Bill would allow concealed loaded weapons in cars
The Utah House has passed a bill that
would allow loaded guns in cars and homes without a concealed
weapons permit. March 5th, 2009 @ 8:27pm
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that would protect a civilian for shooting someone, other wise whats the sense of having a loaded weapon in your car, home yes i agree with
@LTR - you have a right to defend your home and family. but as a friend once told me you better shoot to kill but only shoot him once, my friend was a slc cop now retired
@4x4's forever - on shooting anyone. However, my Dad served in Vietnam and said he would shoot to kill and death means no moving around. For you one shot probably would do the job. I guess a shotgun would be better for me.
@4x4's forever - If you ever have to shoot someone, it is because you are trying to make them STOP doing whatever it was that they were doing that caused you to have to shoot them.
If they are trying to rape you, you are shooting to make them stop trying to rape you.
If they are trying to stab you, you are shooting to make them stop trying to stab you.
You shoot until they STOP. That's what the police do.
Now, if you shoot him once and the guy drops his knife and runs away - as long as you (and those you have a duty to protect) are no longer in danger - the shooting succeeded.
However, if you shoot him once and he still has the knife and is still coming towards you - keep shooting until he is stopped.
If they are trying to rape you, you are shooting to make them stop trying to rape you.
If they are trying to stab you, you are shooting to make them stop trying to stab you.
You shoot until they STOP. That's what the police do.
Now, if you shoot him once and the guy drops his knife and runs away - as long as you (and those you have a duty to protect) are no longer in danger - the shooting succeeded.
However, if you shoot him once and he still has the knife and is still coming towards you - keep shooting until he is stopped.
@jbelljr - I think what he's driving at is
A: Shoot to kill so they can't sue you if you only wound them
B: One shot so the police don't go after you for "excessive force"
Honestly, I think if people knew that they person they are driving next to could have a loaded gun, maybe they would be a little more courteous on the road. Of course if you wreck you could be maimed and or killed and that's not a deterrent so maybe not.
A: Shoot to kill so they can't sue you if you only wound them
B: One shot so the police don't go after you for "excessive force"
Honestly, I think if people knew that they person they are driving next to could have a loaded gun, maybe they would be a little more courteous on the road. Of course if you wreck you could be maimed and or killed and that's not a deterrent so maybe not.
@4x4's forever - Your cop friend dos not make since and he must have ben a bad cop!Shooting once my not stop a person, even cops many times have to shot more than once to stop.Also many stated do not allow you to protect your home!
@LTR - Yeah you're absolutely right, because i'm often faced with situations where I feel that I need to shoot someone.
Someone cuts me off in traffic, shoot em! Old lady at the grocery store blocking the aisle, shoot her! On hold with comcast every month over my bill, drive down there and shoot em!
Someone cuts me off in traffic, shoot em! Old lady at the grocery store blocking the aisle, shoot her! On hold with comcast every month over my bill, drive down there and shoot em!
@Kyle1313 - I truly hope you never are in a situation where you do feel you are threatened and need to protect yourself. I find it difficult to believe that anyone can feel safe at all times in this crazy world. Your flippant attitude toward people who have actually needed to use deadly force to save themselves or a loved one is juvenile and narcissistic. Honestly put yourself into a late-night burglary attempt, or an attempted rape of your wife or child, and truly tell me that you are 'man enough' to take on anything with your charm and persuasive intelligence. Fail.
And don't tell me that an 80 year old woman or an 11 year old girl is not capable of effectively using a firearm to disable or kill an attacker. Everyone has a right to defend themselves. Everyone. Some feel using a firearm just makes that task just a little easier.
'nuff said.
And don't tell me that an 80 year old woman or an 11 year old girl is not capable of effectively using a firearm to disable or kill an attacker. Everyone has a right to defend themselves. Everyone. Some feel using a firearm just makes that task just a little easier.
'nuff said.
@MOUNTAINMAN - I'm all for guns in the safety of your home, but honestly why do we need everyone carrying loaded pistols around in the car. Even then, you hear more about children getting ahold of the loaded gun than you do about someone defending themselves against an attacker.
The situation that you're talking about when one might "feel threatened" varies by individual. Some people that drive around with a loaded gun in their car are just looking for any reason "to feel threatened" and get a chance to use it.
Yeah legitematly using a gun in self defense is justified, but when you have people picking fights (ie: road rage) because they feel tough by having a gun isn't cool.
The situation that you're talking about when one might "feel threatened" varies by individual. Some people that drive around with a loaded gun in their car are just looking for any reason "to feel threatened" and get a chance to use it.
Yeah legitematly using a gun in self defense is justified, but when you have people picking fights (ie: road rage) because they feel tough by having a gun isn't cool.
@Kyle1313 - If I was inclined to bad enough road rage that I would attack someone with a weapon and this bill passed I would really think twice about trying it because there would be a dang good chance they were packin' heat too.
@Kyle1313 - That if the crooks know people are carrying that they will go find easier pickings. There are towns in the South that make it law for everyone over 21 to carry a gun. These towns have the lowest crime rate as crooks are cowards and will only prey on the weak and helpless. If they know that people arte allowed to carry a gun they will move on to areas that restrict people from defending themselves.
Personally I think the State should make it manditory for everyone who is not a convicted felon to carry a gun. Just think how safe our towns would be.
People who choose to carry are responsable enough to get educated on how to carry. Many of us go out and shoot our guns to make sure they work, to get comfortable shooting them and to keep our skills honed. People who carry know that they will not pull a gun for road rage. I don't feel tough because I carry. I feel safe. I don't look for a reason to "Feel Threatened", but if I am I know I can defend myself and those around me safely.
People who think that people carry so they can intimidate know nothing about why people carry. Those who feel that they don't need home protection are usually the ones that get robbed. IF a bad guy knows that I carry he will not attack me, but he will attack someone who will not carry. Criminals are cowards, they will always go afterr those who are not willing to defend themselves. They are always willing to go after the guy who is against honest people having guns. Criminals expect those who are against guns to get honest people to not have them. They then don't have to worry about who they can or cannot rob. Thier pickings are easier and they do not have to worry about getting shot at. If I have to choose between a gun and a baseball bat, I would take the gun anyday. It is never a fair advantage for me to go to a gunfight with a bat or knife.
While I agree that there are some stupid people in this world, I feel that most who take up guns are mostly law abiding people. Many who get carry permits are willing to learn and obey the laws. It does not matter where you live, you will always find a minority of people who will use their rage to do what ever they want. This is ONLY a small percentage. Once they screw up then the law will weed them out for the rest of the law abiding people. However, the law cannot camp outside everyones house to protect them. We need laws that allow honest people to protect themselves, our families and property.
Personally I think the State should make it manditory for everyone who is not a convicted felon to carry a gun. Just think how safe our towns would be.
People who choose to carry are responsable enough to get educated on how to carry. Many of us go out and shoot our guns to make sure they work, to get comfortable shooting them and to keep our skills honed. People who carry know that they will not pull a gun for road rage. I don't feel tough because I carry. I feel safe. I don't look for a reason to "Feel Threatened", but if I am I know I can defend myself and those around me safely.
People who think that people carry so they can intimidate know nothing about why people carry. Those who feel that they don't need home protection are usually the ones that get robbed. IF a bad guy knows that I carry he will not attack me, but he will attack someone who will not carry. Criminals are cowards, they will always go afterr those who are not willing to defend themselves. They are always willing to go after the guy who is against honest people having guns. Criminals expect those who are against guns to get honest people to not have them. They then don't have to worry about who they can or cannot rob. Thier pickings are easier and they do not have to worry about getting shot at. If I have to choose between a gun and a baseball bat, I would take the gun anyday. It is never a fair advantage for me to go to a gunfight with a bat or knife.
While I agree that there are some stupid people in this world, I feel that most who take up guns are mostly law abiding people. Many who get carry permits are willing to learn and obey the laws. It does not matter where you live, you will always find a minority of people who will use their rage to do what ever they want. This is ONLY a small percentage. Once they screw up then the law will weed them out for the rest of the law abiding people. However, the law cannot camp outside everyones house to protect them. We need laws that allow honest people to protect themselves, our families and property.
@LTR - your car is an extention of your home you can lawfully protect yourself in yor car
@RandJ Gunsales - tell that to the person who's getting 5-10 years for excesive use of a firearm.when under trained and unknowing people start carring loaded weapons in cars thats a problam waiting to happen
i have loaded guns in my home now i find that different than a moving object
i have loaded guns in my home now i find that different than a moving object
@RandJ Gunsales - Get a permit, It's not that difficult, If it is . . .I would question if that person should have a permit.
. . .when we can legally start standing up for ourselves against these criminals that are breaking into our homes and stealing our cars at gun point.
@AK2UT - So, how often have you had a gun put to your head..
@squezz2002 - Squezz, if you're so afraid of guns I will glady take you out shooting and show you all about them.
I'm not joking at all.
I'm not joking at all.
@squezz2002 - Never had a gun put to my head... I have had 2 guys pull a knife on me, first time because a guy I was visiting had left his garbage cans out. luckily I was wearing a leather coat and was faster than that knife guy.
2nd time am old friend of mine was a serious drug user and did not have any money for food so I took him to the grocery store to buy some soup. His dealer jumped him in the parking lot, stabbed him 3 times, gave him a sucking chest wound. I couldn't do anything because my friend has HIV and I did not want to get tangled up with that bloody knife...
I bought a gun last week. and am going to get my concealed weapon permit.
2nd time am old friend of mine was a serious drug user and did not have any money for food so I took him to the grocery store to buy some soup. His dealer jumped him in the parking lot, stabbed him 3 times, gave him a sucking chest wound. I couldn't do anything because my friend has HIV and I did not want to get tangled up with that bloody knife...
I bought a gun last week. and am going to get my concealed weapon permit.
@AK2UT - isn't that why we pay our taxes... for a police dept.
@squezz2002 - Because when seconds count, the cops are only minutes away!
@YoureTheTroll - But all the people with CCW who were inside ran. They could have helped, but ran. Then the minutes had to count and the police came. It could have been over sooner had some of the people who trained and had a CCW done something instead of run. A lot of people talk a big game, but don't back it up. In addition, from what I understand there were a couple other officers inside...who didn't have their gun on them....that is bad.
@Thetruthtold - The CCW carriers that were at Trolley Square that night RAN because they were no ARMED. it's posted on the way in "NO WEAPONS". Law abiding citizens were not packing that night--just an officer who was exempt from the notice.
I pack everywhere I can, and sometimes where I cannot. If I had been there with my gun in the car--I would have run too. So what's your point?
Trolley Square is a pretator's paradise.
I pack everywhere I can, and sometimes where I cannot. If I had been there with my gun in the car--I would have run too. So what's your point?
Trolley Square is a pretator's paradise.
@Monty p. - There were people inside with CCW who did have their guns and ran. However, I am more concerned with the Officers who were inside off duty without their guns. If Hammond had another officer or two with him, he could have neded before police arrived.
@Monty p. - There were people inside with CCW who did have their guns and ran. However, I am more concerned with the Officers who were inside off duty without their guns. If Hammond had another officer or two with him, he could have neded before police arrived.
@Monty p. - There were people inside with CCW who did have their guns and ran. However, I am more concerned with the Officers who were inside off duty without their guns. If Hammond had another officer or two with him, he could have neded before police arrived.
@Thetruthtold - CCW permit holders are supposed to protect themselves, their families and those around themselves. They do NOT seek out confrontations, even when one is evident. Forget for a moment that no carrying is permitted in Trolley Square, if I was carrying there when it occured my first and foremost thought would be for the safety of my family. I would be for getting as far away as possible from what was happening. the gun is for defense. Seeking something out would be offense.
