Boy Scout Council in Salt Lake facing budget shortfall
The Boy Scout council in Salt Lake came up short in its budget but says it will make the cuts it has to, to weather the economic storm. Professional Scouts blame the economy, but they also say they'll scrutinize their expenses. November 12th, 2008 @ 10:08pm
By Marc Giauque and Jed Boal
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EVERYBODY this year remembered, not only Mr. Moore's salary, but his pompus attitude towards justifing it. I went door-to-door and 7 of 10 people said the same thing and refused to donate THIS year (they did in the past).
Thanks to Mr. Moore and to those who payed you TOO MUCH.
YOU are the ones who hurt scouting. Those people will find away to get their money to people who will REALLY use it.
Thanks to Mr. Moore and to those who payed you TOO MUCH.
YOU are the ones who hurt scouting. Those people will find away to get their money to people who will REALLY use it.
@Hog65 - I understand that we do need people who are paid in order to make the program work- They don't have volunteers that can take that much time to make sure that the program runs-
The sad thing is the camps and other activities make so much money but it didn't seem to come back to help the kids. They have had great programs for the cub scouts in Mill creek canyon and their cost is now still going up- why? Where are the improvement? They are making money! Where does it all go? I'm sure it doesn't all go to Mr. Moore- What about other leaders like Luna- Godwin?
It is our youth that suffer because of their lack to running a good budget! I believe it is time for the LDS Church to make their own program that would teach the boys the true values which scouting has seemed to have lost!
The sad thing is the camps and other activities make so much money but it didn't seem to come back to help the kids. They have had great programs for the cub scouts in Mill creek canyon and their cost is now still going up- why? Where are the improvement? They are making money! Where does it all go? I'm sure it doesn't all go to Mr. Moore- What about other leaders like Luna- Godwin?
It is our youth that suffer because of their lack to running a good budget! I believe it is time for the LDS Church to make their own program that would teach the boys the true values which scouting has seemed to have lost!
I hope they stick to their standards as the LDS church is doing.
@Sambecks C. - The LDS church ought to dump scouting as "the official activity arm of the young men's organization" and go it on their own.
I can't, in good conscience, knock on my neighbors' doors and ask for contributions to the BSA while their executive is making 5 times what he ought to be making.
I'll still hit them up for troop money, but not for the district, council, etc.
amen
I can't, in good conscience, knock on my neighbors' doors and ask for contributions to the BSA while their executive is making 5 times what he ought to be making.
I'll still hit them up for troop money, but not for the district, council, etc.
amen
@RicardoMontalban - I am the Scoutmaster in my ward...I wouldn't say we need to exactly 'dump' scouting as the official arm of the Young Men's organization.
However, I totally understand what you are talking about when you write, "I can't, in good conscience, knock on my neighbors' doors and ask for contributions to the BSA while their executive is making 5 times what he ought to be making.
I'll still hit them up for troop money, but not for the district, council, etc."
It's very frustrating when you work so hard for the boys to have a good program and then you read this kind of stuff in the news. I personally wish we could get rid of the Friends of Scouting Program. That's probably harsh but that's my opinion. That money doesn't go to my local troop...it goes to the national organization.
However, I totally understand what you are talking about when you write, "I can't, in good conscience, knock on my neighbors' doors and ask for contributions to the BSA while their executive is making 5 times what he ought to be making.
I'll still hit them up for troop money, but not for the district, council, etc."
It's very frustrating when you work so hard for the boys to have a good program and then you read this kind of stuff in the news. I personally wish we could get rid of the Friends of Scouting Program. That's probably harsh but that's my opinion. That money doesn't go to my local troop...it goes to the national organization.
@RicardoMontalban - When I was in scouts, my troop was not associated with any church. I did however go to some meetings with my friend at his church based troop, and there definately was a differnence. Being non-LDS in Utah, if I can't find a Troop in my area that is not based out of a church, I'm not going to put my son into it, and I'm even less likely to cut your kid a check.
@Karl - Many Service organizations sponsor troops, as do many other churches.
Good luck in your search.
Peace, out.
Good luck in your search.
Peace, out.
@Karl - Karl you may not realize but in utah the lds chucrh is what helps the program if the bsa dropped the church then its numbers for partipants would drop dramaticly.
If you want to avoid a chuch sponsered group you would need to look into non-denomital sponser scout groups.
If you want to avoid a chuch sponsered group you would need to look into non-denomital sponser scout groups.
@Mr. d - ...and the LDS Church should be involved with them. However, they do seem to have hijacked the organization here in Utah. And if participant numbers dropped for being an independent organization, then that proves my point.
I'll look further into it because I did enjoy my time in Scouts and learned some great lessons.
I'll look further into it because I did enjoy my time in Scouts and learned some great lessons.
@Karl - Karl, Remember that the first duty of a scout is "to do (his) duty to God". That's why a new program has been introduced by BSA called "The Heart of Scouting, Putting the first duty fitst!" When asked why religion should be a part of scouting, Robert Baden-Powell (the founder of BSA) said, "(religion) is already inside. It is alreday the fundamental factor pervading Scouting and Guiding." The BSA felt that too many other aspects of scouting had become higher on the priority list and they want to return to the fundaments. They explain in the pamphlet, "The Heart of Scouting program will increase spirituality in all aspects of Scouting by helping the first ideal in the Scout Oath become the heart of scouting." I don't see how you can achieve this without including religion. An organized religion makes this even more attainable.
