and trees and Elementry School classroom requests to change some kind of someting.
THEN for the IMPORTANT stuff. They wait till the last moments of their session, and stay till midnight debating things on that day only, that should have been the most important and first things talked about. They they adjorn and say they need a special session.
BULL let a committe of citizens write an agenda, and make them stick to the agenda, and not let them out till every items is taken care of, and finished, even if this takes many months, and let them receive only the pay for a normal session. This is the way most of us in the private sector has to do their business.
Lets also not forget all of the Special Interest folks. Everyone they can put into a wheel chair and block entrances and sing songs etc.
Lets not let the emotional incidences like those, take away from the thousands and thousands and thousands of School Children, and employees.
It seems like we spend such a high amount on such a small percentage of persons and programs, while the vast majority (the children of TAX PAYERS and not Tax benefit Takers) of the people pay the piper.
Sorry, but some may feel I am a grinch, and vote me as such on the voting. I speak my heart, when I say that let the benefits be equally spread, and let EDUCATION be the most important issue on the books.
(No, I am not a Teacher, and no, I do not have children in Schools / I just understand that a quality education keeps the majority off of welfare and makes them Tax Paying citizens. Look to the future and not just for today)
THEN for the IMPORTANT stuff. They wait till the last moments of their session, and stay till midnight debating things on that day only, that should have been the most important and first things talked about. They they adjorn and say they need a special session.
BULL let a committe of citizens write an agenda, and make them stick to the agenda, and not let them out till every items is taken care of, and finished, even if this takes many months, and let them receive only the pay for a normal session. This is the way most of us in the private sector has to do their business.
Lets also not forget all of the Special Interest folks. Everyone they can put into a wheel chair and block entrances and sing songs etc.
Lets not let the emotional incidences like those, take away from the thousands and thousands and thousands of School Children, and employees.
It seems like we spend such a high amount on such a small percentage of persons and programs, while the vast majority (the children of TAX PAYERS and not Tax benefit Takers) of the people pay the piper.
Sorry, but some may feel I am a grinch, and vote me as such on the voting. I speak my heart, when I say that let the benefits be equally spread, and let EDUCATION be the most important issue on the books.
(No, I am not a Teacher, and no, I do not have children in Schools / I just understand that a quality education keeps the majority off of welfare and makes them Tax Paying citizens. Look to the future and not just for today)
@B V. - School children DO need basic healthcare in order to grow up to be productive members of this society! There are thousands and thousands of school children who are uninsured or underinsured due to their parents not making enough while not qualifying for state assistance! Healthcare should go hand in hand with education!!! (I AM a taxpayer and I DO have children in the public school system!)
Take care.
Take care.
@Rachael C. - Health care should not go hand in hand with education. Health care should go hand in wallet with the parents who choose to have the children. A single child born under normal conditions will cost usually over $1000, after insurance pays their portions. If they can produce them, they should have to pay for them.
------------------
Bobert S. Tangent
Bobert S. Tangent
@Bobert - Bobert,
With your logic, education should also be funded solely through the parents that have children in school. Good health goes hand in hand with education..both would benefit society.
$1,000 for what? I pay nearly $3,000 a year in premiums ALONE for myself and two children..that's for medical ONLY..that's not including dental, vision, etc. And that is just in premiums..that's not including co-pays, deductibles, or co-insurance! I also live below the poverty level, but do not qualify for Medicaid because I make "too much".
If parents cannot afford these outrageous costs to keep their children healthy, what good is that going to do when the child needs to stay home from school because RX's are too much..not to mention a simple visit to the Dr.????
With your logic, education should also be funded solely through the parents that have children in school. Good health goes hand in hand with education..both would benefit society.
$1,000 for what? I pay nearly $3,000 a year in premiums ALONE for myself and two children..that's for medical ONLY..that's not including dental, vision, etc. And that is just in premiums..that's not including co-pays, deductibles, or co-insurance! I also live below the poverty level, but do not qualify for Medicaid because I make "too much".
If parents cannot afford these outrageous costs to keep their children healthy, what good is that going to do when the child needs to stay home from school because RX's are too much..not to mention a simple visit to the Dr.????
@Rachael C. - 1000 for the co-insurance that one would have to pay. I was not including monthly premiums at all. Just that assuming an 80% coverage, it would be near to impossible to pay the other 20% and have that under $1000.
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Bobert S. Tangent
Bobert S. Tangent
@Rachael C. - I've got a compliment for you. I think you're one of the wisest, most sensible people in the kls forums. I agree with you more than 95% of the time. So, I'm wondering if you know of an email address, with which I can send email to Gov. Huntsman or his office.
@Alaskawolfman - Well, thank you! That is the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me on this forum! =) I also think you're very wise. I've read several of your posts these past few weeks, and am taken aback how right on you are on every one!
I see that someone below has already given you an e-mail address. Have fun!
I see that someone below has already given you an e-mail address. Have fun!
@Rachael C. - Thank you for your response and for the return compliment. I don't think I'm that wise. I just make a point to try and be open-minded about things. I look forward to seeing you in here again. I'm off to write the governor!!!
@Kelly S. - Let's remember, while it's the Legislature that is submitting, reviewing, and ultimately rejecting or sending on bills, the Governor needs only a veto to overcome any of the passed bills. It takes 2/3 of the Legislators to overcome his one voice. So the Governor really has much more power in the end than any Representative or Senator.
Kind of like one delegate to convention gets much more say in who gets elected than one voter in a primary. And one voter in a primary gets much more say than one voter in a general election.
Kind of like one delegate to convention gets much more say in who gets elected than one voter in a primary. And one voter in a primary gets much more say than one voter in a general election.