@Thetruthtold - First, Trolley Square had signs indicating that firearms are prohibited there. Those signs do not have a Texas-style "30.06" meaning here (force of law), however, they do tell CCW holders that Trolley Square is not a friendly place to them. Most CCW holders in Utah do not frequent Trolley Square. That's a lot of people that might otherwise shop and eat there.
Now, put that aside for a minute.
My duty is to protect myself and my family. That is job #1. A CCW permit does not make you a police officer. Technically, they don't have a duty to protect any individual either.
If I would have been there, I would not have confronted the attacker unless...
he was between me and my family
or
he was between my family and safety (the nearest exit from the building)
In one of those two situations, I would have confronted and stopped him.
Barring that, my duty would have been to get myself and my family out of there - preferably BEFORE the police responded.
You do not want to get between the police and the "bad guy", and you do not want to end up being marched out a gunpoint with your hands above your head like the kids at columbine. You do not want to get caught up in police interviews or the delay (hours in many cases) trying to get to your car behind the miles of police tape.
It is said that Discretion is the Better Part of Valor.
Live it.
Now, put that aside for a minute.
My duty is to protect myself and my family. That is job #1. A CCW permit does not make you a police officer. Technically, they don't have a duty to protect any individual either.
If I would have been there, I would not have confronted the attacker unless...
he was between me and my family
or
he was between my family and safety (the nearest exit from the building)
In one of those two situations, I would have confronted and stopped him.
Barring that, my duty would have been to get myself and my family out of there - preferably BEFORE the police responded.
You do not want to get between the police and the "bad guy", and you do not want to end up being marched out a gunpoint with your hands above your head like the kids at columbine. You do not want to get caught up in police interviews or the delay (hours in many cases) trying to get to your car behind the miles of police tape.
It is said that Discretion is the Better Part of Valor.
Live it.
@YoureTheTroll - So why do i need a loaded gun in a car...my gas pedal is only milaseconds away!!!
@squezz2002 - if you have really fast reflexes it's 2-3 tenths away plus the lag time for power transfer from the gas to your wheels...and that's if you're fast. Plus, if you're gonna need a gun it's probably because for one reason or another you CAN'T go anywhere. Ever heard of those situations where you're stuck in traffic and someone decides to hijack your car? Happens all the time in these chases they have in Cali and stuff.
@squezz2002 - to check the recent Supreme Court decision that said "You ARE NOT entitled to police protection"
@squezz2002 - the last time the police have actually stopped a home invasion or a car jacking while it happened? All we ever read or hear about is they are there after the fact to collect evidence and try to find the perpetrator. I'd rather be able to protect my family than be a sheep and hope that they might be around!!
please explain this. as the story reads The bill would exempt gun owners from concealed weapons permit requirements if the firearms are kept only in their vehicle, home or on their property.
but then we have this statement
A concealed weapons permit would still be required to carry a firearm. if its ok to have it then why do i have to get a permit
but then we have this statement
A concealed weapons permit would still be required to carry a firearm. if its ok to have it then why do i have to get a permit
@4x4's forever - with the new law you would be able to have a loaded and concealed firearm in your home or car, which you now need a permit for. However you would still need the permit to carry a loaded or concealed firearm when you are not on your own property.
@YoureTheTroll - i can leagley have a gun in my car cool. but if i try to shoot the bleepin car jacker am i in trouble for it because its on my person when im driving
@4x4's forever - im just telling you what the laws are. as far as im concerned if hes jacking your car, blow him away!
@YoureTheTroll - Contrary to what the story insinuates, it is not necessary to have a permit to keep a loaded gun at home.
With the new law you would be able to have a loaded firearm in your car. Currently, without a permit, the gun must be out of reach (in the back or trunk) with the bullets stored in a different location.
Open-carries (where anyone can see it) are legal if the gun is not loaded. To conceal your gun, you need a permit, but you may also carry it loaded at that point.
**Utah's definition of a loaded gun is when one action is required to discharge. My semi-auto is not "loaded" unless there is a round in the chamber.
With the new law you would be able to have a loaded firearm in your car. Currently, without a permit, the gun must be out of reach (in the back or trunk) with the bullets stored in a different location.
Open-carries (where anyone can see it) are legal if the gun is not loaded. To conceal your gun, you need a permit, but you may also carry it loaded at that point.
**Utah's definition of a loaded gun is when one action is required to discharge. My semi-auto is not "loaded" unless there is a round in the chamber.
@Monty p. - that you can have a gun in your vehicle without a CCP as long as a round is not in the chamber and the weapon in plain sight.
@Bearlaker - I'm not going to speak definitively because I'm not a lawyer, but I was advised very strongly when I bought my first handgun to store it and the ammo separately and out of reach. The gun shop told me the same thing.
One thing I was very happy about when I got my permit was that law no longer applied to me.
If/when you are stopped by an officer, you are required by law to inform him you have a weapon in the vehicle. Without a CCW, I wouldn't advise that weapon be anywhere within reach.
One thing I was very happy about when I got my permit was that law no longer applied to me.
If/when you are stopped by an officer, you are required by law to inform him you have a weapon in the vehicle. Without a CCW, I wouldn't advise that weapon be anywhere within reach.
@4x4's forever - to carry a concealed weapon on your person without a permit.
You could only keep a loaded firearm in your house, car , or property.
You could only keep a loaded firearm in your house, car , or property.
@4x4's forever - is when it became illegal to have a loaded gun in your home.
If a man breaks into my home I should offer him a cup of coffee while he waits for me to load it?
If a man breaks into my home I should offer him a cup of coffee while he waits for me to load it?
@4x4's forever - it to carry a loaded weapon concealed, out of site. You can carry a loaded weapon not concealed as long as it is leagaly loaded
for making a law that actually supports a citizen's right to protect themselves and their neighbors as they are away from home. The frequency of violence in our communities is escalating, and as the brains in Washington try to strangle every right from we the people, it's good to have a breath of logic and sense from our local rep's.
I'm sick of society punishing the victims of crime rather than the perpetrators. Someday, soon, all of us will be victims.
'nuff said.
I'm sick of society punishing the victims of crime rather than the perpetrators. Someday, soon, all of us will be victims.
'nuff said.
so they are giving us the right to keep and bear arms, great!!
@YoureTheTroll - not quite. We have had, and always will have, the RIGHT to bear arms. Whether or not we demand that our government respects that right is another matter. Rights not exercised are soon lost...
'nuff said.
'nuff said.
@MOUNTAINMAN - The government can have my ammo, one round at a time!
I thought that it was already legal to keep a loaded firearm in your house without a permit. That's a law I broke for years if it's not true (before I got my CCW, that is).
Give me a break. This is the last thing we need. A bunch of freaking idiots running around with loaded guns, that shouldn't even have them...Did they forget about Trolley Square already..or do they not worry about that. They'll just go after the people that sold them the guns, so its okay..what a joke...PLEASE.. PLEASE...STOP VOTING FOR THESE IDIOTS!!!!!
@squezz2002 - Yeah, I have never heard of an instance where a CCW permit holder foiled a crime by shooting someone? I hear all the time about kids getting their hands on dads gun and shooting themselves or friends.
@Kyle1313 - The racking of a shotgun is one of the biggest crime prevention sounds their is. You wont ever hear a news story about a crime that never happened.
@Taz Z. - The trouble with Kyle1313 and squeezz2002, they are uninformed. Talking of things they know very little about.
The main stream news media refuses to publish stories about victims defending themselves and winning. Why? I don't know.
Get a few copies of the NRA publication, and you'll read many such stories every month. Of course you won't do that, so continue existing in your fog.
Sk8boy
The main stream news media refuses to publish stories about victims defending themselves and winning. Why? I don't know.
Get a few copies of the NRA publication, and you'll read many such stories every month. Of course you won't do that, so continue existing in your fog.
Sk8boy
@Kyle1313 - for the good.
Two news stories about the same event. Turned out the victims were in their 60's.
Kansas City Star, The (MO)
2008-08-03
Section: NEWS
Edition: 1
Page: B1
Bank customer shoots gunman after robbery
RUSS PULLEY, The Kansas City Star
A bank customer shot a robber after an armed confrontation in a Kansas City parking lot Saturday.
The robber was wounded in the head and was in stable condition at a hospital, police said.
The shooting happened about 9 a.m. when a man and a woman were in a car using the automated teller machine at the Bank of America at North Oak Trafficway and Barry Road.
They were robbed at gunpoint, but as the gunman walked away, the man in the car got out armed with his own gun, said Sgt. Chris Lantz of the department's robbery unit.
The man yelled for the robber to stop. When the robber turned around and pointed his gun, the man fired at him, hitting him in the head, Lantz said.
At the scene Saturday, investigators were collecting evidence from a dark sedan parked next to the ATM. An object that looked like a handgun was lying on the pavement. Nearby were apparent bloodstains.
Police interviewed the couple and witnesses.
The robbery victim had a permit to carry a concealed gun, Lantz said. Under the circumstances, Lantz said, that would not matter because he could legally carry the weapon in his car.
No criminal case has been presented, and authorities are waiting to see whether the patient recovers, said Jim Roberts, spokesman for the Clay County prosecutor's office.
Police ask that anyone who witnessed the incident call the TIPS Hotline at 816-474-TIPS (474-8477).
Police: Robbery Victim Shoots Suspect in Bank of America Parking Lot
Last Edited: Saturday, 02 Aug 2008, 6:35 PM CDT
Created: Saturday, 02 Aug 2008, 10:31 AM CDT
Bank of America ATM Shooting on August 2, 2008 SideBar
KANSAS CITY, MO. -- Kansas City, Missouri Police say it appears an attempted robbery victim shot a suspect Saturday morning in a Bank of America parking lot.
Police said just before 9:00 a.m. they received a call to 8320 North Oak Trafficway. A man about 20-years-old had been shot in the head. He was taken to the hospital in critical condition.
Police said it appears the man who was shot was trying to rob people near the Bank of America ATM. One of the two victims pulled out a handgun and shot him in self defense.
Minsky's Pizza manager, Aaron Ness, told FOX 4 he isn't surprised by the crime scene. He said people used to wait by the Bank of America drive thru to rob people. This time it was the ATM, and the victim fought back.
Both a man and woman were in the car withdrawing money from the ATM. Police are not saying who pulled the trigger.
Anyone who witnessed the shooting is asked to call the TIPS Hotline at 474-TIPS.
One Suspect Shot Attempting to Rob Store, Other Flees
Posted: 6:19 PM Jan 22, 2007
We have an update to a shooting we first told you about Friday night.
The victim of the shooting was actually trying to rob the Phillips 66 at 2525 29th St.
Two suspects were holding up the owner of the store, Dean Yee, with a handgun.
A man in the store, 57-year-old Michael Mah, drew a firearm and told one of the suspects to drop his weapon before shooting the 17-year-old.
Mah had a valid concealed carry permit from Oklahoma.
The firearm the robbery suspect used was found to be stolen.
The 17-year-old suspect was treated at a local hospital before being transferred to a Kansas City hospital. He is now in stable condition.
The second suspect was last seen running South on Randolph Street from 29th Street. He is described as an Hispanic male, 18 years of age, wearing a black coat, white t-shirt, red doo-rag and blue jeans.
Police continue to investigate and ask anyone with information to call Detective Kent Biggs at 368-9412 or Crime Stoppers at 234-0007.
ALBUQUERQUE -- A man attacking his ex-wife with a knife inside a southeast Albuquerque Wal Mart was shot and killed by a 72-year-old man Thursday evening.
Man shot is named suspect in sex assaults
Saturday, October 12, 2002
By Lori Shontz, Post-Gazette Staff Writer
A man shot by a woman early Thursday in Homewood has emerged as a suspect in a string of recent sex assaults in the East End.
Police said the suspect, a black man in his early 20s, pointed a rifle at the woman in two separate incidents. The second time, the woman, who is licensed to carry a gun, shot him.