@Karl - the Salt Lake BSA would almost die - no church money and they would have to shrink greatly - there'd be way less scouts but at least they might be real scouts (not mamma's boy's "less than real" eagle scouts)
it would be a great shock to the Salt Lake BSA but a good one -
when someone outside "LDS" scouting tells me they have an eagle - I'm impress - when it's an LDS kid - I say so what - it means nothing since there is so much pressure to get the "eagle" regards of how -
I'm LDS - but believe both the LDS church and the Scouts would be better off if their strong tie was cut (church funds and scouts)
it would be a great shock to the Salt Lake BSA but a good one -
when someone outside "LDS" scouting tells me they have an eagle - I'm impress - when it's an LDS kid - I say so what - it means nothing since there is so much pressure to get the "eagle" regards of how -
I'm LDS - but believe both the LDS church and the Scouts would be better off if their strong tie was cut (church funds and scouts)
@Karl - Just call the council and ask about Community Scout Units. There is a great one in Davis County, Troop 220, sponsered by the Elk's club. I know many of the leaders and they are a "Follow Me Boys" troop.
Each year they hold a spagetti dinner to raise money and all the community comes out regardless of religious affilation. They usally hold it at the local Catholic Church.
Each year they hold a spagetti dinner to raise money and all the community comes out regardless of religious affilation. They usally hold it at the local Catholic Church.
@RicardoMontalban - As a good eagle scout I learned about ethics and serving in the community. After many years of learning what the boy scouts were really about after earning the award, I can't in good conscience donate to them anymore. The Boy scouts are supported by the LDS Church to the point that they would go bankrupt without them. Just watch your stake or ward suck up your "troop" money to hand it over to the district. Any smart troop leader would get a separate bank account that was not tied to the church leadership.
@Tadhlt - Wasn't Ted Bundy an Eagle Scout? Now days it is to easy to get that title... you can practically buy it in the right troop. it isn't what it was. the Church should just go it on there own.
@Balute - sorry. He was a sexual psychopath, which IS a bit different than being an Eagle Scout. Nor was he LDS, or any of the other popular urban myths.
@Otherjonathon L. - a Republican.
In 1968, he managed the Seattle office of Nelson Rockefeller's Presidential campaign and attended the 1968 Republican convention in Miami as a Rockefeller supporter.
(Not that this has anything to do with him being a serial killer.)
In 1968, he managed the Seattle office of Nelson Rockefeller's Presidential campaign and attended the 1968 Republican convention in Miami as a Rockefeller supporter.
(Not that this has anything to do with him being a serial killer.)
@RicardoMontalban - As a father of 3 Mormon girls it has really bugged me how the boys get preferential treatment and activities with the justification of "Oh that is the Boy Scouts not the church"! Pathetic!
@RicardoMontalban - So the CEO of company only deserves to make $40,000??? That seems a not well thought through comment. If you ask for direct donations for a unit you are putting that unit at risk of having their charter pulled as that directly contradicts BSA Policy. I feel sorry for your council, because the one I'm affiliated with is the complete opposite. Our FOS campaign funds the program and is growing each and every year as well as our youth involved in program. The Paid Professionals may not be completely to blame--have you examined the Council Executive Board...Ours in responsible for all Raises and salaries.
I speak for everyone when I say the Tribune's story on the salaries "earned" by professional scouters earlier this year is what really hurt them. Since reading that, it has become very easy for me to say "sorry, I'm not a friend of scouting."
That's way too much to be paying the leader of a non-profit organization. I'm sure this will not sit well with those that donate their money and more importantly, their time. Why are they getting no compensation when the boss man is making a boat load??
One thing for sure, the Boy Scouts will probably not get any cash donations from the gay & lesbian community.
One thing for sure, the Boy Scouts will probably not get any cash donations from the gay & lesbian community.
@Ben D. - Donating to the United Way....
I can't remember exactly how much their top guys are making but with their pay, they can afford to donate for me.
I can't remember exactly how much their top guys are making but with their pay, they can afford to donate for me.
@Ben D. - If you think that's a lot, then you would totally FREAK OUT if you knew how much other CEO's & Senior Level Exec's make in the National Level Non-Profit Arena. Wanna guess at the Red Cross CEO? How about IHC, or the National Democrat / Republican Parties? That is not the critical point however... the point is how much of the revenue is re-invested back into the program vs. divided among staff. There are laws that govern the percentages, and while I agree at $214k seems a bit steep it's probably not disproportionate to the entire BSA budget. The crapola thing however, is the visible lack of dispersal at Troop level. For a budget large enough to support a top-end salary like that, it would seem like there should be more $$$ making it to the kids themselves... if that's really what it's about.
the councilman Paul Moore shouldn't be paid 250k per year (all from friends of scouting)for a part time job. Google him.
Get more wealthy gay people to donate to the Boy Scouts.
@Billy_Jack - Leave our Boy Scouts alone!
We don't want your money OR your "contributions".
We don't want your money OR your "contributions".
@RicardoMontalban - Big Gay Al was a great scout leader!
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/152662/?tag=Al
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/152662/?tag=Al
@Billy_Jack - A lot of them haven't even been weaned from mommy.
Boy scouts teach correct principles.
Boy scouts teach correct principles.
@Sambecks C. - Make sure you invite me to your "coming of the closet" party. I'm sure it'll be a blast!