Giving rights where rights don't belong.
ooO_(_o__o_)_Ooo
http://videodaily.info
http://videodaily.info/go/parents.php
http://videodaily.info
http://videodaily.info/go/parents.php
Utah has a perpetual road fund but none for education - anyone else think there is something wrong with this?
We spend the least on education, those in gov can see that a new road somewhere will be needed by 20 something, but can't see where $$ is needed for school? If you can plan for a road you can plan for education. Just curious if they are on the roads dontcha think they may be needing to travel those roads to school?
Get rid of the "Stack em deep teach them cheap" mentality in this state.
We spend the least on education, those in gov can see that a new road somewhere will be needed by 20 something, but can't see where $$ is needed for school? If you can plan for a road you can plan for education. Just curious if they are on the roads dontcha think they may be needing to travel those roads to school?
Get rid of the "Stack em deep teach them cheap" mentality in this state.
State Corrections takes the highest part of the state budget which is why legislatures are so reluctent to increase that budget, and so quick to want to cut that budget.
Problem is that corrections is not over funded. Its still very much underfunded. State Corrections officers earn on average $2-$4 less per hour than the county jail officers. State officers have seen little to nothing in catching up to inflation in the last 20 years. Last years 9% increase was the first raise seen in 6 years. Thats not counting the 1% slap in the face given the year before the 9%.
The turn over rate at the prison is currently 6 months. 20 hire on and 30 quit. Most will not make work there long enough to collect their pension, and that pension is the only light at the end of the tunnel for those who do stick around. Very few work at the prison for longer than 5 years, before going to a county jail for more money.
This high turn over creates a serious security and safety issue.
1. With everyone that quits the state losses experience that officer brought to work every day. The state also losses the money it took to train that officer.
2. Lack of old officers and influx of new officers creates a security issue as of course the experience issue, but now inmates are able to get away with more deliquency because new officers cant see it. New officers also may not see dangers that old officers would.
3. Lack of officers in general. Many posts at the prison have had to be discontinued because of lack of officers to fill those posts. The prison needs to fill anywhere from 50-200 open posts a day. Some posts have no one to work them, other officers call in sick, and officers also have difficulty arranging vacation time and days off.
4. Overtime. In order to maintain the minimum amount of officers needed to maintain a secure environment and protect the public by the direction of state law and policy, overtime has to be issued. This means more than half of the current officers employed at the prison must come in and work on their schedualed days off to maintain security. Guess how this effects officers working 12 hour days 9-10 days in a row. It makes them tired, which makes them sloppy, which hurts security and safety of not only the prison facility but the public at large.
5. Budget issues. 2years ago overtime cost the state $400,000. Last year it was $820,000. This year it will be 1.2 million. This is overtime hours spent on top of the regular wage, regular wage numbers are not included here.
Corrections officers for the state of utah need at least another 10%-15% pay raise to catch up to inflation and the market.
This year the governer only suggested a 3 1/2% payraise, a 2% benifits increase to keep up with rising insurance costs. Also a 2% descresionary raise, which will be used for god knows what, and a select few. As much as the governers suggested increase is appreiciated it is still way too slim.
Problem is that corrections is not over funded. Its still very much underfunded. State Corrections officers earn on average $2-$4 less per hour than the county jail officers. State officers have seen little to nothing in catching up to inflation in the last 20 years. Last years 9% increase was the first raise seen in 6 years. Thats not counting the 1% slap in the face given the year before the 9%.
The turn over rate at the prison is currently 6 months. 20 hire on and 30 quit. Most will not make work there long enough to collect their pension, and that pension is the only light at the end of the tunnel for those who do stick around. Very few work at the prison for longer than 5 years, before going to a county jail for more money.
This high turn over creates a serious security and safety issue.
1. With everyone that quits the state losses experience that officer brought to work every day. The state also losses the money it took to train that officer.
2. Lack of old officers and influx of new officers creates a security issue as of course the experience issue, but now inmates are able to get away with more deliquency because new officers cant see it. New officers also may not see dangers that old officers would.
3. Lack of officers in general. Many posts at the prison have had to be discontinued because of lack of officers to fill those posts. The prison needs to fill anywhere from 50-200 open posts a day. Some posts have no one to work them, other officers call in sick, and officers also have difficulty arranging vacation time and days off.
4. Overtime. In order to maintain the minimum amount of officers needed to maintain a secure environment and protect the public by the direction of state law and policy, overtime has to be issued. This means more than half of the current officers employed at the prison must come in and work on their schedualed days off to maintain security. Guess how this effects officers working 12 hour days 9-10 days in a row. It makes them tired, which makes them sloppy, which hurts security and safety of not only the prison facility but the public at large.
5. Budget issues. 2years ago overtime cost the state $400,000. Last year it was $820,000. This year it will be 1.2 million. This is overtime hours spent on top of the regular wage, regular wage numbers are not included here.
Corrections officers for the state of utah need at least another 10%-15% pay raise to catch up to inflation and the market.
This year the governer only suggested a 3 1/2% payraise, a 2% benifits increase to keep up with rising insurance costs. Also a 2% descresionary raise, which will be used for god knows what, and a select few. As much as the governers suggested increase is appreiciated it is still way too slim.
@Puzzle - you are a corrections officer or related to one. I vote that we use the money to fund a payraise for me. I have no state employement, but I would like one.
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Bobert S. Tangent
Bobert S. Tangent
@Puzzle - My beloved husband is a long time corrections employee. The risks he takes every just going to work are more than what most of us would tolerate.