Police were unsure of his name but he was listed in a police affidavit as Jerome Prunty, also known as Jevone Prunty. He was arraigned yesterday morning at UPMC Presbyterian on two counts of simple assault and one count of receiving stolen property.
City Magistrate Moira Harrington ordered him held on $66,000 straight bond. The hospital would not release information about his condition.
Although the man did not try to sexually assault the woman who shot him, police are trying to determine whether he is responsible for attacking five other women in East Liberty, Highland Park and Garfield since late September.
Since midweek, undercover officers have searched for suspects who matched a composite image, but police Cmdr. Maurita Bryant said investigations by that special task force were called off last night. Neither she nor other investigators would say whether that was because they believe the suspect is in custody.
In each of the attacks, a woman was approached from behind, just as the woman Thursday morning was. In three of the five incidents, the man mentioned a weapon or the victim saw it. Those attacks, however, occurred a few miles away from Thursday morning's incident.
Police obtained a search warrant yesterday to take DNA samples from the suspect.
Allegheny County Coroner Dr. Cyril Wecht said that any bodily fluid containing cellular material -- blood, semen, sweat or saliva, for instance -- contains DNA that will be present in test results, which usually take five to seven days. He said a mitochondrial test, which usually looks for DNA in hair samples, takes two to three days to complete. Wecht said cellular tests are more accurate, but the mitochondrial test is "still darn good enough for investigative purposes."
According to the police affidavit, at 4:04 Thursday morning a woman was walking on North Murtland Avenue when a man approached her from behind, pointed a rifle at her and told her to stand there while he shot her. The woman pleaded for her life, then ran and screamed for someone to call the police. The man fled.
About 90 minutes later, the woman was walking on Brushton Avenue and noticed two black men talking on a corner. As she walked up a hill, one of the men came up behind her. When he caught up with her, she realized he was the man who had threatened to shoot her.
She said to the man, "This hill gets to you," and the man agreed. At the top, he was out of breath and sat down. She continued walking, more quickly, and then heard someone running behind her. The man pulled a .22-caliber rifle out of his pants and pointed it at her.Posted - 06/02/2008 : 8:10:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Probably won't make the national news. Don't want people to learn how to stop shooters like this dirtbag.
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2008/may/26/3-dead-in-nevada-bar-shooting/
3 dead in Nevada bar shooting
The Associated Press
Mon, May 26, 2008 (12:17 a.m.)
Click here to find out more!
Three men were fatally shot and two other people were injured early Sunday at a bar in the northern Nevada town of Winnemucca, police said, and the shootings may have stemmed from a longstanding feud between several local families.
Winnemucca Police Chief Bob Davidson said a man entered Players Bar and Grill and fatally shot two members of a rival family before he was shot and killed by a patron. All three were pronounced dead at the scene.
The deceased shooter was identified as Ernesto Villagomez, 30, of Winnemucca. The other deceased men were identified as Jose Torres, 20, and his brother, Margarito Torres, 19, both of Winnemucca.
A 34-year-old man and a 22-year-old woman were listed in stable condition with gunshot wounds at the Winnemucca hospital. Their names weren't immediately released.
Sunday's shooting may have been in retaliation for an earlier drive-by shooting involving the families in the town of about 8,000 located 160 miles northeast of Reno, Davidson told Reno's KRNV-TV.
The 48-year-old patron from Reno who killed the shooter was initially taken into custody as a person of interest, but was later released after Humboldt County District Attorney Russell Smith determined the shooting was justifiable homicide.
The patron was in possession of a valid concealed weapons permit issued by the Washoe County Sheriff's office, Davidson said.
While the shootings occurred during the town's annual Runnamucca motorcycle rally, there's no evidence linking them to any rival motorcycle gangs or clubs, Davidson said.
About 300 people were inside the bar at the time.
The case is under investigation.
Another version on a blog claims the shooter was killed while reloading. Who knows how many lives the CCW holder saved.
The woman, who is licensed to carry a gun, pulled out a .357 revolver and shot the man, who collapsed near some steps. She yelled for someone to call police.
When police arrived, they found the rifle in the grass where he had dropped it. They later discovered that the rifle was stolen on Tuesday.
The suspect, who was shot twice in the abdomen, underwent surgery yesterday morning.
Two news stories about the same event. Turned out the victims were in their 60's.
Kansas City Star, The (MO)
2008-08-03
Section: NEWS
Edition: 1
Page: B1
Bank customer shoots gunman after robbery
RUSS PULLEY, The Kansas City Star
A bank customer shot a robber after an armed confrontation in a Kansas City parking lot Saturday.
The robber was wounded in the head and was in stable condition at a hospital, police said.
The shooting happened about 9 a.m. when a man and a woman were in a car using the automated teller machine at the Bank of America at North Oak Trafficway and Barry Road.
They were robbed at gunpoint, but as the gunman walked away, the man in the car got out armed with his own gun, said Sgt. Chris Lantz of the department's robbery unit.
The man yelled for the robber to stop. When the robber turned around and pointed his gun, the man fired at him, hitting him in the head, Lantz said.
At the scene Saturday, investigators were collecting evidence from a dark sedan parked next to the ATM. An object that looked like a handgun was lying on the pavement. Nearby were apparent bloodstains.
Police interviewed the couple and witnesses.
The robbery victim had a permit to carry a concealed gun, Lantz said. Under the circumstances, Lantz said, that would not matter because he could legally carry the weapon in his car.
No criminal case has been presented, and authorities are waiting to see whether the patient recovers, said Jim Roberts, spokesman for the Clay County prosecutor's office.
Police ask that anyone who witnessed the incident call the TIPS Hotline at 816-474-TIPS (474-8477).
Police: Robbery Victim Shoots Suspect in Bank of America Parking Lot
Last Edited: Saturday, 02 Aug 2008, 6:35 PM CDT
Created: Saturday, 02 Aug 2008, 10:31 AM CDT
Bank of America ATM Shooting on August 2, 2008 SideBar
KANSAS CITY, MO. -- Kansas City, Missouri Police say it appears an attempted robbery victim shot a suspect Saturday morning in a Bank of America parking lot.
Police said just before 9:00 a.m. they received a call to 8320 North Oak Trafficway. A man about 20-years-old had been shot in the head. He was taken to the hospital in critical condition.
Police said it appears the man who was shot was trying to rob people near the Bank of America ATM. One of the two victims pulled out a handgun and shot him in self defense.
Minsky's Pizza manager, Aaron Ness, told FOX 4 he isn't surprised by the crime scene. He said people used to wait by the Bank of America drive thru to rob people. This time it was the ATM, and the victim fought back.
Both a man and woman were in the car withdrawing money from the ATM. Police are not saying who pulled the trigger.
Anyone who witnessed the shooting is asked to call the TIPS Hotline at 474-TIPS.
One Suspect Shot Attempting to Rob Store, Other Flees
Posted: 6:19 PM Jan 22, 2007
We have an update to a shooting we first told you about Friday night.
The victim of the shooting was actually trying to rob the Phillips 66 at 2525 29th St.
Two suspects were holding up the owner of the store, Dean Yee, with a handgun.
A man in the store, 57-year-old Michael Mah, drew a firearm and told one of the suspects to drop his weapon before shooting the 17-year-old.
Mah had a valid concealed carry permit from Oklahoma.
The firearm the robbery suspect used was found to be stolen.
The 17-year-old suspect was treated at a local hospital before being transferred to a Kansas City hospital. He is now in stable condition.
The second suspect was last seen running South on Randolph Street from 29th Street. He is described as an Hispanic male, 18 years of age, wearing a black coat, white t-shirt, red doo-rag and blue jeans.
Police continue to investigate and ask anyone with information to call Detective Kent Biggs at 368-9412 or Crime Stoppers at 234-0007.
ALBUQUERQUE -- A man attacking his ex-wife with a knife inside a southeast Albuquerque Wal Mart was shot and killed by a 72-year-old man Thursday evening.
Man shot is named suspect in sex assaults
Saturday, October 12, 2002
By Lori Shontz, Post-Gazette Staff Writer
A man shot by a woman early Thursday in Homewood has emerged as a suspect in a string of recent sex assaults in the East End.
Police said the suspect, a black man in his early 20s, pointed a rifle at the woman in two separate incidents. The second time, the woman, who is licensed to carry a gun, shot him.
Police were unsure of his name but he was listed in a police affidavit as Jerome Prunty, also known as Jevone Prunty. He was arraigned yesterday morning at UPMC Presbyterian on two counts of simple assault and one count of receiving stolen property.
City Magistrate Moira Harrington ordered him held on $66,000 straight bond. The hospital would not release information about his condition.
Although the man did not try to sexually assault the woman who shot him, police are trying to determine whether he is responsible for attacking five other women in East Liberty, Highland Park and Garfield since late September.
Since midweek, undercover officers have searched for suspects who matched a composite image, but police Cmdr. Maurita Bryant said investigations by that special task force were called off last night. Neither she nor other investigators would say whether that was because they believe the suspect is in custody.
In each of the attacks, a woman was approached from behind, just as the woman Thursday morning was. In three of the five incidents, the man mentioned a weapon or the victim saw it. Those attacks, however, occurred a few miles away from Thursday morning's incident.
Police obtained a search warrant yesterday to take DNA samples from the suspect.
Allegheny County Coroner Dr. Cyril Wecht said that any bodily fluid containing cellular material -- blood, semen, sweat or saliva, for instance -- contains DNA that will be present in test results, which usually take five to seven days. He said a mitochondrial test, which usually looks for DNA in hair samples, takes two to three days to complete. Wecht said cellular tests are more accurate, but the mitochondrial test is "still darn good enough for investigative purposes."
According to the police affidavit, at 4:04 Thursday morning a woman was walking on North Murtland Avenue when a man approached her from behind, pointed a rifle at her and told her to stand there while he shot her. The woman pleaded for her life, then ran and screamed for someone to call the police. The man fled.
About 90 minutes later, the woman was walking on Brushton Avenue and noticed two black men talking on a corner. As she walked up a hill, one of the men came up behind her. When he caught up with her, she realized he was the man who had threatened to shoot her.
She said to the man, "This hill gets to you," and the man agreed. At the top, he was out of breath and sat down. She continued walking, more quickly, and then heard someone running behind her. The man pulled a .22-caliber rifle out of his pants and pointed it at her.Posted - 06/02/2008 : 8:10:08 PM
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Probably won't make the national news. Don't want people to learn how to stop shooters like this dirtbag.
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2008/may/26/3-dead-in-nevada-bar-shooting/
3 dead in Nevada bar shooting
The Associated Press
Mon, May 26, 2008 (12:17 a.m.)
Click here to find out more!
Three men were fatally shot and two other people were injured early Sunday at a bar in the northern Nevada town of Winnemucca, police said, and the shootings may have stemmed from a longstanding feud between several local families.
Winnemucca Police Chief Bob Davidson said a man entered Players Bar and Grill and fatally shot two members of a rival family before he was shot and killed by a patron. All three were pronounced dead at the scene.
The deceased shooter was identified as Ernesto Villagomez, 30, of Winnemucca. The other deceased men were identified as Jose Torres, 20, and his brother, Margarito Torres, 19, both of Winnemucca.
A 34-year-old man and a 22-year-old woman were listed in stable condition with gunshot wounds at the Winnemucca hospital. Their names weren't immediately released.
Sunday's shooting may have been in retaliation for an earlier drive-by shooting involving the families in the town of about 8,000 located 160 miles northeast of Reno, Davidson told Reno's KRNV-TV.
The 48-year-old patron from Reno who killed the shooter was initially taken into custody as a person of interest, but was later released after Humboldt County District Attorney Russell Smith determined the shooting was justifiable homicide.
The patron was in possession of a valid concealed weapons permit issued by the Washoe County Sheriff's office, Davidson said.