@Billy_Jack - get the country to COMPLETELY divide between Gay and Not Gay!! We could build a big wall and never have to deal with each other... perfect! And how about instead of metal detectors in government buildings, we had "Gaydar" detectors, (we'd see how fast those closet-homo Mormon Scout leaders suddenly get kicked out)... in fact, if we just gave in to unabashed, complete discrimination and intolerance this program would be complete!!... um... oh, wait....
when it didn't cost a mint to run a troop?
I think that part of the problem is how much playing the troops do. Boy scouts use to do a lot more work, a lot more service and a lot less playing.
It use to be that the boys didn't go off and play at lagoon for the day, there is still vaule in the Scouting program but I think they should look at having these boys work a little harder, we are raising a generation of WUSS!
I think that part of the problem is how much playing the troops do. Boy scouts use to do a lot more work, a lot more service and a lot less playing.
It use to be that the boys didn't go off and play at lagoon for the day, there is still vaule in the Scouting program but I think they should look at having these boys work a little harder, we are raising a generation of WUSS!
@whynotfamilies - In my experience in LDS scouting, much more money is poured into "Friends of Scouting," rechartering fees, and awards than is spent on supplies and activities.
If we run a program out of our allotted funds from The Church, it is somewhat like feeding 5000. We always find a way, and it requires a miracle every year to pull it off. It is frustrating to see how much money is sent off to the BSA while the boys do without.
Could someone tell me how a scout's experience would change if the Council was underfunded? Outside of the quality of experience at an established BSA camp, I'm having a hard time seeing the impact.
If we run a program out of our allotted funds from The Church, it is somewhat like feeding 5000. We always find a way, and it requires a miracle every year to pull it off. It is frustrating to see how much money is sent off to the BSA while the boys do without.
Could someone tell me how a scout's experience would change if the Council was underfunded? Outside of the quality of experience at an established BSA camp, I'm having a hard time seeing the impact.
@Retire Early - Camp fees go up....a one dollar merit badge will then go up from $3 to $8...
They'll get it somehow.
They'll get it somehow.
@Hog65 - do not forget to add the fact that merit badge books already went up just because BSA national updated the covers. And other items have gone up becuase the local councils are required to use "Bsa national product rather then useing and controling products and cost on a smaller local scale.
do not forget to factor how much the volunteer leaders pay for and provide without any reimburstments which is why they can "feed 5000"
do not forget to factor how much the volunteer leaders pay for and provide without any reimburstments which is why they can "feed 5000"
@Mr. d - There is no rule stating that the unit can't do fund-raising for the unit. If a leader so chooses to dip in their own pocket that is a decision that person made. They should possibly think about selling popcorn or doing a number of any other fundraisers to take that burden off themselves. Also never underestimate asking for companies to donate materials for an event. Lastly if you haven't noticed check on anything you are buying right now...Everything has gone up not just scouting supplies.
@tennnate - there ARE rules for fundraisers.
scout units are suspose to submit a fundraiser request to the BSA to have it approved other then the already BSA sponsered fundraisers.
However every scout unit must have a sponser, and that sponser can set there guideline on if they would allow fundraisers.
in the LDS chucrh, they allow i fundraiser a year not counting the scout-o-rama ticket sales.
However again some stakes and wards within the LDS church can and have restrick fundraisers with in thier stake/wards.
scout units are suspose to submit a fundraiser request to the BSA to have it approved other then the already BSA sponsered fundraisers.
However every scout unit must have a sponser, and that sponser can set there guideline on if they would allow fundraisers.
in the LDS chucrh, they allow i fundraiser a year not counting the scout-o-rama ticket sales.
However again some stakes and wards within the LDS church can and have restrick fundraisers with in thier stake/wards.
get the lds chruch to step in. they getting into everyones business and give their 2 cents worth.
get the lds chruch to step in. they getting into everyones business and give their maoney out.
In the Orange County Council, where I "volunteered" for many years(more than 20), that Chief Executive was making OVER $600,000.00 per year.
The quality of most physical facilities of Scout camps have tanked, the food is terrible and the "qualty" of merit badge an skill sets learned or taught to the Scouts at most scout camps is terrible.
I've been to dozens of Scout Camps owned and operated by various Councils natinonwide, and this seems to be the standard rather than the exception.
I find that the "professionals" and full time Scout Office employees are less than helpful, unless you are dangling a large donation in front of them or you are a heavy hitter fundraiser for them.
I loved my Boy Scout experience as a young man, but I'm NOT impressed with how far(low) the Salt Lake and Trapper Trails Councils have sunk in service, and in program offerings, after"volunteering" more than a few years here in Utah.
I made a very tough decision to NOT ever again support "Friends of Scouting" but we do give generously to local units, and will continue to do so, both in kind and in money.
I am all for the Scouts paying their professionals an appropriate wage, but NOT on the backs of the boys themselves.(which is how it is now happening)
We NEED to demand a tough and minute accounting from the BSA Councils for the dollars they receive, failure to do so, allows situations to fester like we've seen in many school districts and associations.
The quality of most physical facilities of Scout camps have tanked, the food is terrible and the "qualty" of merit badge an skill sets learned or taught to the Scouts at most scout camps is terrible.
I've been to dozens of Scout Camps owned and operated by various Councils natinonwide, and this seems to be the standard rather than the exception.
I find that the "professionals" and full time Scout Office employees are less than helpful, unless you are dangling a large donation in front of them or you are a heavy hitter fundraiser for them.
I loved my Boy Scout experience as a young man, but I'm NOT impressed with how far(low) the Salt Lake and Trapper Trails Councils have sunk in service, and in program offerings, after"volunteering" more than a few years here in Utah.