I read over & over on this KSL comment board about people's wishes to imprison or execute various criminals. People, think about the men and women who every day bravely do society's dirty work for you. We all want criminals safely locked up, but we as a society are not willing to pay those who protect us a decent wage. My husband has a former classmate who changed to private sector after working at the prison for a few years. She makes 20,000$ a year more than he does and works less hours in a much more pleasant setting to boot.
I pray every day that my husband will come home safely to me at night. Think about that, those who would pay these excellent people a barely living wage.
I read over & over on this KSL comment board about people's wishes to imprison or execute various criminals. People, think about the men and women who every day bravely do society's dirty work for you. We all want criminals safely locked up, but we as a society are not willing to pay those who protect us a decent wage. My husband has a former classmate who changed to private sector after working at the prison for a few years. She makes 20,000$ a year more than he does and works less hours in a much more pleasant setting to boot.
I pray every day that my husband will come home safely to me at night. Think about that, those who would pay these excellent people a barely living wage.
Do Your part in Preventing a Utah Police State
Help Defeat a Proposed Child Support Percentage Increase, Bond and Suspending a Person’s Driver’s License for Non-payment. This is a letter that was sent by MF4J.org's President, Alan L. Millard to the legislature.
The Child Support/Custody Process:
Child support and child custody are not separate issues. So tied is child support to custody that one begets the other. The more time the child spends with one parent—predominantly the mother—the more money that parent receives from the other (father). And from the beginning, the courts ensure this sex discrimination is applied against fathers in at least 90% of all child custody cases, including the ones contested.
This offers an incentive for divorce, especially when marital problems already exist. Furthermore, child support and child custody are both civil issues, yet the state, due to rating money interests over human interests, is involved in collecting child support debt for the mother, and not enforcing parent-time for the father. Rather than maintain a joint physical custody arrangement, with consistency and genuine values encouraged through a relationship with both parents, dad and his children are separated from one another; lacking the father’s environment, mutual influence and contact, children experience parent alienation. To what degree, depends on the mother’s influence. She can turn the children against the father. And when situations cause dad to get another house, with a new set of monthly rent and utility payments, a child support financial obligation is attached as an additional hardship.
As if this isn’t bad enough, fathers are commonly placed with imputed amounts in assessing their child support obligations. Arbitrary figures are made up to extort more money from fathers who have lower incomes than the state thinks they are capable of earning. It’s called imputed income (Webster: impute—to attribute blame, misfortune). For example, if Joe Smoe makes $40,000 a year, but gets laid off, due to divorce hardships, false allegations of abuse, and then gets employment making $20,000 annually, he is still held to paying child support on $40,000 income, possibly more if he’s increased his educational credentials. This is the same as the Internal Revenue Service arbitrarily taxing a person on income that doesn’t exist. It’s fraud, and a type of taxation without representation.
All fathers in contested child custody cases risk going to jail, persecution and complete financial ruin in a system that favors mothers and women. The system creates beat-dead dads because it beats fathers dead by a very prejudiced and discriminatory process. Just as a slave, the only value granted to the father, regardless of his love and equal desire for his children and their mutual love and attachment to him, is a means of financial exploitation and persecution. He is given little personal/individual value to his children by the courts, let alone any rights of his own to his children. Fathers are deemed expendable and exploited without regard to children and their need to have both parents, nor for a matched desire by fathers to have them.
Real child support comes from joint physical custody--the heart, not the wallet
Slavery is defined as having obligations without rights, and, in the worst of cases, parents having offspring taken from them, with children deprived their parents’ love and influence, while at the same time held to obligations of servitude. In this category is where fathers are placed by many judges and politicians who have no conscience, bound by a blind (chauvinistic) servitude to women. The same tyrants then say there’s a problem with fathers not being involved in their children’s lives! The court system and modern society don’t allow it.
Children aren’t divorcing their parents. Real child support—the best interest of the child—is not measured by money. No emotion, feeling or personality is attached to money, or therefore to the father when this becomes his only value.
Instead of being a financial burden imposed upon fathers, child support must be granted through both parents in the form of a children’s medium as it is when the parents are united, by an equally shared love that includes all components as food, shelter, clothing, happiness, dinner settings, contentment, shared meals, their own bedrooms, and the complete living environment at both parents’ locations. (Mothers do not constitute a family any more than do fathers.) Like the mother’s support, the father’s support is to come directly, not as finances paid to the mother, but as time, food, groceries and clothing, with meals, shopping and other activities shared with the child.
But no, the state extracts from such a living context a financial obligation and applies it to fathers. This pervasive arrangement deliberately keeps fathers out of children’s lives. If the child is in our best interests, then the child, not the mother, will be the beneficiary. Fathers who fight for their children pose a threat to this arrangement. Real child support is acquired from equal contact with both parents-- joint physical custody, with expenses acquired by a mutual parental status, not by an obligation without rights.
Ulterior motives Exist
Besides the financial incentives provided for women to have children and not allow fathers in their children’s lives, there is state and federal incentive money provided to collect child support, with increased persecution and tyrannical measures to fulfill the feminist agenda. The arrangement is becoming more entrenched, sowing a horrible path of corruption dependent upon a premise of injustice by state and federal incentive programs--money (bounty) that’s only available through male persecution. Federal ($3 million) and state monies are ear-tagged by a feminist-based agenda. (The unconstitutional Violence Against Women Act works the same way.)
The Office of Recovery Services, supposedly only an administrator, expresses a self-serving motive to initiate laws serving their best interests--a conflict of interest. Along with intimidation and failing to provide due process by its own court system, fathers are persecuted by mere allegations of not paying child support. That’s the part legislators, ORS representatives and skewed politicians leave out. Gestapo tactics are implemented by the Office of Recovery Services, with more power to assault fathers continually requested by this agency, which takes personal interest in such persecution.