While the shootings occurred during the town's annual Runnamucca motorcycle rally, there's no evidence linking them to any rival motorcycle gangs or clubs, Davidson said.
About 300 people were inside the bar at the time.
The case is under investigation.
Another version on a blog claims the shooter was killed while reloading. Who knows how many lives the CCW holder saved.
The woman, who is licensed to carry a gun, pulled out a .357 revolver and shot the man, who collapsed near some steps. She yelled for someone to call police.
When police arrived, they found the rifle in the grass where he had dropped it. They later discovered that the rifle was stolen on Tuesday.
The suspect, who was shot twice in the abdomen, underwent surgery yesterday morning.
@bob@bob - In your first scenario about the armed bank robbery, it reads as if the bank robber is fleeing the scene "after" the commission of a felony.
Personally, If I had a CWP I would not draw down on a fleeing suspect that had his back to me, He's leaving the scene, and is no longer a threat, and risking lawsuits, jail time, shooting an innocent peron etc, would be too high a gamble for me.
I think CWP laws address when, and when you cannot un-holster a firearm, and this scenario seems like too much of a gray area.
Personally, If I had a CWP I would not draw down on a fleeing suspect that had his back to me, He's leaving the scene, and is no longer a threat, and risking lawsuits, jail time, shooting an innocent peron etc, would be too high a gamble for me.
I think CWP laws address when, and when you cannot un-holster a firearm, and this scenario seems like too much of a gray area.
@my own direction - "When the robber turned around and pointed his gun,"
Personally, If I had a CWP I would draw on a robber if he was walking a way from a crime. And if he would turn around I would shoot.
what about the guy in utah a few years ago that chased a bank robber and held him at gun point untill the cops came (i think it was in SLC)
Personally, If I had a CWP I would draw on a robber if he was walking a way from a crime. And if he would turn around I would shoot.
what about the guy in utah a few years ago that chased a bank robber and held him at gun point untill the cops came (i think it was in SLC)
@Kyle1313 - it is rare that a positive story about law abiding citizens protecting themselves with a firearm makes a headline. even in this conservative state firearms are still taboo. but the line about "kids getting their hands on dads gun" is close-minded and bias, it seldom happens. tragic if it does and responsibility falls back on the parent.
@Kyle1313 - about kids getting killed while driving drunk, driving under the influence, or from ATV accidents, etc. and getting killed, than from accidental shootings. Remember the news media only wants you to hear what they think is important - A crime prevented is not news - a robbery, rape, carjacking, etc. - Now that's new's
@squezz2002 - Squezz, I've heard it's illegal to own a gun in Australia. Perhaps you could join the Peace Corps and live with the Aborigines.
@squezz2002 - So you're saying that if it's illegal, the people who SHOULDN'T have guns WON'T have/use them? That doesn't make any sense.
@squezz2002 - Wow just like a democrat, we'll see what he says when he's getting robbed. Wait that wont happen because they are cops readily available at his disposal. Jacka$$
@Robert P. - well if he doesn't have a gun why do i need one
@squezz2002 - So you're thinking that if guns are illegal, noone will have them, right? Because criminals just buy theirs at the local gun shops like the rest of us right? Because they want to obey the law, of course! So the people who are ready to do murder care if the way they want to do it is illegal? Think it through and maybe, just maybe, you will see the error in that train of thought.
@Capnmoby - no they just steal your loaded weapon that you left in your car...so maybe you should keep it safe and lock it up in your house.. remember its pretty hard to steal a gun if there isn't a gun to steal!!
@squezz2002 - That's funny, that was exactly the argument I was going to use as to why more people should carry guns! That mall should have been FULL of citizens blasting the idiot!
@squezz2002 - Look, stupid people are going to do stupid things no matter what. Matches don't cause arson just like guns don't cause murder or "Trolley Square". My CCP means that I get to have the chance to stop stupidity wherever I am whether it be Trolley Square, the corner convienance store, walking down the street, or sitting in my vehicle at a traffice signal. I hope I carry my firearm every day and never have to use it in the manner to protect myself or another citizen, than to have our ability to carry taken away and encounter a situation where a gun would have saved my life or that of someone else around me.
This new law now lets everyone else have the oppurtunity to have a little more security. Yes, everyone should have had the right to keep a loaded firearm in their house already so I'm not really sure if this actually gave anything additional there. But now the late working professional, or Suzie home-maker can have a loaded firearm in their vehicle at all times. They can't take it with them into the store without a CCP, but say Suzie-Q is loading up groceries at Super-Walmart late one evening, local bad guy comes up out of the shadows wanting her purse or more. She pulls out her .357 from under her seat, I bet his switchblade doesn't look so hot anymore. I think this law is great. Does it work for every situation? No, but then, what law does. Again, don't blame matches or gasoline for arson, blame the stupid [removed] behind the crime. Let the citizens keep our guns or the only ones that will have them will be the criminals.
This new law now lets everyone else have the oppurtunity to have a little more security. Yes, everyone should have had the right to keep a loaded firearm in their house already so I'm not really sure if this actually gave anything additional there. But now the late working professional, or Suzie home-maker can have a loaded firearm in their vehicle at all times. They can't take it with them into the store without a CCP, but say Suzie-Q is loading up groceries at Super-Walmart late one evening, local bad guy comes up out of the shadows wanting her purse or more. She pulls out her .357 from under her seat, I bet his switchblade doesn't look so hot anymore. I think this law is great. Does it work for every situation? No, but then, what law does. Again, don't blame matches or gasoline for arson, blame the stupid [removed] behind the crime. Let the citizens keep our guns or the only ones that will have them will be the criminals.
@Jeremy D. - The CCW classes do not train you enough. They are too short and the material is not that good. There is no scenario training where you have to decide if force is needed.
You mentioned Trolley Square. Most people don't realize that there were several people inside with CCW permits and some with their weapon on them. None of them did anything but run. A lot of people talk a big game, but won't back up their talk.
Also, having more people with guns in their car will only cause more problems. The State of Utah has one of teh highest theft rates per capita in the entire country. If you leave your loaded firearm in the car, more criminals will get them when they break into your cars. Then more guns will be in the hands of the people we don't want to have them.
My next concerns are how people will carry their firearms from their cars to their homes. If they carry it loaded without a CCW...they would be breaking the law. So they woule have to unload the gun in their car, carry it in their house with teh ammo in a seperate case. When they get in their car, they would have to load it again. Unless they leave the gun in the car all of the time.....bad idea.
This Bill is dumb. A better bill would be to require more training for CCW and a campaign to urge people to get their CCW. In addition a yearly recertification class would be a good idea.
Many people who have CCW permits do not fully understand it's limitations. Trust me I deal with this all of the time as a police officer. I have had numerous occasions where people play vigilanty with their CCW permits. They need more training that a quick class with a brief weapons familiarity, concepts on sight picture, alignment and trigger contro. A brief on the laws. Finally a very VERY easy qualification shoot, that is very static, no moving, or dynamic shooting. No scenerios and no simmunition training......seriously it is a joke. But ask many people with a CCW and they will think they have as much training as the police.
I am not saying they need to have that much training, but the CCW class is weak. And this Bill is a disaster waiting to happen. I hope I am wrong.
You mentioned Trolley Square. Most people don't realize that there were several people inside with CCW permits and some with their weapon on them. None of them did anything but run. A lot of people talk a big game, but won't back up their talk.
Also, having more people with guns in their car will only cause more problems. The State of Utah has one of teh highest theft rates per capita in the entire country. If you leave your loaded firearm in the car, more criminals will get them when they break into your cars. Then more guns will be in the hands of the people we don't want to have them.
My next concerns are how people will carry their firearms from their cars to their homes. If they carry it loaded without a CCW...they would be breaking the law. So they woule have to unload the gun in their car, carry it in their house with teh ammo in a seperate case. When they get in their car, they would have to load it again. Unless they leave the gun in the car all of the time.....bad idea.
This Bill is dumb. A better bill would be to require more training for CCW and a campaign to urge people to get their CCW. In addition a yearly recertification class would be a good idea.
Many people who have CCW permits do not fully understand it's limitations. Trust me I deal with this all of the time as a police officer. I have had numerous occasions where people play vigilanty with their CCW permits. They need more training that a quick class with a brief weapons familiarity, concepts on sight picture, alignment and trigger contro. A brief on the laws. Finally a very VERY easy qualification shoot, that is very static, no moving, or dynamic shooting. No scenerios and no simmunition training......seriously it is a joke. But ask many people with a CCW and they will think they have as much training as the police.
I am not saying they need to have that much training, but the CCW class is weak. And this Bill is a disaster waiting to happen. I hope I am wrong.
@Thetruthtold - Are you seriously a law enforcement officer? If so we are in trouble. If you carry a loaded weapon from your car, to your house, then you are on your property. Get it!
You said some individuals at Trolley Square did not engage the shooter but ran away. First where is your proof. Second, if their lives we not in danger they are not trained to seek out and confront the bad guy. Some may but you can't have it both ways where you complain about the lack of training and then condemn someone who is not trained to go seek out and neutralize the bad guy.
As for "police training" many cops take the minimum and they don't seek out proffessional training. I have only heard two recent stories in Utah of self inflicted accidental gun shot wounds and both were Utah cops so get off your high horse and encourage everyone to take additional training.
You said some individuals at Trolley Square did not engage the shooter but ran away. First where is your proof. Second, if their lives we not in danger they are not trained to seek out and confront the bad guy. Some may but you can't have it both ways where you complain about the lack of training and then condemn someone who is not trained to go seek out and neutralize the bad guy.
As for "police training" many cops take the minimum and they don't seek out proffessional training. I have only heard two recent stories in Utah of self inflicted accidental gun shot wounds and both were Utah cops so get off your high horse and encourage everyone to take additional training.
@Outlaw Red - Happens all of the freaking time. Only very few make the news. Ask any fireman, cop or EMT. On the Trolley Square thing, I may just be privy to more knowlegde than you are on that event.
@Outlaw Red - Happens all of the freaking time. Only very few make the news. Ask any fireman, cop or EMT. On the Trolley Square thing, I may just be privy to more knowlegde than you are on that event.
@Thetruthtold - Why would they need to unload in their car and carry the weapon and ammo in 2 separate cases into their homes?
In Utah, a gun isn't considered loaded if 2 or more actions are required to fire it. Set the safety, eject the magazine, and it isn't loaded. Or they could just openly carry the gun into their home, so long as it is in plain sight, it is not illegal. A concealed carry permit, allows you to do just that...carry concealed.
In Utah, a gun isn't considered loaded if 2 or more actions are required to fire it. Set the safety, eject the magazine, and it isn't loaded. Or they could just openly carry the gun into their home, so long as it is in plain sight, it is not illegal. A concealed carry permit, allows you to do just that...carry concealed.
@Freeman1 - You don't even have to eject the magazine. Just make sure there isn't a cartridge in the chamber.
All you have to do is turn off the safety and cock the gun to get it ready to fire. That's too much time for me until I can shoot, which is why I have a CCW, but still.... A law-abiding citizen has a means of protection.
Oh, and Open Carry is legal in Utah without a CCW permit.
All you have to do is turn off the safety and cock the gun to get it ready to fire. That's too much time for me until I can shoot, which is why I have a CCW, but still.... A law-abiding citizen has a means of protection.
Oh, and Open Carry is legal in Utah without a CCW permit.
@Freeman1 - I got the loading thing crossed with something else. A gun is considered loaded when it is one mechanical action from firing (pulling the trigger is one action)
My conern is this:
When people using this Bill have a loaded firearm in their car and travel to somewhere besides their homes like shopping malls, movie theaters, sporting events, schools, parks, hiking trails, libraries, restaurants etc. They have three options. The first one is what really scares me.
1. Leave a loaded firearm in yout car where you take the risk of getting it stolen and put in the hands of a criminal. Criminals will get into your glove box, and trunk. So without a bolted in safe, they will get your gun.