I made a very tough decision to NOT ever again support "Friends of Scouting" but we do give generously to local units, and will continue to do so, both in kind and in money.
I am all for the Scouts paying their professionals an appropriate wage, but NOT on the backs of the boys themselves.(which is how it is now happening)
We NEED to demand a tough and minute accounting from the BSA Councils for the dollars they receive, failure to do so, allows situations to fester like we've seen in many school districts and associations.
@Otherjonathon L. - As a scoutmaster who just finished collecting for Friends of Scouting I have seen and understand the reluctance to contribute when one sees how much the top dogs make. I personally think that those huge salaries do not encourage others who are struggling to survive in this economy to make donations.
However; I'm just curious what would the appropriate salary be for the President of the scouting program? So many people say "that's way too much". I don't hear people complaining about their favorite athletes, singers, musicians who make much more than that. I understand that it is a non profit organization, but the Scouting program and the principles it teaches to young men benefit society much more than Hollywood, sports, and other organizations we gladly support generously as a society. Just a thought.
However; I'm just curious what would the appropriate salary be for the President of the scouting program? So many people say "that's way too much". I don't hear people complaining about their favorite athletes, singers, musicians who make much more than that. I understand that it is a non profit organization, but the Scouting program and the principles it teaches to young men benefit society much more than Hollywood, sports, and other organizations we gladly support generously as a society. Just a thought.
@Chaka - It's amazing how reluctant people are to contribute. I have to admit that it sounds like alot of money, because it is. However, people don't realize the kind of work that they do, and the coordination with the government agencies to secure permits, properties, and other programs. A program like the Boy Scouts can not be run without monies. If people don't donate on the FOS level where will the money come from to build and maintain the scout camps. I wish I could crap enough money to buy many acres of mountain wilderness. You can't run an organization without someone getting "too much of something or another". I have to wonder if the director made a good contribution to FOS?
spent all the money on the yes on prop 8 campaign.
@Libertine - the audience is here! Personally, I totally agree with you! These M#*$&n nuts cry about misappropriated boy-scout funds, but jump for joy knowing that a portion of their 10% is going to fund a hate campaign in another state. Absolutely sickening!
@username - I love it when other people prove my point!
@username - The only point you are proving is how stupid and angry your are.
Do you two really believe that church tithing funds were used to support Prop 8? And you want to call it a "hate campaign"!?
For one thing, those ideas are both completely incorrect and ridiculous, and another thing, it has nothing to do with the topic of this particular story.
Do you two really believe that church tithing funds were used to support Prop 8? And you want to call it a "hate campaign"!?
For one thing, those ideas are both completely incorrect and ridiculous, and another thing, it has nothing to do with the topic of this particular story.
I really dont remember the troop needing much money...everyone involved was a volunteer....sounds like there should be a "audit" of where the money has been going...other than the obvious fat cats at the top...
@BEARINGNUT - We don't all live in Mabury
@Balute - Or even Mayberry
@Aggiefan - we grew up in a coal camp and nobody had money...people made it all work with volunteerism. If that did not happen there would not have been a scout troop...granted this was 40 years ago and most of the kids now days are [removed] and depend on someone else for every thing they need...well maybe this new economy will bring back the good old days of everyone being broke!!!
@BEARINGNUT - I don't know why you would reference your rear on here. What you do behind closed doors is your deal. Also I am sure since you are a coal miner’s daughter in drag that it was up hill both ways to and from school. Was Laura Engels your teacher? I am just a silver spoon, want it on a silver platter you can do it for me kind of guy. If you have and know so much volunteer and teach us so called free loaders. Let me know when class is. Just an FYI I'll need a ride.
@BEARINGNUT - when boys are scouts they usally do not see the costs behind what they do. there is no BSA wal-mart there are things you have to get/do through the BSA and it ads up quick. You should look into cost for scout camps (not just the summer camp) and you would find it adds up and the troops usally pay for most thing just to go on an over night camp.
I was glad to see the Salary mentioned for the previous SL council guy. Wanton stupid decisions at all levels got our economy into the current mess. Nice to see the Boy Scouts are as dumb as any other business.
boy scouts are a waste of time in my opinion. these kids should be more involved in sports, music, or playing with their friends. scouting is not something that has a long lasting, permanent impact on the life of a young boy. good riddance to an obsolete program.
@Brickhouse - Your smart!!!! Just Kidding---ask an Eagle Scout how much of an impact that is--Scholarship money, leadership skills, friends, etc.
Wow, here I am paying 50 bucks a year to the scouts because I am told that is what a good Jack-Mormon does. My Ward leaders tell me its funds well spent. Mislead once again!
What does the Executive's do? They sit around and do nothing while the volunteer leaders do all the work for them. If all they do is print out parent signature sheets, merit bagde books, awards and the sorts, that would be a cake job for $214,000.00 a year.
I called them the other day because I needed some information on my son. Theguy I talked to in advancement told me that I would have to come up there which is across town for me to get it and he would not walk over to the filing cabinet and give it to me over the phone. I gave to friends to scouting but they need to learn what friend means.
BSA was not started by the LDS church, there are a lot of scout troops out their that Don't have anything to do with the LDS church.
The LDS church does have troops in the program though, and if you believe at all in teaching and guiding our boys to be kind, prepared and hardworking you wouldn't make fun of a group like the church that's trying to do just that.
Get over your anger and address the issue, the BSA not the LDS.