How the ORS works:
Someone complains that you aren’t current paying your child support. No hearing is provided to prove it, so you don’t worry, because you know this accusation is false. Yet, come payday, when you receive your paycheck, a large portion of your pay is missing. You talk to payroll, and it’s explained to you in a condescending manner that you are delinquent paying your child support and that they have imposed this garnishment, which they, acting as an arm of the law, are required by threat to withhold. (This happened in my own case.) This agency also reaches outside its authority to apply sanctions on areas that have no correlation to child support obligations, such as taking away the obligor’s driver’s license.
To take away a person’s driver’s license who is delinquent paying child support is one of the bills that was shot down in the 2004 legislative session, but is now back for this legislative session. Brilliant! Isn’t a motor vehicle necessary to acquire money to pay child support? (It’s also necessary for fathers to have contact with their children, since fathers are the ones required to transport.) And what does child support have to do with driving or not complying with laws governing a driver’s license? No correlation exists between the two. This is outside this agency’s authority. Unless one is negligent in operating a motorized vehicle, nothing else is to infringe upon this necessary function in today’s society. The government is not to have more authority than the people in what it can or can’t do. If Joe Blow down the street owes you money, can you take away his driver’s license? No, nor would the average citizen want to. (This policy is being applied to other licenses too.)
How about the average citizen robbing a bank to collect a debt? Some states now allow their child support collection agencies to forcibly take money from bank accounts (bank robbery) as a means to collect.
Little concern, let alone effort, is given to granting both parents an equal parent/custody status from the start. Living expenses are provided for the mother, along with tax-break benefits. She gets the child tax credit, yet her child support is tax-free. This is another discriminatory and prejudiced application of the law at the expense of fathers and children. ORS even takes part of the child’s support for itself--$7.00 from each payment made every month. Now it even wants more.
Another bill to increase the percentage of child support targeting a segment (parents with only one child), which human resource apparently the ORS thinks is not yet fully exploited, increasing the obligation by a minimum of 25% and up to 40-50%, depending on the tier or category one falls in, was also introduced and barely defeated the last legislative session. But like a flu virus, it’s back again this year. Although calculations based upon one’s income already exist, the ORS wants to increase the percentage of child support through this bill, again sponsored by Senator Greg Bell. What this does is subsidize mothers who aren’t working and are on state welfare at the expense of fathers. A percentage of one’s income is already calculated now, combined with the other parent’s income and overnights the child spends with each parent, to determine how much child support is owed by the obligor.
The methods used to arrive at the current child support tables are a confusing mishmash of economic methods. Utah uses the “cost shares” method of imputing the support tables based on a mix of fixed and marginal costs of supporting a child within an intact family, not a divorced family. The existing tables already are indexed for inflation. As the parents’ combined incomes go up so do the total child support levels. However, current methods ignore post-divorce economic reality. After divorce, both parents must maintain housing, transportation, and utilities. Why should fathers subsidize their former spouses’ fixed costs? Fathers must also reestablish and support a household. They have their own similar fixed costs.
In its self-serving attempt to defend an increase in child support assessed, the ORS claims that its calculation tables need to be up-dated. A percentage can not become obsolete. (The higher the income the more the obligee pays now.)
That’s like saying a standard can become obsolete, and then merely changing the standard to satisfy personal greed at the expense of citizens, and using this ruse to hide behind the best interests of children.
Again, the best interests of the children are to have both parents in their lives, in which case child support is provided directly in the form of food, clothing, shelter, bonding, received from the love of both parents. But the state has taken what it calls child support—money--out of this context, using this means of additional taxation as an avenue to generate more funds, and not only wants to keep it that way, but to increase its tyrannical efforts—including the percentage used to assess additional amounts.
As an administrative office, ORS’ involvement to increase the percentage of child support is a conflict of interest, but the effort reveals that some sort of incentive exists for its tyrannical efforts. The cry for an increased percentage for child support doesn’t exist outside of this office!
In addition, under the presumption of guilt, another bill trying to be passed this legislative session would require a bond to be posted from which child support could be drawn if the obligor falls behind on child support payments. What other proprietor can do this, and to a person who has not acquired a debt? (Would the state receive interest from these bonds?)
Innocent fathers, who are set up, persecuted and targeted by the system, are often even placed in jail for non-payment of child support in a country that shall not imprison anyone for a debt owed, depriving them liberty and justice. The way treasonous judges do this is by holding them in contempt of court for the debt owed, when they have no business interfering to deem an infraction concerning a debt in the first place, or to arbitrarily apply, by abuse of their authority, a jail term for a debt—debtor’s prison, which is never supposed to happen in this country and others, including Mexico.
Stand up against the child support percentage increase, requiring a bond and allowing the ORS to suspend driver’s licenses and other tyrannical measures used to violate and persecute Utah residents. Instead, support joint physical custody--the best interest of children and families.
Visit: www.menandfathersforjustice.org
Help Defeat a Proposed Child Support Percentage Increase, Bond and Suspending a Person’s Driver’s License for Non-payment. This is a letter that was sent by MF4J.org's President, Alan L. Millard to the legislature.
The Child Support/Custody Process:
Child support and child custody are not separate issues. So tied is child support to custody that one begets the other. The more time the child spends with one parent—predominantly the mother—the more money that parent receives from the other (father). And from the beginning, the courts ensure this sex discrimination is applied against fathers in at least 90% of all child custody cases, including the ones contested.