2. You can take the gun with you, but without a CCW permit you would have to carry the gun unloaded in an open carry fashion. Having a firearm concealed even if it's not loaded is a crime without a CCW permit. This would require you to unload it while in your car. Carry it in the open in a holster. Then if you wanted, load it again when you are in your car. This causes your gun to leave your holster twice for one stop.
3. Get a CCW permit. It requires a background check and some training. I only wish the training was more intensive. As far as otehr commenst about police training be a minimum.....it's a minimum much higher than a CCW permit class. There are around 60 hours of class instruction just for firearms and their lawfull use. Plus easily over a hundred hours of actual shooting. Plus annual qualifications for each of your guns, duty gun, off duty gun, rifle, shotgun, sub guns etc. Plus most officer shoot at least once a month.
I am not saying that CCW needs that level, but some scenario training specific for the CCW would be very good. Plus some shooting on the move etc. Because you are responsible for every roudn you fire. I woudl also like to see either annual or semi annual recert for CCW. With class updates and review and more practical shooting. I am all for good citizens having guns, but I want them to feel 100% cofident in when and how to use them. Given that I have been through the CCW class, and sat in on another I feel the training is not good enough and could be better.
My conern is this:
When people using this Bill have a loaded firearm in their car and travel to somewhere besides their homes like shopping malls, movie theaters, sporting events, schools, parks, hiking trails, libraries, restaurants etc. They have three options. The first one is what really scares me.
1. Leave a loaded firearm in yout car where you take the risk of getting it stolen and put in the hands of a criminal. Criminals will get into your glove box, and trunk. So without a bolted in safe, they will get your gun.
2. You can take the gun with you, but without a CCW permit you would have to carry the gun unloaded in an open carry fashion. Having a firearm concealed even if it's not loaded is a crime without a CCW permit. This would require you to unload it while in your car. Carry it in the open in a holster. Then if you wanted, load it again when you are in your car. This causes your gun to leave your holster twice for one stop.
3. Get a CCW permit. It requires a background check and some training. I only wish the training was more intensive. As far as otehr commenst about police training be a minimum.....it's a minimum much higher than a CCW permit class. There are around 60 hours of class instruction just for firearms and their lawfull use. Plus easily over a hundred hours of actual shooting. Plus annual qualifications for each of your guns, duty gun, off duty gun, rifle, shotgun, sub guns etc. Plus most officer shoot at least once a month.
I am not saying that CCW needs that level, but some scenario training specific for the CCW would be very good. Plus some shooting on the move etc. Because you are responsible for every roudn you fire. I woudl also like to see either annual or semi annual recert for CCW. With class updates and review and more practical shooting. I am all for good citizens having guns, but I want them to feel 100% cofident in when and how to use them. Given that I have been through the CCW class, and sat in on another I feel the training is not good enough and could be better.
@Thetruthtold - There are several points I agree with you on.
1) I don't like the thought of someone leaving a loaded gun in a car either. Sometimes I have to though (even with a CCW). So my solution is to remove the clip (and the bullet in the chamber) and keep them in my pocket. Then I put the gun in the trunk. Although it could still be stolen and a new clip purchased, they can't immediately use it to hurt someone and hopefully it will buy the Police some time to track down the criminal. I have thought about installing a small gun safe in the trunk (bolted to the chassis). Then it would take some serious work to get the weapon. It would definitely stop "Smash-and-Grab."
2) In my opinion I don't see this as that big of a deal. I've loaded my gun several times in my car. Always pointed in a safe direction (usually down) and my finger off the trigger. I don't see how any misfires could happen in that situation?
3) I agree that CCW holders should practice/train more often. Before I got mine I spent $200 and got some training from off duty SWAT members. Worth every penny! :-) They went over the laws, we demonstrated proficiency, and they had us shoot at targets on the move, under stress, etc. so it would be more like real life conditions.
On the flip side though, because I firmly believe that having a gun is a God-Given right, I don't think we should dictate the amount of required training.
1) I don't like the thought of someone leaving a loaded gun in a car either. Sometimes I have to though (even with a CCW). So my solution is to remove the clip (and the bullet in the chamber) and keep them in my pocket. Then I put the gun in the trunk. Although it could still be stolen and a new clip purchased, they can't immediately use it to hurt someone and hopefully it will buy the Police some time to track down the criminal. I have thought about installing a small gun safe in the trunk (bolted to the chassis). Then it would take some serious work to get the weapon. It would definitely stop "Smash-and-Grab."
2) In my opinion I don't see this as that big of a deal. I've loaded my gun several times in my car. Always pointed in a safe direction (usually down) and my finger off the trigger. I don't see how any misfires could happen in that situation?
3) I agree that CCW holders should practice/train more often. Before I got mine I spent $200 and got some training from off duty SWAT members. Worth every penny! :-) They went over the laws, we demonstrated proficiency, and they had us shoot at targets on the move, under stress, etc. so it would be more like real life conditions.
On the flip side though, because I firmly believe that having a gun is a God-Given right, I don't think we should dictate the amount of required training.
@Thetruthtold - I only brought up Trolly Square in response to the earlier mention to it. No, not every CCP holder has the training required to get into a firefight and engage an active shooter like in that situation. During most conceal classes, they talk about being aware of your surroundings, making sure what is behind your target, etc. Even for experienced shooters, there are still many aspects that need to be thought out quickly before engaging an active shooter. Myself, I am a decorated expert marksman on every weapon I have ever qualified with when I was in the military, both rifle and short range. I keep my skills up at the local gun range as well so I am confidant in myself and my guns. I wouldn't doubt that there were probably a few CCP holders in the mall the day of the Trolly Square shooting. How many of them were first concerned about getting their wives and children or those around them to safety? How many of them were too far away and had a short range weapon such as a Kel-Tec so they decided not to engage? How many of them had too powerful of a firearm and had innocent people behind the shooter and were unsure if they would be able to hit just him or if their bullets would have gone through and hit more people? These are choices that every CCP holder has to make in a situation like this.
It is a much easier decision to be standing in the chip isle of the local gas station and hear the local "gangster" come in and hold the place up. Position yourself for a clear shot with no innocent people in the background and you have a great shot at detaining him alive if he surrenders, you have a covered position to fire from if he turns and takes aim, or he may just take flight and you have just foiled a robbery and you can call in a description with a direction fled to the police.
Truthbetold, you are correct, there isn't enough training in the CCP classes for holders to engage active shooters in situations like Trolly Square. There is enough for them to be given the basics to make decisions on their own as to whether it's a situation they should get people safe in, pull their guns out and return fire, or what. I described only a couple possible situations. If you want CCP classes to train more in depth, please feel free to get licenses to teach the classes. Down here in SoUtah one of the most popular instructors is a 30+ year law enforcement officer that offers the class off duty and goes above and beyond the bare minimum that is required. He won't sign anyone off until he has personally seen them at the shooting range and knows they are comfortable with their gun in a close range shooting style and can handle what they choose to shoot with. You think that the world needs better instruction for concealed carry, you have the power to change it and you can even make some money while you do it.
So to sum all that up Truthbetold, I'd be willing to bet that if you were ever in a store when it was being held up or the victom of a home invasion, you'd be wishing that you were hanging out with me or a guy just like me. I don't care if you are law enforcement as some people think you may be by your comments, I know plenty of law enforcement that I can outdraw and outshoot, even with my close range firearms. And I know plenty that have ran their wives and children to safety instead of firing back on an active shooter in an off-duty situation as well, plus the ones that ran without their wives and children. So law enforcement (which I was before the military) doesn't mean that you're any better with your off duty weapon than we civilians are with our CCW's. General rule of thumb, yes, more trained and more experienced, but 100%, not even close.
It is a much easier decision to be standing in the chip isle of the local gas station and hear the local "gangster" come in and hold the place up. Position yourself for a clear shot with no innocent people in the background and you have a great shot at detaining him alive if he surrenders, you have a covered position to fire from if he turns and takes aim, or he may just take flight and you have just foiled a robbery and you can call in a description with a direction fled to the police.
Truthbetold, you are correct, there isn't enough training in the CCP classes for holders to engage active shooters in situations like Trolly Square. There is enough for them to be given the basics to make decisions on their own as to whether it's a situation they should get people safe in, pull their guns out and return fire, or what. I described only a couple possible situations. If you want CCP classes to train more in depth, please feel free to get licenses to teach the classes. Down here in SoUtah one of the most popular instructors is a 30+ year law enforcement officer that offers the class off duty and goes above and beyond the bare minimum that is required. He won't sign anyone off until he has personally seen them at the shooting range and knows they are comfortable with their gun in a close range shooting style and can handle what they choose to shoot with. You think that the world needs better instruction for concealed carry, you have the power to change it and you can even make some money while you do it.
So to sum all that up Truthbetold, I'd be willing to bet that if you were ever in a store when it was being held up or the victom of a home invasion, you'd be wishing that you were hanging out with me or a guy just like me. I don't care if you are law enforcement as some people think you may be by your comments, I know plenty of law enforcement that I can outdraw and outshoot, even with my close range firearms. And I know plenty that have ran their wives and children to safety instead of firing back on an active shooter in an off-duty situation as well, plus the ones that ran without their wives and children. So law enforcement (which I was before the military) doesn't mean that you're any better with your off duty weapon than we civilians are with our CCW's. General rule of thumb, yes, more trained and more experienced, but 100%, not even close.
@squezz2002 - We already have a bunch of idiots that shouldn't have them. They are kids, felons and non-citizens. The kid that shot the people at Trolley Square was a perfect example.
This bill will not give these people causing the majority of deaths and injuries with weapons the right to own one.
This bill will not give these people causing the majority of deaths and injuries with weapons the right to own one.
@squezz2002 - When did you buy your gun?
Seriously though, there is a law against shooting people and the freak at Trolly square didn't care.
See, that's the point. Dirt-bag criminals don't care about the law. That's why citizens need to be able to protect themselves.
Seriously though, there is a law against shooting people and the freak at Trolly square didn't care.
See, that's the point. Dirt-bag criminals don't care about the law. That's why citizens need to be able to protect themselves.
Perhaps you should leave your saftey off while your loaded revoler under your pillow at night..
@squezz2002 - I know someone who was killed by some thugs with bats. Will you please help me get baseball outlawed?
@YoureTheTroll - why the bats the problem what did the baseball do...
@squezz2002 - Revolvers dont have safeties, thought you might want to know...
Yes I do remember Trolley Square. I remember how a law abiding citizen (who happened to be an off duty cop) stepped up and confronted the shooter so that he could not continue his killing spree. Thank goodness some of our government officials realize that putting guns into the hands of responsible citizens is by far the most effective way to combat violent crime. Do you really think that passing more restricting gun laws would have altered the actions of this criminal? No gun law can keep criminals from getting guns. Laws only effect those who obey them. Do you think the Trolley Square shooter would have done what he did if he would have known that someone else close by had a gun? No he wouldn't have, and that is exactly why allowing law abiding citizens carry firearms is an extremely effective way to fight crime. Way to go to all those who voted for this bill (Republicans and Democrats).
Is that the same law abiding citizen that was fired and charge for rape
@squezz2002 - At no time has Hammond EVER been "charged for rape".
Your salacious comments and poor demeanor speak well for your Ninth Grade acievements.
Your salacious comments and poor demeanor speak well for your Ninth Grade acievements.
News like this makes me love living in Utah.
@thehop - Montana lawmakers are betting the words "Made in Montana" might be able to trigger a court showdown with the federal government, while also freeing some gun owners and dealers from background checks and licensing requirements.
Under a proposed law before the Legislature, firearms, weapons components and ammunition made in Montana and kept in Montana would be exempt from federal regulation, potentially releasing some Montanans from national gun registration and licensing laws. The legislation could also free gun purchasers in the state from background checks.