The LDS church does have troops in the program though, and if you believe at all in teaching and guiding our boys to be kind, prepared and hardworking you wouldn't make fun of a group like the church that's trying to do just that.
Get over your anger and address the issue, the BSA not the LDS.
are not what they profess to be. Most pay enormous salaries to the executives. It is a buisness just like any other and should be taxed like a normal buisness. I for one am fed up with organizations that pretend to do good but in reality are profiting off others donations.
@David L. - Dude, my most favorite memories are with bsa. It is a great program and it's a big one at that. They can't expect people to volunteer year round and even if they did get a few to do it, it would take too much of there time to work all the programs out. There is so much more that happens outside of summer camps that you can't believe. BE PROACTIVE, NOT REACTIVE!!!
Some of your comments are most welcome, while others are very hurtful. I have worked for the BSA for almost 3 years now. I work 55+ hours a week, and it is work, not fun, most of the time. I started at $34,300, barely enough to feed, clothe, and shelter my family. I now make $37,000, after three years of service. Not all of us make a fortune like some "top" executives. I hope you can realize that most of them did, in fact, earn those salaries after years of working many hours a week away from their families striving to help others and getting very little recognition, and in some cases ridicule, for it. Yes, your sons can join sporting events and you can cheer them on from the sidelines, OR you can join scouting and work side by side WITH them. We do our best to serve, there are bad apples in every organization, please be kind to those of us who are really trying to help your sons and families.
I worked for one of the local councils for roughly 2 years. I worked in a variety of positions through out the office. So here goes.
1- A new district executive makes roughly the same as a public school teacher (about $30K a year.)Not exactly a "luxury" wage.
2- Every time any of you have visited a scout office - was the air/heat on? Light? Water? All of these things cost money.
3- I myself was a support staff member - I made $6.75 an hour and had health insurance. Again, not exactly a lot for a 40+ hour a week job.
4- At the council I worked at, if we needed to build or renovate a building at a camp, we never moved forward until we had secured all of the funds.
5- I worked with Friends of Scouting for a while. I saw the budgets for the FOS monies. The employment budget was a small portion of the total. F
6- Some have commented on volunteers being involved to the top level. The executive board of a council is made of ALL volunteers. The Council President is a volunteer. They oversee and approve all raises, all budgets, all expenditures. The scout executive reports to the Council President. Together they are responsible for the comings and goings of the council.
The Boy Scouts of America taught me as I grew up to have values, always learn, and to be a positive influence in my community. I may be a bit weird, but those are the things that our youth need now. My parents both have dedicated nearly 30 years to the cause. Look at President Monson. He gives tremendous credit to the Scouting movement for the person he is now. He himself has donated many years to promoting the cause (in so much he holds the highest international Scouting award.) Abolishing Scouting would be a very unwise move. I admit from the top that LDS Scouting has strayed in many a ward. But Scouting as a whole is worth it. It's been here for nearly 100 years now, and I look forward to the next 100.
Sincerely,
A Dedicated Scouter
1- A new district executive makes roughly the same as a public school teacher (about $30K a year.)Not exactly a "luxury" wage.
2- Every time any of you have visited a scout office - was the air/heat on? Light? Water? All of these things cost money.
3- I myself was a support staff member - I made $6.75 an hour and had health insurance. Again, not exactly a lot for a 40+ hour a week job.
4- At the council I worked at, if we needed to build or renovate a building at a camp, we never moved forward until we had secured all of the funds.
5- I worked with Friends of Scouting for a while. I saw the budgets for the FOS monies. The employment budget was a small portion of the total. F
6- Some have commented on volunteers being involved to the top level. The executive board of a council is made of ALL volunteers. The Council President is a volunteer. They oversee and approve all raises, all budgets, all expenditures. The scout executive reports to the Council President. Together they are responsible for the comings and goings of the council.
The Boy Scouts of America taught me as I grew up to have values, always learn, and to be a positive influence in my community. I may be a bit weird, but those are the things that our youth need now. My parents both have dedicated nearly 30 years to the cause. Look at President Monson. He gives tremendous credit to the Scouting movement for the person he is now. He himself has donated many years to promoting the cause (in so much he holds the highest international Scouting award.) Abolishing Scouting would be a very unwise move. I admit from the top that LDS Scouting has strayed in many a ward. But Scouting as a whole is worth it. It's been here for nearly 100 years now, and I look forward to the next 100.
Sincerely,
A Dedicated Scouter
I greatly appreciate your comments.
@Cory C. - As a 20 year member of Girl Scouts of America, I believe that BSA should look to the girls for guidance. The girl scouts don't lose scouts in the Uintas or deface national treaseures and monuments. Girl Scouts in non-denominational and accepts all girls. The same values are taught without the huge problems that the Boy Scouts have faced.
@Wish the crickets won.......... - Girl scouts are fading so fast they are much like the Titanic. No offense I believe in your program but it is run incorrectly and top officials are in talks with the BSA of a possible merger. Girl Scouts are closing doors of councils all over the USA and also shutting down camps. If you don't believe me check the national site and take Camp Hazelwood of Henry Co. Tn where I live. They sold out because they are out of money.
@Wish the crickets won.......... - no offense, but boy scouts and girl scouts may be simular but they are way different.
at what age do the girls tend to dramically stop participating with the girl scouts?
In the BSA there are a lot that go all the way till they are 18+ even if they do not get thier eagle rank.
GSU tends to loose girl particpation by the time the girls become teenagers.