This offers an incentive for divorce, especially when marital problems already exist. Furthermore, child support and child custody are both civil issues, yet the state, due to rating money interests over human interests, is involved in collecting child support debt for the mother, and not enforcing parent-time for the father. Rather than maintain a joint physical custody arrangement, with consistency and genuine values encouraged through a relationship with both parents, dad and his children are separated from one another; lacking the father’s environment, mutual influence and contact, children experience parent alienation. To what degree, depends on the mother’s influence. She can turn the children against the father. And when situations cause dad to get another house, with a new set of monthly rent and utility payments, a child support financial obligation is attached as an additional hardship.
As if this isn’t bad enough, fathers are commonly placed with imputed amounts in assessing their child support obligations. Arbitrary figures are made up to extort more money from fathers who have lower incomes than the state thinks they are capable of earning. It’s called imputed income (Webster: impute—to attribute blame, misfortune). For example, if Joe Smoe makes $40,000 a year, but gets laid off, due to divorce hardships, false allegations of abuse, and then gets employment making $20,000 annually, he is still held to paying child support on $40,000 income, possibly more if he’s increased his educational credentials. This is the same as the Internal Revenue Service arbitrarily taxing a person on income that doesn’t exist. It’s fraud, and a type of taxation without representation.
All fathers in contested child custody cases risk going to jail, persecution and complete financial ruin in a system that favors mothers and women. The system creates beat-dead dads because it beats fathers dead by a very prejudiced and discriminatory process. Just as a slave, the only value granted to the father, regardless of his love and equal desire for his children and their mutual love and attachment to him, is a means of financial exploitation and persecution. He is given little personal/individual value to his children by the courts, let alone any rights of his own to his children. Fathers are deemed expendable and exploited without regard to children and their need to have both parents, nor for a matched desire by fathers to have them.
Real child support comes from joint physical custody--the heart, not the wallet
Slavery is defined as having obligations without rights, and, in the worst of cases, parents having offspring taken from them, with children deprived their parents’ love and influence, while at the same time held to obligations of servitude. In this category is where fathers are placed by many judges and politicians who have no conscience, bound by a blind (chauvinistic) servitude to women. The same tyrants then say there’s a problem with fathers not being involved in their children’s lives! The court system and modern society don’t allow it.
Children aren’t divorcing their parents. Real child support—the best interest of the child—is not measured by money. No emotion, feeling or personality is attached to money, or therefore to the father when this becomes his only value.
Instead of being a financial burden imposed upon fathers, child support must be granted through both parents in the form of a children’s medium as it is when the parents are united, by an equally shared love that includes all components as food, shelter, clothing, happiness, dinner settings, contentment, shared meals, their own bedrooms, and the complete living environment at both parents’ locations. (Mothers do not constitute a family any more than do fathers.) Like the mother’s support, the father’s support is to come directly, not as finances paid to the mother, but as time, food, groceries and clothing, with meals, shopping and other activities shared with the child.
But no, the state extracts from such a living context a financial obligation and applies it to fathers. This pervasive arrangement deliberately keeps fathers out of children’s lives. If the child is in our best interests, then the child, not the mother, will be the beneficiary. Fathers who fight for their children pose a threat to this arrangement. Real child support is acquired from equal contact with both parents-- joint physical custody, with expenses acquired by a mutual parental status, not by an obligation without rights.
Ulterior motives Exist
Besides the financial incentives provided for women to have children and not allow fathers in their children’s lives, there is state and federal incentive money provided to collect child support, with increased persecution and tyrannical measures to fulfill the feminist agenda. The arrangement is becoming more entrenched, sowing a horrible path of corruption dependent upon a premise of injustice by state and federal incentive programs--money (bounty) that’s only available through male persecution. Federal ($3 million) and state monies are ear-tagged by a feminist-based agenda. (The unconstitutional Violence Against Women Act works the same way.)
The Office of Recovery Services, supposedly only an administrator, expresses a self-serving motive to initiate laws serving their best interests--a conflict of interest. Along with intimidation and failing to provide due process by its own court system, fathers are persecuted by mere allegations of not paying child support. That’s the part legislators, ORS representatives and skewed politicians leave out. Gestapo tactics are implemented by the Office of Recovery Services, with more power to assault fathers continually requested by this agency, which takes personal interest in such persecution.
How the ORS works:
Someone complains that you aren’t current paying your child support. No hearing is provided to prove it, so you don’t worry, because you know this accusation is false. Yet, come payday, when you receive your paycheck, a large portion of your pay is missing. You talk to payroll, and it’s explained to you in a condescending manner that you are delinquent paying your child support and that they have imposed this garnishment, which they, acting as an arm of the law, are required by threat to withhold. (This happened in my own case.) This agency also reaches outside its authority to apply sanctions on areas that have no correlation to child support obligations, such as taking away the obligor’s driver’s license.
To take away a person’s driver’s license who is delinquent paying child support is one of the bills that was shot down in the 2004 legislative session, but is now back for this legislative session. Brilliant! Isn’t a motor vehicle necessary to acquire money to pay child support? (It’s also necessary for fathers to have contact with their children, since fathers are the ones required to transport.) And what does child support have to do with driving or not complying with laws governing a driver’s license? No correlation exists between the two. This is outside this agency’s authority. Unless one is negligent in operating a motorized vehicle, nothing else is to infringe upon this necessary function in today’s society. The government is not to have more authority than the people in what it can or can’t do. If Joe Blow down the street owes you money, can you take away his driver’s license? No, nor would the average citizen want to. (This policy is being applied to other licenses too.)
How about the average citizen robbing a bank to collect a debt? Some states now allow their child support collection agencies to forcibly take money from bank accounts (bank robbery) as a means to collect.