The bill’s proponents say the measure has much bigger prey in its sights. The issue here is not about firearms. It’s about state rights.
Under a proposed law before the Legislature, firearms, weapons components and ammunition made in Montana and kept in Montana would be exempt from federal regulation, potentially releasing some Montanans from national gun registration and licensing laws. The legislation could also free gun purchasers in the state from background checks.
The bill’s proponents say the measure has much bigger prey in its sights. The issue here is not about firearms. It’s about state rights.
I know that a loaded gun in your car without a CFP has been a no-no. Didn't know that the state had any business telling me I can't keep a loaded gun in my house or property whether or not I have a CFP. Personally I don't think they should have any say in any of these venues but espescially not my home of business.
If we all (law abiding and responsible citizens I mean) carried guns. I think this world would be a lot better place. Criminals would be less willing to attack if they thought they might be SHOT! And I agree wholeheartedly with previous posters, if guns are outlawed ONLY CRIMINALS AND THE GOVERNMENT WILL HAVE THEM. Yeah that sound like a world I want to live in. Although I live in rural Utah you can sure bet my .357 is loaded. And my kids are well aware of the dangers of guns, just as I was. I grew up handling them and was always aware of the dangers and have always had a healthy respect for weapons, as my children do. It's like anything else, you cloak it in secrecy and mystery they are more interested. You teach them right from wrong, they understand. That is not to say they are in easy reach of my children, or where they can get to them, or know where they are, but I would rather my kids be SAFE, wouldn't you? Again, if guns are outlawed ONLY CRIMINALS AND THE GOVERNMENT WILL HAVE THEM. Not smart in my opinion. Had there not been a responsible weapon owner in Trolley Square how many more innocents would have died before the police would have been able to stop him? In the college and school shootings imagine if one or two responsible teachers (they are responsible right as we trust them with our kids?) had weapons and CCW's imagine how many kids lives they could have saved. Think before you type people! Sheesh!
right from your car.
@Drummerselbow - Because someone who spent that much $$ is going to leave it easily accessible to all? My husband and I always have a gun in our truck, (not loaded as in the past you can have a weapon and ammo in your vehicle if it takes you at least 4 motions to get it loaded), and we have never had worries of anyone stealing it, wanna know why? Most people don't know it is there, in fact the only people who do are close friends and family who have gone shooting with us. So, as things stand with all you liberals out there, a person likely stands a 1 in 10 chance of hitting a vehicle with a gun in it, about like homes, yeah there is a chance my home will be broke into and our guns stolen, as happened to my brother, but it is a chance I am willing to take. Cause if they are stupid enough to break in while I am home they might meet the other end of that weapon!
@POTTER - then your weapon might be found and then used in the commission of another crime. I am not against the bill so much as i am against unattended weapons. I get to carry my weapon because i am a permit holder and that suits me fine. I would rather not leave my weapon in a vehicle because it's no good to me there.
@Drummerselbow - It is no good to you when you are not in your vehicle, but if its not an option to pack it then what? Yeah there is a chance someone could get it, but isn't there a chance someone could break into your house and steal one? I am sure if you are like most of us gun owners you have more then one, and some stay home without you. Then what? Your not home all the time....
@POTTER - exercising their rights and i wholeheartedly agree in principle to the bill, but we just might see an increase in unattended weapons in vehicles and that my dear POTTER is all that is causing me concern. After all you do know that guns are stolen out of houses so now why not cars too.
@Drummerselbow - It's likely to happen, but that will not keep me from exercising my rights. Fear of criminals does not keep me from exercising my rights, in fact it inspires me to. Again, it's just as easy to get them from our homes, in fact likely easier because sportsmen are easy to spot, specially if you live around them. I think they would have an easier time pinking the "right" house then the "right" car.
But then I don't. I have a permit, so I can carry in my vehicle, and then when I get out at the grocery store, I can carry the weapon inside with me.
The person without the permit will get to the grocery store and, by law, must leave the weapon in their vehicle. Too many criminals get their guns from auto burglaries.
I don't know, I'll always vote to see more gun rights for those of us who follow rules, but I'm a little torn on the vehicle portion of this one. I'd rather the firearm leave the vehicle with its law-abiding owner.
The person without the permit will get to the grocery store and, by law, must leave the weapon in their vehicle. Too many criminals get their guns from auto burglaries.
I don't know, I'll always vote to see more gun rights for those of us who follow rules, but I'm a little torn on the vehicle portion of this one. I'd rather the firearm leave the vehicle with its law-abiding owner.
@Reckoner - That's a point, but my husband and I always have a weapon in our truck, but no one but family knows it is there. I think they have a pretty poor chance of breaking helter-skelter into cars and finding one. There is a chance, but isn't there a chance they could break into your house and get one? That actually happened to my brother, he was coming home from work and just missed the guy. It's a chance you take, but would you go without your weapon to avoid that chance? I sure wouldn't. And what if you went somewhere like Trolley Square, where even CCW carries are told not to pack. What do you do then? Not go in, or leave your weapon in your vehicle? (By the way, I think this is a ridiculous policy on their part, if it is true, as many people were saved by a CCW carrier and criminals wouldn't obey anyway!) Yikes who makes this rules?)
This has to make every police officer in Utah have nightmares. Now they can expect every nut job in the State that they stop to be packing heat.
When giving someone the finger just wont do, give them a .45 slug.
When giving someone the finger just wont do, give them a .45 slug.
@no cpr - they were already breaking the law with the gun before (like having stolen it) and so this law wont affect them.
@no cpr - only let the law abiding citizen carry in there vehicle. The nut job has been doing it sence the first car rolled off the prodution line.
@no cpr - I'm pretty sure if they were that big of "nut job" they were already "packing heat" before the law.
All this does is allow honest law-abiding people to defend themselves.
If I were a 5'2", 120lb woman, it would be comforting to know that I have something to defend myself from a rape.
All this does is allow honest law-abiding people to defend themselves.
If I were a 5'2", 120lb woman, it would be comforting to know that I have something to defend myself from a rape.
Even though the Trib editorial doesn't think so. They of course are against it because they think that any place there is a gun that it will go off by itself and the sky is falling....bla...bla....bla. I wish that those who are constantly against any good pro-gun laws that help citizens protect themselves would just think back to about 1995 when Utah and many other states started allowing people to obtain concealed weapons permits. The liberals were literally screaming bloody murder and they were convinced that we would all be shooting each other and that you just couldn't let regular folks run around with loaded guns!!! Well, it's been about 13 years since then and guess what? It's working just fine. The ability to protect oneself and your loved ones lives is a God-given right. It is not something that the government "allows" us to do!!!!
some of these laws are already in place.I have the gun law book in front of me for Utah.It states that you can have a loaded gun in your place of residence or temporary residence or camp without a permit.also your place of business if you own it.in your car it must be unloaded and out of arms reach in a secure case without a permit.with a permit it can be loaded. My son and I was pulled over two years back for speeding on are way hunting with two unloaded guns in the back of the car and was givin a warning ticket for not having my guns cased.I now have a carry permit and now carry loaded. Its your right to protect your family and yourself. KEEP PACKIN BE SAFE
ps. carry the law book with you in your car because even the guys that make and inforce the laws dont know what they are
ps. carry the law book with you in your car because even the guys that make and inforce the laws dont know what they are
@Loreena P. - My husband was told, by a police officer, that a weapon doesn't have to be in a case without a permit, but that it has to take more then 4 actions to load the weapon. If it is less you are in violation. Is that anywhere in your book? Where would I get one as I would love to have one BTW> Thanks!
@POTTER - With "Plain-Talk" Summaries by Attorney Mitch Vilos
Should be able to get it at most gun stores.
I got mine at Get Some Guns 6651 S State St, Murray
Should be able to get it at most gun stores.
I got mine at Get Some Guns 6651 S State St, Murray
@POTTER - It states must be unloaded not concealed must be in securely encased which means completely enclosed in container even though not locked how ever cannot be placed in glove box or console.thats without a permit with a permit you can carry it loaded and concealed.A firearm with a bullet in the chamber is loaded.pistols and revolvers are loaded if the operation of any mechanism once would cause the gun to fire
Not that I would, but what happens if I leave my firearm in my vehicle and my spouse takes the car not knowing that the firearm is in the vehicle, and say he or she gets pulled over by police. If they find that firearm, loaded or unloaded, they would be charged with the obvious. This law would protect them as well. After all, don't we all think that our personal vehicles are an extension of our homes?
@Scott D. - If your stupid enough to leave a gun in your car you shouldn't have one, scenerio also goes if your kids were waiting for you in the car and happened to come across it
@squezz2002 - That's why you teach your kids about them. I guarantee that your children are more likely to be hurt from a weapon then mine, as mine are VERY aware of them, and respectful of them. Yours just might be curious enough to "play" with one.
@POTTER - Yeah at your house... because the don't exsit at mine...I don't need them, I can lock my doors at night.. and if someone wants to put a gun too my head for $$$ they need it more then me..
@squezz2002 - And if someone puts a gun to my head for money (or any reason!), then they have absolutely no self-preservation instinct. :-)
@squezz2002 - Try and each your children about gun safety so if that were to happen they would know better than to touch it. Gun education takes away curiosity and plain old ignorance.
@squezz2002 - I'm sure it is firearm ignorance that makes you think the way you do. You don't need a gun? Where do you live, I would like to come visit.
@Scott D. - I would be happy to give you that info right across the street from the main police station in midvale....why are you threating me with harm..do you know thats is a crime...That crime can get all your guns taken away...then what will you do...
@squezz2002 - I merely stated that I would like to visit a place where "Nothing is going to happen to me, and I don't need to protect myself or my family." Really Squuezz, where the hell do you live because I don't think you are facing reality and what is happening in this country. Crap happens everyday to good people like you and me everyday for no apparent reason. Wouldn't you like to have a say in whether you live or die by someone else's hand. Stand up for yourself and don't become a victim of circumstance. God doesn't want you to die at the selfish acts of a "criminal".
Yes that is the same law abiding citizen who was accused of rape, what we were talking about was gun laws and how they don't effect people like the Trolley square shooter and how if someone abides by all laws that effect your right to carry a firearm then that person should be able to do so, remember? Please refer back to the subject of the article that you are commenting about. I am sure there will be other opportunities to voice your comment about how people should loose certain rights when they break laws that are not relevent to those rights, please refrain from commenting until then.
Our law regarding weapons in vehicles was horribly confusing in application. It has been quite difficult to transport weapons in your vehicle without running afoul with the law. It was not intuitive at all.
This is a great day for freedom.
Side Note: People need to remember that we have a constitutionally protected RIGHT to keep AND bear firearms. That right is not conditional on weather we have passed a course, can shoot straight, etc.
The next thing that needs to be done is the abolition of fees for concealed carry permits. Having a CCW is about the only way you can exercise your right to bear arms in Utah. (We don't charge liberals for exercising their freedom of speech; ie: charge them $10 for each dumb thing said) What other constitutional rights should tax? Abortion? Oh...wait... that is not a constitutional right. (some crazy judges excepting)
This is a great day for freedom.
Side Note: People need to remember that we have a constitutionally protected RIGHT to keep AND bear firearms. That right is not conditional on weather we have passed a course, can shoot straight, etc.
The next thing that needs to be done is the abolition of fees for concealed carry permits. Having a CCW is about the only way you can exercise your right to bear arms in Utah. (We don't charge liberals for exercising their freedom of speech; ie: charge them $10 for each dumb thing said) What other constitutional rights should tax? Abortion? Oh...wait... that is not a constitutional right. (some crazy judges excepting)
@Brandon P. - You make a great point. Unfortunately because the class was $50 and the permit something like $65 only my husband has his CCW, I have to wait for mine till we have more in the financial area. I thought it was ridiculous to charge $65 for a little piece of plastic. And yes it IS our GOD GIVEN right, why are we paying out the nose? Oh yeah Liberals scream louder...