The advantage the Girl Scouts have is they were smart and kept it simple and to the basics where as in the Boy Scouts they have gone way outside of the box to where YES there are issues that arise because not all boys are well behaved and were probably made to go to the activties. where as girls do not get pushed to continue to attend and go with the girl scouts.
at what age do the girls tend to dramically stop participating with the girl scouts?
In the BSA there are a lot that go all the way till they are 18+ even if they do not get thier eagle rank.
GSU tends to loose girl particpation by the time the girls become teenagers.
The advantage the Girl Scouts have is they were smart and kept it simple and to the basics where as in the Boy Scouts they have gone way outside of the box to where YES there are issues that arise because not all boys are well behaved and were probably made to go to the activties. where as girls do not get pushed to continue to attend and go with the girl scouts.
That salary is totally inexuseable! No one in a BSA council should get paid half that much. It will be very hard for me to donate when "Friends of Scouting" come knocking on my door! Take my share from the top executives salaries.
I have served as a Boy Scout volunteer for over 20 years in three different states. I have dozens of friends that are professional scouters. There are a few slackers, but they don't last very long in a very demanding profession.
District executives raise the money, train the volunteers, organize the committees, run the activities and keep things running is Scouting. For all they do their pay in inadequate. None of my Scout executive friends make anywhere near the $60,000 stated in this diologue. Cory C and Toodles are very accuate in their comments.
The attitude that is coming through here from the disgruntled is obvious. You are the same people that think that school teachers all teach because they can't do anything else and hence deserve to be paid poorly. People who work with youth -- coaches, teachers, professional scouters, recreation directors -- have a great impact. A far greater inpact that you lazy, bed-wetting bloggers who have nothing better to do with your time than tear others down. And it really ticks you off when a few of them excel in their craft and make some good money.
I say hooray for the Boy Scouts of America; Professional Scouters and the good and positive people in the world that look for the good in the world rather than tear down.
Get off the computer, get out into the woods and take some boys camping, hiking, fishing, boating,etc. That is if you can pass the criminal background check.
District executives raise the money, train the volunteers, organize the committees, run the activities and keep things running is Scouting. For all they do their pay in inadequate. None of my Scout executive friends make anywhere near the $60,000 stated in this diologue. Cory C and Toodles are very accuate in their comments.
The attitude that is coming through here from the disgruntled is obvious. You are the same people that think that school teachers all teach because they can't do anything else and hence deserve to be paid poorly. People who work with youth -- coaches, teachers, professional scouters, recreation directors -- have a great impact. A far greater inpact that you lazy, bed-wetting bloggers who have nothing better to do with your time than tear others down. And it really ticks you off when a few of them excel in their craft and make some good money.
I say hooray for the Boy Scouts of America; Professional Scouters and the good and positive people in the world that look for the good in the world rather than tear down.
Get off the computer, get out into the woods and take some boys camping, hiking, fishing, boating,etc. That is if you can pass the criminal background check.
@Monkey Tender - have a satelite link-up cuz I know you aren't sitting at your computer at home or at work when you have so much better stuff to do!!!!
Get the lead out of your own "lazy" rear and change your own sheets before you start looking at us!!!
Get the lead out of your own "lazy" rear and change your own sheets before you start looking at us!!!
@Hog65 - It that your best shot?
All you gleaned from my comment was the bed wetting insult?
Feel free to take your time and re-read it for the important content.
As for me I'm signing off. I have a life.
All you gleaned from my comment was the bed wetting insult?
Feel free to take your time and re-read it for the important content.
As for me I'm signing off. I have a life.
@Monkey Tender - to another, hee hee... I think what you said was great (and funny too)! Hopefully there's just enough Haters out there to motivate the rest of us to rise above them and excel, just as you put it! Good job!
@Monkey Tender - How credible is your "important content" when it is laced with "lazy', "bed-wetting", and "criminal background check".
Are you one of those "positive people' that "look for the good in the world rather than tear it down?"
I don;t need to re-read it. I heard you loud and clear the first time. Re-read mine and maybe you'll see the get the beam out of your own eye metephor.
Are you one of those "positive people' that "look for the good in the world rather than tear it down?"
I don;t need to re-read it. I heard you loud and clear the first time. Re-read mine and maybe you'll see the get the beam out of your own eye metephor.
@Monkey Tender - service in and for the Councils I have served, you are over reacting a whole bunch.
I am disgruntled, because I USED to donate a lot of money each year to FOS. Far more than you could imagine. I personally saw the waste of money on bloated administrative salaries for people who really didn't do much of anything at all. I did on a Council volunteer level far more fund raising and raised far more money from MY clients and contacts and friends, than the Council Exec did. Yes, I KNOW how it really is. I've seen far too many really GREAT District Execs that were wasted and burned out from idiot Council "administrators" (professional staff) that were neither professional nor good.
As far as the "background criminal check" that too is a JOKE. It's done on a national level by the lowest bidder, and they DO NOT actually run everyone through an NCIC "check". You need to be more realistic and realize that some of us DO take these kids out in High Adventure activities, and realize that our frustration comes FROM having to deal with a great organization that IS rather poorly run and administered, especially here in Utah. Medicority IS the word here. Your callous disregard for others experience IS rather a typical cultural Utahn response. Your defense is admirable, but NOT needed, the BSA is good in SOME areas, but in the financial area, it IS in pathetic shape due entirely to the National Office's policies and procedures. Perhaps you might not be so blind to what you WANT to see, but SEE what is really there.