Little concern, let alone effort, is given to granting both parents an equal parent/custody status from the start. Living expenses are provided for the mother, along with tax-break benefits. She gets the child tax credit, yet her child support is tax-free. This is another discriminatory and prejudiced application of the law at the expense of fathers and children. ORS even takes part of the child’s support for itself--$7.00 from each payment made every month. Now it even wants more.
Another bill to increase the percentage of child support targeting a segment (parents with only one child), which human resource apparently the ORS thinks is not yet fully exploited, increasing the obligation by a minimum of 25% and up to 40-50%, depending on the tier or category one falls in, was also introduced and barely defeated the last legislative session. But like a flu virus, it’s back again this year. Although calculations based upon one’s income already exist, the ORS wants to increase the percentage of child support through this bill, again sponsored by Senator Greg Bell. What this does is subsidize mothers who aren’t working and are on state welfare at the expense of fathers. A percentage of one’s income is already calculated now, combined with the other parent’s income and overnights the child spends with each parent, to determine how much child support is owed by the obligor.
The methods used to arrive at the current child support tables are a confusing mishmash of economic methods. Utah uses the “cost shares” method of imputing the support tables based on a mix of fixed and marginal costs of supporting a child within an intact family, not a divorced family. The existing tables already are indexed for inflation. As the parents’ combined incomes go up so do the total child support levels. However, current methods ignore post-divorce economic reality. After divorce, both parents must maintain housing, transportation, and utilities. Why should fathers subsidize their former spouses’ fixed costs? Fathers must also reestablish and support a household. They have their own similar fixed costs.
In its self-serving attempt to defend an increase in child support assessed, the ORS claims that its calculation tables need to be up-dated. A percentage can not become obsolete. (The higher the income the more the obligee pays now.)
That’s like saying a standard can become obsolete, and then merely changing the standard to satisfy personal greed at the expense of citizens, and using this ruse to hide behind the best interests of children.
Again, the best interests of the children are to have both parents in their lives, in which case child support is provided directly in the form of food, clothing, shelter, bonding, received from the love of both parents. But the state has taken what it calls child support—money--out of this context, using this means of additional taxation as an avenue to generate more funds, and not only wants to keep it that way, but to increase its tyrannical efforts—including the percentage used to assess additional amounts.
As an administrative office, ORS’ involvement to increase the percentage of child support is a conflict of interest, but the effort reveals that some sort of incentive exists for its tyrannical efforts. The cry for an increased percentage for child support doesn’t exist outside of this office!
In addition, under the presumption of guilt, another bill trying to be passed this legislative session would require a bond to be posted from which child support could be drawn if the obligor falls behind on child support payments. What other proprietor can do this, and to a person who has not acquired a debt? (Would the state receive interest from these bonds?)
Innocent fathers, who are set up, persecuted and targeted by the system, are often even placed in jail for non-payment of child support in a country that shall not imprison anyone for a debt owed, depriving them liberty and justice. The way treasonous judges do this is by holding them in contempt of court for the debt owed, when they have no business interfering to deem an infraction concerning a debt in the first place, or to arbitrarily apply, by abuse of their authority, a jail term for a debt—debtor’s prison, which is never supposed to happen in this country and others, including Mexico.
Stand up against the child support percentage increase, requiring a bond and allowing the ORS to suspend driver’s licenses and other tyrannical measures used to violate and persecute Utah residents. Instead, support joint physical custody--the best interest of children and families.
Visit: www.menandfathersforjustice.org
@P P. - Good comment, but way too long. You lose too many people. That is why you didn't get any replies.
@P P. - Detailed and self explanitory. I agree that reform needs to made with the ORS and its powers. Far beyond any that should be allowed in democracy and ones rights. They could even expand to start deducting from our wages to support the children of illegals.
Those that couldn't read or follow the story must have received their education recently and must be under 30. They haven't learned to read yet or carry a thought through a story. The bible one liners is all they can handle.
Those that couldn't read or follow the story must have received their education recently and must be under 30. They haven't learned to read yet or carry a thought through a story. The bible one liners is all they can handle.
@P P. - Your comments are false and without merit.
Child support is ordered from many things. A divorce decree, paternity orders, those are signed by a Judiciary Judge. The State cannot by law just show up and take money from your account. They have to go thru a lengthy legal process to establish a child support order.
Your article also implies that Father are the only ones paying child support to the mother. There a many grandparents out there that recieve child support from both parents. There is also an increasing amount of men who want and have custody of thier children and the mother pays child support.
You fail to leave out the numbers of both parents that take lower paying jobs in order to pay less child support or dont even work at all.
If parents would pay thier child support ORS would not be needed. ORS exist only becuase parents would not live up to the responsiblity of support they have to thier children. ORS provides a means and oppurtunity for mothers, fathers and grandparents to recieve support for taking care of children.
If the writer of this article truly wants justice then get justice for the child. The child deserves better not the father or the mother. This is a cheap way to take away the focus of what child support really is. It is support for the child that the father or mother walked out on and did not live up to thier RESPONSIBILITIES as PARENT and PROVIDER.
Child support is ordered from many things. A divorce decree, paternity orders, those are signed by a Judiciary Judge. The State cannot by law just show up and take money from your account. They have to go thru a lengthy legal process to establish a child support order.
Your article also implies that Father are the only ones paying child support to the mother. There a many grandparents out there that recieve child support from both parents. There is also an increasing amount of men who want and have custody of thier children and the mother pays child support.
You fail to leave out the numbers of both parents that take lower paying jobs in order to pay less child support or dont even work at all.