@POTTER - but the application fee breaks down to $35 for the app. and permit processing and $32.50 goes to the F.B.I. toprocess the fingerprint card.
My comment was just Stating he is not a law abiding citizen if he was later charged with rape..also at the time he was an off duty Police officer. A person that was trained how to use a weapon. I have no problem with police officer carrying a weapon. Its idiots that just want too think there cool with a 9 on there hip..or in direct reference to this article, under there seat..sorry some day we will all learn that we don't need to protect people from each other. Mind your P's and Q's and don't go looking for trouble. Stop trying to be a hero...Is kill some one or getting killed really worth $100. I have no problems with guns for recreational reason.. but to think the world is coming to an end at any moment is a joke. stop being scared of your own shadow....BOO!! don't shoot me
@squezz2002 - Really do you go back and read your own comments? I guarantee that if more criminals knew there were bunches of us with guns they would be less likely to attack at random. And unfortunately, YES we do have to protect ourselves and each other. I am not afraid of my own shadow but you can bet I have heard of enough women being attacked to know I am better off having some kind of protection, be it mace or a weapon. I hope I never have to use a weapon, but what's the old adage, better to have it and not need it, rather then need it and not have it? By the way, I don't feel cool, I feel safe!
@POTTER - Good for you...I'm glad it makes you feel safe. i feel safe without it...but the truth is you make me unsafe with it..
@squezz2002 - You'll sure appreciate the "hero" that saves your butt when you are in a store and some crazy nut comes to do you harm.
@squezz2002 - You'll sure appreciate the "hero" that saves your butt when you are in a store and some crazy nut comes to do you harm.
@squezz2002 - you're and idiot.
'some day we will learn that we don't need to protect people from each other' is the most asinine comment I have ever heard on this site!
Just tap your shoes together to take you to your happy place, peanut, and all will be fine.
I'll stand up, draw down, and help keep people, even idiots like you, safer.
'nuff said. not that it will sink in...
'some day we will learn that we don't need to protect people from each other' is the most asinine comment I have ever heard on this site!
Just tap your shoes together to take you to your happy place, peanut, and all will be fine.
I'll stand up, draw down, and help keep people, even idiots like you, safer.
'nuff said. not that it will sink in...
@MOUNTAINMAN - Do you know if you shoot someone trying to protect someone else its murder..not self defense..
@squezz2002 - legal "ex-spurtise". Once again, your post is a flat out LIE.
You have NO knowledge of the law in Utah, Nationally or in any other State, Territory in the Republic.
Yet, you DO have the Constitutionally garunteed right to continue to make an utter fool of yourself in the name of "banter". My only concern for what you are attempting to (and I use this term loosely) "communicate", is that some Yew-tard MIGHT actually think you are correct.
Where DO these creatures get spawned from? Can't we get Planned Parenthood to offer low-cost or no-c0ot vasectomies so that we can END the reproduction of these piles of human debris like "squezz2002"?
I for one would be pleased to contribute significant amounts of funds to further this cause for a truly better society.
You have NO knowledge of the law in Utah, Nationally or in any other State, Territory in the Republic.
Yet, you DO have the Constitutionally garunteed right to continue to make an utter fool of yourself in the name of "banter". My only concern for what you are attempting to (and I use this term loosely) "communicate", is that some Yew-tard MIGHT actually think you are correct.
Where DO these creatures get spawned from? Can't we get Planned Parenthood to offer low-cost or no-c0ot vasectomies so that we can END the reproduction of these piles of human debris like "squezz2002"?
I for one would be pleased to contribute significant amounts of funds to further this cause for a truly better society.
It seems to me that there is the same or greater probability of something bad happening from transporting a loaded weapon then there is of when realistically I would need to protect my family from some heinous act against them.
@Mike B. - the likelihood of an accidental discharge of a firearm carrying it into your home is minute, unless you are completely unfamiliar with its operation. Modern firearms don't just 'go off' without the careless handling of a person involved. Many newer pistols are very difficult to rack a round, cock and engage/disengage safeties unless the user is familiar with the operation. My wife cannot rack the slide of most pistols; fewer children can as well. Just keep the weapons under your control, teach all around you the possible dangers as well as benefits, and all will be well.
I'm sure that if you were packing a sword around, you'd be careful with it, just as with any firearm.
P.S. bad stuff happens all around. Not being prepared to protect your family from 'heinous' acts is the crime.
'nuff said.
I'm sure that if you were packing a sword around, you'd be careful with it, just as with any firearm.
P.S. bad stuff happens all around. Not being prepared to protect your family from 'heinous' acts is the crime.
'nuff said.
@Mike B. - the likelihood of an accidental discharge of a firearm carrying it into your home is minute, unless you are completely unfamiliar with its operation. Modern firearms don't just 'go off' without the careless handling of a person involved. Many newer pistols are very difficult to rack a round, cock and engage/disengage safeties unless the user is familiar with the operation. My wife cannot rack the slide of most pistols; fewer children can as well. Just keep the weapons under your control, teach all around you the possible dangers as well as benefits, and all will be well.
I'm sure that if you were packing a sword around, you'd be careful with it, just as with any firearm.
P.S. bad stuff happens all around. Not being prepared to protect your family from 'heinous' acts is the crime.
'nuff said.
I'm sure that if you were packing a sword around, you'd be careful with it, just as with any firearm.
P.S. bad stuff happens all around. Not being prepared to protect your family from 'heinous' acts is the crime.
'nuff said.
@Mike B. - was, "I can't believe they are trying to kill me".
About the time YOU personally realize that something untoward is happening, it will be too late for YOU to do anything that remotely is of assistance to your family, friends and loved ones.
AS with all Constitutionally garunteed rights, it's O.K. by me of YOU choose to not exercise yours, just don't expect me to turn butt up in submission tp the latest reincarnation of the Manson Family, because it might "offend" your delicate lack of reality.
You have never faced anything more threatening than a car payment, and I hope and pray you never do, statistcally, if you have three females in YOUR family, at least one of them will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime.(US Deptarment of Justice-FBI Uniform Crime Reports) That "sexual assalt" is defined as unwanted, intentional or violent touching, attacks, assaults for sexual gratification.(of the suspect)
While your altruism is laudable, the overwhelming statistically majority of folks who think just like you, are indeed referred to by the Criminal Justice System as "victims". Sorry to burst your bubble, but that is our national reality.
About the time YOU personally realize that something untoward is happening, it will be too late for YOU to do anything that remotely is of assistance to your family, friends and loved ones.
AS with all Constitutionally garunteed rights, it's O.K. by me of YOU choose to not exercise yours, just don't expect me to turn butt up in submission tp the latest reincarnation of the Manson Family, because it might "offend" your delicate lack of reality.
You have never faced anything more threatening than a car payment, and I hope and pray you never do, statistcally, if you have three females in YOUR family, at least one of them will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime.(US Deptarment of Justice-FBI Uniform Crime Reports) That "sexual assalt" is defined as unwanted, intentional or violent touching, attacks, assaults for sexual gratification.(of the suspect)
While your altruism is laudable, the overwhelming statistically majority of folks who think just like you, are indeed referred to by the Criminal Justice System as "victims". Sorry to burst your bubble, but that is our national reality.
at this law and the majority of the comments here. I think that if it is that important for you to carry a loaded firearm in your vehicle, have one in your home ect. Then you should be granted that priviledge! But with that priviledge comes added responsibility, one of them should be your willingness to attend a CCW course and pass it. That to me would demonstrate that you are a responsible citizen. The course is easy to take and pass and doesn't cost that much. If you got a conceled weapons/carry permit, you wouldn't have to leave the gun in the car when you went into the store,mall,show. I think the current law requiring the permit has value and shouldn't be circumvented.
In summary, if you want to carry, by all means do it. But show that you are responsible enough to get proper training first!
In summary, if you want to carry, by all means do it. But show that you are responsible enough to get proper training first!
@Harleykidd - Ummm, last I checked, owning guns was a right, Not a privilege. Driving a car is a privilege. Keeping and bearing arms is a right.
The problem is not having a gun in your car or home, it's the actual act of shooting. If you do it right, you can be a hero or a survivor. Do it wrong and your life is ruined. For example, a heated argument in traffic. Guy reaches inside his car to grab his digital camera to take a pic of the accident and the other driver, who's already irate, thinks the guy is pulling a gun and bang, shoots him and kills him. Ooops. "I thought he had a gun..." No defense. Murder. Conviction. Jail time.
Given the number of armed idiots out there now, 1 out of 10 will probably o mess up and kill someone because he or she "thought" the other person had a gun. People with guns who are mentally unstable are not only a danger to themselves but to others around them. Having said that, I think all NORMAL people should have the right to bear arms. Mental cases, anger management candidates, the careless and others like them are better off not having guns at all.
Given the number of armed idiots out there now, 1 out of 10 will probably o mess up and kill someone because he or she "thought" the other person had a gun. People with guns who are mentally unstable are not only a danger to themselves but to others around them. Having said that, I think all NORMAL people should have the right to bear arms. Mental cases, anger management candidates, the careless and others like them are better off not having guns at all.
@Rem - When I got my CCW the instructor told us a story of how one night a guy woke up to some noise in the middle of the night. He was supposed to be alone in the house (no wife or kids this night) so he grabbed his gun and went to investigate. He saw someone in the kitchen and fired. Turned out to be his teenage daughter. She had decided to come back home for the night instead of staying at a friends house. Luckily she lived.
I decided right then and there that I would never pull the trigger until there was no doubt in my mind if the threat was real. Even if that meant me getting shot in a moment of hesitation.
Other people have made different decisions and that's fine. I think the most important thing is that people think about it before hand and decide when they would be willing to pull the trigger.
A comment on the "heated argument" scenario...
Personally, I've found that I keep my temper in check much easier when I have my gun then when I don't (not to imply that I have a bad temper to begin with. :-) ). The reason being I know what a huge responsibility carrying a gun entails and the deadly consequences of its misuse. Getting upset over someone cutting me off in traffic or flipping me the bird is not worth losing my freedom.
A lot of other gun owners I've talked to feel the same way.
I decided right then and there that I would never pull the trigger until there was no doubt in my mind if the threat was real. Even if that meant me getting shot in a moment of hesitation.
Other people have made different decisions and that's fine. I think the most important thing is that people think about it before hand and decide when they would be willing to pull the trigger.
A comment on the "heated argument" scenario...
Personally, I've found that I keep my temper in check much easier when I have my gun then when I don't (not to imply that I have a bad temper to begin with. :-) ). The reason being I know what a huge responsibility carrying a gun entails and the deadly consequences of its misuse. Getting upset over someone cutting me off in traffic or flipping me the bird is not worth losing my freedom.
A lot of other gun owners I've talked to feel the same way.
where a permit holder foiled a crime by shooting someone". You need to get out more. Try picking up an NRA magazine. You'll find a section where people describe instances where their use of a firearm prevented a criminal from causing life threatening harm to the gun carrier or others. These situations do exist. Its just that our celebrity influenced liberal media doesn't want the public to hear about these instances.
Frankly, I don't care. It takes about the same time to cycle the slide as it takes to thumb the safety. My CZ is LEGALLY unloaded, but ready to fire within a fraction of a second anyway.
I am in idaho work as a bouncer I have only had to draw my firearm once and did not need to use it just seeing it put them back in the car.I have two daughters living in slc when I go there I am armed.For Kyle The police are the clean up crew they cant be every were at once.If I had been at trolly square that day I would have ran not walked to try and shut down the attacker.Both of my daughters know how to shoot from a young age. Remember Someday it might be my gun that saves your life also if a bad guy thinks I might be armed he is going to think about the risk.
as long as people take it responsibly. I have my CWP and I recommend everyone take the class. Even take a hunters safety class. It teaches individuals how to handle firearms safely and be responsible and not ruin our rights and privelages by being careless with them. There will always be morons out there who should never handle a gun. Lock them up and keep them safe from kids. Put them in a holster that is good quality. CONCEAL them. Don't just throw it under your seat or leave it laying around the house.