I am disgruntled, because I USED to donate a lot of money each year to FOS. Far more than you could imagine. I personally saw the waste of money on bloated administrative salaries for people who really didn't do much of anything at all. I did on a Council volunteer level far more fund raising and raised far more money from MY clients and contacts and friends, than the Council Exec did. Yes, I KNOW how it really is. I've seen far too many really GREAT District Execs that were wasted and burned out from idiot Council "administrators" (professional staff) that were neither professional nor good.
As far as the "background criminal check" that too is a JOKE. It's done on a national level by the lowest bidder, and they DO NOT actually run everyone through an NCIC "check". You need to be more realistic and realize that some of us DO take these kids out in High Adventure activities, and realize that our frustration comes FROM having to deal with a great organization that IS rather poorly run and administered, especially here in Utah. Medicority IS the word here. Your callous disregard for others experience IS rather a typical cultural Utahn response. Your defense is admirable, but NOT needed, the BSA is good in SOME areas, but in the financial area, it IS in pathetic shape due entirely to the National Office's policies and procedures. Perhaps you might not be so blind to what you WANT to see, but SEE what is really there.
My goodness, hate certainly ruins a person’s ability to spell or compose a coherent sentence. It will also apparently compel the weak-minded to accept “facts” from anywhere.
May I suggest that some of you refrain from exhibiting your ignorance in such a conspicuous place? You might thank yourselves later when your rage subsides.
May I suggest that some of you refrain from exhibiting your ignorance in such a conspicuous place? You might thank yourselves later when your rage subsides.
@Kim H. - It's not just the hate, it's the attitude, the disrespect, the "without feeling," the laziness and a long list of other adjectives, all are the opposite of what scouting teaches and their values. Obviously their ignorance, as you said, has earned them their place in society--much below you and I and so many others. These people who condemn is such a vile way need something constructive to do with their lives.
over SCout Councils' spending and squandering of FOS and other funds.
I am no hater of the BSA on a very local(unit and District) level. I've seen the way Orange County Council (CA), Trapper Trails Council(UT) and Salt Lake Council (UT) have spent their monies at trhe lavish Carribean "retreats". All three of those councils eecutive squandered hard-earned DONATED monies for their own lavish "perks" at these insipid "retreats" in places I don't want to afford.
Out of all my years involved in Scouting as a volunteer, and they are more than three decades now, I've seen about FOUR quality District executives. I've not seen even one mediocre Council Executive that was worth what he was being paid.
CE's main job is to raise money for the National Office of the BSA. They are extremely well compensated for what little thay actually do.
Are they even responsive to the needs of individual units? Nope, I've yet to see one that is. Their new hire District Executives usually are decent until they gget burned out with the low wages, and the horrible hours demanded of them.
I cannot in good conscience support financially FOS anymore.
I can and do in very good conscience support financially packs, troops, teams and crews on the local level, both with donations of equipment and funds. No Scout Council will EVER get another dime from me until they are willing to be completely transparent in thier accounting and fund raising, something which most non-profits ARE, but the BSA has chosen at a national level to not do so. Tough noogies for them, they can do without MY money.
I am no hater of the BSA on a very local(unit and District) level. I've seen the way Orange County Council (CA), Trapper Trails Council(UT) and Salt Lake Council (UT) have spent their monies at trhe lavish Carribean "retreats". All three of those councils eecutive squandered hard-earned DONATED monies for their own lavish "perks" at these insipid "retreats" in places I don't want to afford.
Out of all my years involved in Scouting as a volunteer, and they are more than three decades now, I've seen about FOUR quality District executives. I've not seen even one mediocre Council Executive that was worth what he was being paid.
CE's main job is to raise money for the National Office of the BSA. They are extremely well compensated for what little thay actually do.
Are they even responsive to the needs of individual units? Nope, I've yet to see one that is. Their new hire District Executives usually are decent until they gget burned out with the low wages, and the horrible hours demanded of them.
I cannot in good conscience support financially FOS anymore.
I can and do in very good conscience support financially packs, troops, teams and crews on the local level, both with donations of equipment and funds. No Scout Council will EVER get another dime from me until they are willing to be completely transparent in thier accounting and fund raising, something which most non-profits ARE, but the BSA has chosen at a national level to not do so. Tough noogies for them, they can do without MY money.
My grandfather worked for the scouts for most of his life. He worked very hard and worked for the good of the organization. Running the boyscouts isn't just having the fun outings, it includes the camps, events the are for more than one troop, etc. To say that all non-troop people are slugs is just uneducated.
As far as the more than $200,000 salary, it all depends what he's doing. Is he running an organization with more than 100 employees? $60,000 isn't going to get you anyone qualified and the programs and boys will suffer.
Wake up and smell the coffee people.
As far as the more than $200,000 salary, it all depends what he's doing. Is he running an organization with more than 100 employees? $60,000 isn't going to get you anyone qualified and the programs and boys will suffer.
Wake up and smell the coffee people.
Our Stake wanted EACH High Priest to donate at least $100 to FOS. That is from the youngest to the oldest High Priest. Did I donate? Nope.
when their top leader in utah earns more than 200k a year and many of the other lower "leadership" positions bring in over 150k a year a donation is nothing more than a contribution to the management's salary fund.
and the boy scouts are completely prejudice against people who aren't of the christian faith. they even kick young scouts out that realize they are gay. hitler youth anyone?
and the boy scouts are completely prejudice against people who aren't of the christian faith. they even kick young scouts out that realize they are gay. hitler youth anyone?