If parents would pay thier child support ORS would not be needed. ORS exist only becuase parents would not live up to the responsiblity of support they have to thier children. ORS provides a means and oppurtunity for mothers, fathers and grandparents to recieve support for taking care of children.
If the writer of this article truly wants justice then get justice for the child. The child deserves better not the father or the mother. This is a cheap way to take away the focus of what child support really is. It is support for the child that the father or mother walked out on and did not live up to thier RESPONSIBILITIES as PARENT and PROVIDER.
Hope they don't interrupt my evening with the State of the State address. I'll read about it online later. But don't go interrupting my American Idol this evening!
Why isn't there any mention of his speach on education on this KSL???? I am a brand new teacher this year in the Box Elder County School District. I spent from 1998 - 2005 finally finishing my degree in Education at Utah State University. I teach at the Box Elder Middle School. My wife teaches 2nd grade in the county as well. She has been teaching for almost three years. My father was in Education for more than 30 years in this district. It is no surprise as to how much teachers make. I can make more working at a local Autoliv. I chose to teach because I believe it is so critical for our youth to be taught correctly. I teach Health/PE. Yeah! Easy! Right? Wrong! Our nation and people are so blind to the dangers of health and the way our society is dying from terrible eating habits and physical activity habits. It is so frustrating to hear the terrible reports on how much health care costs are. Solutions are at the educatio level. Our kids can help change this by being educated. I am here to say that as a first year teacher there is more work and more stress involved with my passion of educating my 8th graders than I have had managing a waterpark resort and campground that I work at still. I work two jobs to make it by with my small family of one son so far. Please people of Utah, support our Education. Go Huntsman!
@Jcj - I taught for six years. I always felt that Utahns didn't respect teachers. In hindsight, I now think I was wrong. I believe most Utahns respect teachers, but those who don't are loud.
If you can accept the respect of those who do respect you and ignore those who don't, and if you get a good job to supplement your income, teaching can be very good.
I don't think most of us think teaching is easy--especially Junior High School. I taught Jr. High and Sr. High. Sr. High is much, much easier. Teaching at a University is even easier. Teaching in corporate settings can also be very easy. Good luck. The current trend is for teachers to last five years, but I hope you find the joy and can stay longer.
If you can accept the respect of those who do respect you and ignore those who don't, and if you get a good job to supplement your income, teaching can be very good.
I don't think most of us think teaching is easy--especially Junior High School. I taught Jr. High and Sr. High. Sr. High is much, much easier. Teaching at a University is even easier. Teaching in corporate settings can also be very easy. Good luck. The current trend is for teachers to last five years, but I hope you find the joy and can stay longer.
@Jcj - I agree teachers need to be paid more but I think the biggest issue is the lack of parents teaching their children in their homes. This is because more homes have two-parents incomes which leaves parenting to nannies and day-care. Maybe if the Gov. gave our money back to us we would have to work as much and we could spend more time with our kids.
Illegal immigrants living in Utah
People without health insurance
I wonder how many of these people Huntsman wants to help are illegal aliens? If Utah would start helping Federal officials enforce immigration law instead of giving illegals in-state tuition benefits, driving cards and sanctuary maybe this problem with health care would start to go down.
People without health insurance
I wonder how many of these people Huntsman wants to help are illegal aliens? If Utah would start helping Federal officials enforce immigration law instead of giving illegals in-state tuition benefits, driving cards and sanctuary maybe this problem with health care would start to go down.
@Lee D. - There is a direct relationship between the Health care costs and Illegal immigration. Hospitals don't turn anyone away for care because they know the federal government will pay them for any costs they don't recoop. The feds paid 16 billion last year in hospital "bad debt" expenses.
i was really disappointed that the governor mentioned health care after "infrastructure" and road projects. And even then rather than offer a proposed solution he called on "business and community leaders" to come up with a solution.
Well, why haven't they come up with any proposed solutions already? Isn't it the job of government to solve problems that the marketplace is unable to?
It was refreshing to see Phil Riesen in the democratic response put the issue front and center where it belongs.
Well, why haven't they come up with any proposed solutions already? Isn't it the job of government to solve problems that the marketplace is unable to?
It was refreshing to see Phil Riesen in the democratic response put the issue front and center where it belongs.
@Phillip K. - You must be a democrat...More government, less choice. I work in the Health care industry and know we are actively working to create solutions to our health care needs. It is always better to have the market create solutions and to have as little government control as possible. For instance, people think health insurance is too expensive but then they get mad when your health insurance doesn't cover gastric bipass surgery (a proposed mandate for this session). Mandates make up anywhere between 20-30% of the costs of insurance. This mandate alone will make it so everyones premiums increase 1-2%, if passed.
The more the government gets involved the more we pay in taxes. Thats the bottom line.
The more the government gets involved the more we pay in taxes. Thats the bottom line.
He's great at spending our money. Typical liberal---
cannot resist spending the surplus which was stolen
from the tax payer.
cannot resist spending the surplus which was stolen
from the tax payer.
you all called for the illegals to be here everytime you called around to get the cheaper bid. where on earth did think the cheap labor was going to come from? Buy American!
I wonder if you ever read these? Thank you. Thank you for addressing these aducation issues, road issues and ethics issues. You are a great governor. Thank you for helping us have this awesome surplus. Life is just a little nicer with money to spend, instead of just bills to pay. You are a great governor.
that your other choice was Matheson. You sheeple got what you deserve. All of the narrow minded faithful of our great state onlw saw mormon and republican and had thier little minds made up.
Oh the IRONY! LOL!
GO HUNTSMAN!
Oh the IRONY! LOL!
GO HUNTSMAN!