On a funnier side, did anyone else notice that it was bill "357"? Did they do this on purpose?
On a funnier side, did anyone else notice that it was bill "357"? Did they do this on purpose?
as long as people take it responsibly. I have my CWP and I recommend everyone take the class. Even take a hunters safety class. It teaches individuals how to handle firearms safely and be responsible and not ruin our rights and privelages by being careless with them. There will always be morons out there who should never handle a gun. Lock them up and keep them safe from kids. Put them in a holster that is good quality. CONCEAL them. Don't just throw it under your seat or leave it laying around the house.
On a funnier side, did anyone else notice that it was bill "357"? Did they do this on purpose?
On a funnier side, did anyone else notice that it was bill "357"? Did they do this on purpose?
theirself with a firearm, you've encountered the media bias against guns. If there is a local story about an accidental injury with a gun you'll hear about it on national news. If a gun is used to prevent a crime it MIGHT make the local news. It won't make the national news. If it occurs in a national news setting, the use of a firearm for defense will be glossed over or omitted in most cases.
Some of the posts have talked about not having a need for a gun. Need has nothing to do with it. It is a right. That right should be defended as vigorously as any other. It's the right upon which all the others rest.
The problem with too many politicians is that they don't trust their electorate. They know best for the rest of us. Too many of you on this forum have the same problem. You are not the only ones who are trustworthy. Most people are. That's what makes this system work. More common people packing equals less crime. You exagerate the problems and minimize the benefits. You would be better off to be aware of the possible problems and be grateful for the extra security an armed citizenry affords.
Some of the posts have talked about not having a need for a gun. Need has nothing to do with it. It is a right. That right should be defended as vigorously as any other. It's the right upon which all the others rest.
The problem with too many politicians is that they don't trust their electorate. They know best for the rest of us. Too many of you on this forum have the same problem. You are not the only ones who are trustworthy. Most people are. That's what makes this system work. More common people packing equals less crime. You exagerate the problems and minimize the benefits. You would be better off to be aware of the possible problems and be grateful for the extra security an armed citizenry affords.
If you shoot someone defending someone else it is not murder it is called castle doctern read up on it.
The post at http://rumandmonkey.com/discuss/viewtopic.php?p=817173&sid=f67f3aa4e0af3a4cd4415aabe46373cb (which references "Gun Myths and Realities" at http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=4706) makes some telling points about gun control, including:
States with more permissive gun carry laws have lower violent crime, murder and rates.
Gun ownership and murder/suicide rates have been shown to not be correlated.
Statistics about gun accidents involving children only look scary when "children" are defined as anyone up to age 20.
The rates of assaults and rapes are far higher in Canada, where gun laws are very restrictive, than in the U.S.
States with more permissive gun carry laws have lower violent crime, murder and rates.
Gun ownership and murder/suicide rates have been shown to not be correlated.
Statistics about gun accidents involving children only look scary when "children" are defined as anyone up to age 20.
The rates of assaults and rapes are far higher in Canada, where gun laws are very restrictive, than in the U.S.
@Laura L. - Is this Laura Lang, the person that runs around with superman?
I love your comment, and your common since.
I love your comment, and your common since.
@Laura L. - Is this Laura Lang, the person that runs around with superman?
I love your comment, and your common since.
I love your comment, and your common since.
the days when I was a young, follow the crowd liberal activist, then within the span of 2 years, 3 good friends of mine, who were not provoking anyone, died via homicide. All you people who think that we should not be able to carry firearms are ignorant. You base your argument off some kind of whimsical dream that no one is attacked. I work as a paramedic in one of the large cities in SL valley and we are CONSTANTLY responding to home invasions where people are assaulted. There is violence everywhere in and out of the home and it is our right to protect ourselves. Unfortunatley there are gun wielding lunatics who are looking for an opportunity to shoot someone, but that does not mean our rights should be taken away.
So if I understand this right, a gang banger gets pulled over for not signaling and a loaded weapon is found in his car. As long as he doesn't have a criminal record, they only give him a ticket for not signaling. This seems very wrong to me. The number one way we get guns out of 'bad' peoples hands is because of there tenancy to carry them around illegally. Now we will let anyone have a loaded weapon in their car? I think road rage is about to get a lot more bloody.
@chino-bo dino - If he is a gang banger he most likely has a record. therefore not allowed to carry a firearm.
So if I understand this right, a gang banger gets pulled over for not signaling and a loaded weapon is found in his car. As long as he doesn't have a criminal record, they only give him a ticket for not signaling. This seems very wrong to me. The number one way we get guns out of 'bad' peoples hands is because of there tenancy to carry them around illegally. Now we will let anyone have a loaded weapon in their car? I think road rage is about to get a lot more bloody.
i have had a permit before, i decide to move out of the areas i felt i would need to use a gun. i still am carefull were i go at night, but last year i was working in midvale @ a apartment house 2 block from the p.d. station when one of my guys got jumped, but there were 7 of us with tools. there little knives didn't stand a chance with men and shovels. the cops took them away they must have made a deal we never when to court!
Why get a permit when the crinminal and gang banger don't need one?????? these cuttingedge law maker sure earn their money making useless law for the criminals
@witchdoctor - It's a way to bust criminals for carrying around loaded guns. Now, they will have to let them go on their way.
So if I understand this right, a gang banger gets pulled over for not signaling and a loaded weapon is found in his car. As long as he doesn't have a criminal record, they only give him a ticket for not signaling. This seems very wrong to me. The number one way we get guns out of 'bad' peoples hands is because of there tenancy to carry them around illegally. Now we will let anyone have a loaded weapon in their car? I think road rage is about to get a lot more bloody.
For us police officers our traffic stops are going to be a lot more tense, we are going to have to deal with a lot more vehicle burglaries due to criminals stealing guns out of the cars that they know people are carrying them in. That is going to give the real criminals more weapons to go commit crimes that will not take place in your car or in your home.
Be prepared for this to back fire in the face of everyone and lots of innocent people are going to get killed over this or have their guns stolen from their cars which will be used in other crimes that will kill someone.
I for one and very scared of how this is going to turn out.
You pull over 4 gang bangers in a car all with felonies. They will have one other person with them that has no criminal history and they can say oh yeah the gun is his so we can legally carry it in the car. You have to let them go and next thing you know a robbery occurs or a drive-by shooting happens with the description of the car you stopped earlier.
I am a strong supporter of the 2nd Amendment but this bill is going to backfire. Do yourself a favor and get a CCW and carry on your hip at all times. Don't let this law pass.
Be prepared for this to back fire in the face of everyone and lots of innocent people are going to get killed over this or have their guns stolen from their cars which will be used in other crimes that will kill someone.
I for one and very scared of how this is going to turn out.
You pull over 4 gang bangers in a car all with felonies. They will have one other person with them that has no criminal history and they can say oh yeah the gun is his so we can legally carry it in the car. You have to let them go and next thing you know a robbery occurs or a drive-by shooting happens with the description of the car you stopped earlier.
I am a strong supporter of the 2nd Amendment but this bill is going to backfire. Do yourself a favor and get a CCW and carry on your hip at all times. Don't let this law pass.
@bmizar - the good thing about it it will make it easier for the redneck hunters to shoot there deer out the car window or at the road signs.
the gangbangers are going to carry a loaded gun law or no law so why cant a we. we have the right to protect ourselfs. join the NRA and help fight for our rights . by the way me first assault rifle I bought was from a cop that needed cash fast I payed 50.00 bucks and it came loaded so you guys are know angels. KEEP PACKIN
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KSL's public inspection files, including the Children's Television Programming Reports and the DTV Quarterly Activity Station Report, are available for viewing during regular office hours at the KSL Broadcast House.
8:38pm - Thu Mar 05th, 2009
8:48pm - Thu Mar 05th, 2009
8:52pm - Thu Mar 05th, 2009
9:03pm - Thu Mar 05th, 2009
9:09pm - Thu Mar 05th, 2009
9:21pm - Thu Mar 05th, 2009
9:55pm - Thu Mar 05th, 2009
4:43am - Fri Mar 06th, 2009
So I can see why you don't understand the difference between a weapon like that and a handgun.
Here's a big "DUH" for you, even if you were being sarcastic.
Sk8boy
6:46am - Fri Mar 06th, 2009
I'd have to go back and read the article, but I was pretty sure it was about guns.
10:46pm - Thu Mar 05th, 2009
Ammendments are guarenteed by the Federal Government
The State is in Violation of the Law
Fedearl Criminals
3:43pm - Fri Mar 06th, 2009
You can have a loaded weapon in your home.
You can carry an unloaded (round not in chamber) gun in your car. As long as it is in a case (locked or unlocked).
http://utahshootingsports.com/utahlaws.htm#76-10-504
9:55pm - Thu Mar 05th, 2009
How are you supposed to use a gun in self defense if you have to fumble around to find the key?
11:57pm - Thu Mar 05th, 2009
5:02am - Fri Mar 06th, 2009
I personally like to use my wifes old pantyhose for a case. I'm not embarrassed to have it on my dash board.
9:28pm - Thu Mar 05th, 2009
9:56pm - Thu Mar 05th, 2009
10:12pm - Thu Mar 05th, 2009
10:13pm - Thu Mar 05th, 2009
10:18pm - Thu Mar 05th, 2009
What is so hard about getting a permit? All it means is you have a clean record and have some understanding of gun laws. Why does that scare you?
You can still buy your gun from someone in the classified ads and the government will never know about it.
10:36pm - Thu Mar 05th, 2009
10:43pm - Thu Mar 05th, 2009
7:04am - Fri Mar 06th, 2009
1:43am - Fri Mar 06th, 2009
i carry all the time . i dont have a shell in the chamber and u dont carry in a ste,local federl building including a bank. and u can find out the list in google. i know lds dosent allow you to carry on there properties. u can google the laws on line. just be smart about it and not a rebel. i was pulled over last yr and i told the officer rite away i was carrying and i took it out and he unloaded it and then let me go. simple as that.
he said i was legal. u can get those colord plastic fake shells with a tb for your pistol that shows it isnt loaded.
cabellas or sportsmans wearhouse has them.
4:54am - Fri Mar 06th, 2009
I swear, instead of thinking you know what's being said, read and make sure. DUH on you again.
Sk8boy
8:19am - Fri Mar 06th, 2009
9:11am - Fri Mar 06th, 2009
9:12am - Fri Mar 06th, 2009
7:45am - Fri Mar 06th, 2009
10:10am - Fri Mar 06th, 2009
11:10am - Fri Mar 06th, 2009
12:12pm - Fri Mar 06th, 2009
4:37pm - Fri Mar 06th, 2009
YES!!!
BurrowStone I could not disagree with you more. There all kinds of examples of entire communities having mandatory gun ownership laws where crime has been reduced to near 0% in those communities. In your strange world view how can you think that restricting gun rights to law abiding citizens will reduce gun crime? Do you think that somehow by taking gun rights away from average people that you will reduce criminals obtaining guns by illegal means? it will never happen.
Chew on this...
A LITTLE GUN HISTORY :
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
In 1938, Germany established gun control. From 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated
In 1935, China established gun control. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated
In 1964, Guatemala established gun control. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
In 1970, Uganda established gun control. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
In 1956, Cambodia established gun control. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated' people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
It has now been a few since gun owners in Australia were forced by new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own Government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars.
The first year results are now in:
List of 7 items:
Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent
Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent
Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!
In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns!
While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.
There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the ELDERLY. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort, and expense was expended in successfully ridding Australian society of guns The Australian experience and the other historical facts above prove it.