@Freeyourmind - If you don't like the mormons than move. It would seem that not even the democrats or athiests have the answer. They must have nothing in there minds. I mean look at Rocky Anderson!! Get an education, and quit blaming the faithful.
@Troy S. - don't like Huntsman, than YOU MOVE!
Typicall awnser from a typicall narrow minded follower!
Typicall awnser from a typicall narrow minded follower!
Give the surplus back to the people. It's the people’s money, the people earned it, and we gave enough to the government for their programs. They should give the rest back, not invent new ways to spend it.
Republican vs. Democrat, there is no difference. One preaches this, while the other preaches that, but at the end of the day they both can’t wait to spend your money.
Gov. Huntsman, I though I could trust you!
Republican vs. Democrat, there is no difference. One preaches this, while the other preaches that, but at the end of the day they both can’t wait to spend your money.
Gov. Huntsman, I though I could trust you!
"I prince Jon will be the good cop (the legislature who steals from you via excessive taxes doesn't get to take the credit like I do). My plan?
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SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND"
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6:59am - Tue Jan 16th, 2007
9:03am - Tue Jan 16th, 2007
10:12am - Tue Jan 16th, 2007
8:53pm - Tue Jan 16th, 2007
Paul Drockton was one of the best District Managers In Utah, and, the numbers prove it. He recruited and licensed 9 new Farmers Agents in the first 5 months he was in Utah. His quota was 7 for the entire year! That meant Drockton was on track to put on 18-20 new agents for 2002. He was recruiting the equavalent of some small states!!! He was also extremely profitable and excelled in every measureable area! See the documents for yourself!
http://journals.aol.com/mormons4justice/drockton-as-utah-district-manage/
Paul Drockton was fired for filing a discrimination complaint against Brian Braddock, whose brother was the Chairman of Farmers Group Inc.! Its just that simple! He was the District Manager that every State Executive dreamed about! But, Brian Braddock was a Mormon hater and Farmers covered for his crimes!
Sadly, so did some Utah politicians.
7:19am - Wed Jan 17th, 2007
10:23am - Wed Jan 17th, 2007
7:23am - Wed Jan 17th, 2007
I guess we should congratulate him for his separation of church and state. But I chose to follow the prophet, not the King/Governor.
--Just my opinion
8:08am - Wed Jan 17th, 2007
9:08am - Wed Jan 17th, 2007
11:57am - Wed Jan 17th, 2007
Ezra Taft Benson was quite conservative...politically. But his political views are not translatable into his role as prophet.
If you need a prophet's words to support the Governor...read King Benjamin. Are we not all beggars?
1:28am - Thu Jan 18th, 2007
1:06pm - Wed Jan 17th, 2007
8:27am - Wed Jan 17th, 2007
8:49am - Wed Jan 17th, 2007
9:59am - Wed Jan 17th, 2007
9:03am - Wed Jan 17th, 2007
9:57am - Wed Jan 17th, 2007
"How can you do this when your prophet tells you to obey and honor the King/Governor?
Maybe you should start by first honoring the most important influence this world has had, Jesus Christ. Follow Jesus words and the rest will start to make sense. Read the New Testament. You will start to learn how by your religion you are complicating your life so much, that you are very confused! Good luck. God bless.
10:23am - Wed Jan 17th, 2007
I also cannot believe that a leader of the church that boasts it's "service" and "love one another" and "take care of one another" message, would say it's "immoral" to make sure that all children are healthy and can afford basic healthcare. That's another wow!
I, for one, am very pleased that this governor is not leading this state based on what his religions leaders have to say. Kudos, Gov. Huntsman!
12:15pm - Wed Jan 17th, 2007
Rachel, I ask you to stop condescendingly generalizing all members of the LDS Church as minions of the Republican Party. This Church includes members from all across the political spectrum (the leading Democrat in the U.S. Senate, Harry Reid, is a Mormon). I consider myself a moderate Republican in the same vein as Huntsman and there are many like me. Truth be known, I often vote for Democrats (especially locally). In my humble opinion, neither party has a monopoly of good or bad ideas. I simply want leaders who build consensus rather than divide. In this criteria, Huntsman is an excellent governor (and I even voted for Matheson).
12:57pm - Wed Jan 17th, 2007
On a side note this "Mormon" is leaning heavily towards Senator Obama with his presidential vote.
4:20pm - Wed Jan 17th, 2007
I didn't "condescendingly" generalize ALL members of the LDS church. If you would have read my post thoroughly, I said SOME, which, according to your own words, is true.
Take care.
6:15pm - Wed Jan 17th, 2007
6:40pm - Wed Jan 17th, 2007
6:51pm - Wed Jan 17th, 2007
2:03pm - Wed Jan 17th, 2007
"How can you see the world when you view it through a cloudy veil?"
10:04pm - Wed Jan 17th, 2007
8:34am - Wed Jan 17th, 2007
While Huntsman has done a few things right in his brief tenure he is ultimately a dishonest hack who ran as a conservative but governs as a liberal. And I believe he knew all along that is exactly what he would do. This is blatant dishonesty and is not “being honest with his fellow man” whom he now proposes to juke out of many more millions when he PROMISED at campaign time he would be conservative. What a shameful display of moral corruption for personal political power and advancement.
Utah, you must ultimately wake up and elect leaders who will be what they say they will be, servants of Utah rather than slick, flashy faces with big bucks and big names for whom the governorship is just a step on the way to EPA or HUD appointments and. The position of Governor is NOT there to build personal legacies for dishonest politicians. It exists to SERVE the way promised during the campaign period. Huntsman is a true letdown.
8:53am - Wed Jan 17th, 2007
10:31am - Wed Jan 17th, 2007