@idkwhy - That is why it is called BOY scouts. Not flamer scouts. I'm gonna donate 2wice as much now. Scouting is one of the good things left in this country.
@idkwhy - I was always to busy with sports and family activities. But it's a wonderful program and I'll be happy to donate to make up for idkwhy and others like her/him/it.
Those scout execs. have quite the lavish parties,catered events, alcohol flowing like rivers, etc. All compliments of donation money. They also faked the numbers of enrolled scouts to get bigger donations from the LDS church. In my dad's district, they held silent auctions with items donated by local businesses. One of my dad's bosses would take the new items home, and replace them with used items from his house and auction them off like they were new. When my dad talked to the regional managers about the inappropriate/illegal things he saw going on, HE was black listed and ended up quitting. Its sad that such a good organization as the the Boy Scouts has to be associated with the money greedy executives that run their programs.
@Shopaholic - Things have changed as of late then. The council I worked at usually had our meals "catered" by Albertsons or Maceys. Alcohol is strictly forbidden regardless as that is BSA policy. The Executive was an LDS bishop and lived in a moderate home. Nothing too fancy, rather simple in fact. The council also did a council auction. My family's business has donated many a time and each time, our genuine product went to the bidder. Its sad your dad had such a bad experience. But it is more of the exception then the rule.
@Toodles - He worked for 2 councils in 2 different states. At the first council, many of them were having affairs and my dad's first day was spent being counseled on what to tell the wife of the cheating executives if she happend to come by the office. The 2nd council is where the parties had alcohol and the not-so-honest auctions. They both seemed like they were just "good ole boys" clubs.
Sad though, because it makes you bitter towards the scouts when they are not really the problem-just the few executives that make everyone else look bad. You hear about the high morals scouts have and then wonder why some of the executives aren't held to the same standards.
Sad though, because it makes you bitter towards the scouts when they are not really the problem-just the few executives that make everyone else look bad. You hear about the high morals scouts have and then wonder why some of the executives aren't held to the same standards.
It's not that much money people! Paul Moore was the first non-LDS exec to govern the GSLC and he did a great job, got alot done. Google how much the top execs at the Childrens Miracle Network make - staggering amounts of money.
I think the core issue here is a total lack of understanding about the positive impact Scouting has made on this country and in the lives of countless millions of people, in this country and world-wide. A big problem with local Scout programs is they don't take it sereiously enough.
I love the Scouting program and this Country - I have gotten over my brainwashed indoctrination to hate this country while at college - but I did learn to think (a little). Sports is taken way too seriously in this culture - little league is a relatively new phenomenon (Scouts is 100 years old), it teaches some good things but nothing of value compared to Scouting.
I'm not a professional scouter. Peace out.
I think the core issue here is a total lack of understanding about the positive impact Scouting has made on this country and in the lives of countless millions of people, in this country and world-wide. A big problem with local Scout programs is they don't take it sereiously enough.
I love the Scouting program and this Country - I have gotten over my brainwashed indoctrination to hate this country while at college - but I did learn to think (a little). Sports is taken way too seriously in this culture - little league is a relatively new phenomenon (Scouts is 100 years old), it teaches some good things but nothing of value compared to Scouting.
I'm not a professional scouter. Peace out.
@el steve-o - How do you figure? Didn't you know sports rule and scouts drool! There is nothing better that being physically fit working hard as a team and or individual in a sport. If you are a scout you can just go to a scout jamboring and sit and listen to some Yuk for 30 minutes and poof you passed your skill off. I think the scouting program can offer some good but if you think it is all hard work and little Johnny is the best thing since sliced bread because he earned a merit badge you are sorely mistaken! I would take a kid who works hard at a sport and dedicates them selves to it than an eagle scout. The eagles of today are a far cry from those of yesterday. You can learn a great deal from Sports!
@Balute - It's the same way in sports.....It's our NEW culture. It's important to give Johnny a good experience...WHO CARES what he learns from it.
You see kids run over by parents 10 to 1 in little league than you do scouts. I'm no big scout fan, but at least everyone can get an eagle.
I do agree that it's not what it was, but that is cuz' we are afraid to hurt some little fellows feelings and that his mom will file a lawsuit!!!
You see kids run over by parents 10 to 1 in little league than you do scouts. I'm no big scout fan, but at least everyone can get an eagle.
I do agree that it's not what it was, but that is cuz' we are afraid to hurt some little fellows feelings and that his mom will file a lawsuit!!!
Utah Scout Leaders Get Large Pay Packages
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=2142158
Scouts may be thrifty, but some leaders are well paid
Many professional Scouters earn 6-figure salaries across the U.S.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695226688,00.html
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=2142158
Scouts may be thrifty, but some leaders are well paid
Many professional Scouters earn 6-figure salaries across the U.S.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695226688,00.html
I have worked for the Boy Scouts for many years in Cub Scout Camping. It makes my upset to read from so many people about how much they dislike scouting-
Scouting does some wonderful things for the Youth. It teaches them how to be respectful of the world around them, how to be a good citizen- and respect for the flag(which they are not getting anywhere else)- and how to be the leaders of tomorrow.
I never made a lot of money working for the boy scouts and I've donated so much time and my own supply's to help the program go forward.
It has be awesome to help youth change their lives- and have a job I enjoy while being able to support my family and go to school-
I'm one of those who will be laid off because of the suffering economy- I'll be looking for a job where I can reach out and help more people.
I hope the Boy Scouts will recover and still be able to provide a great program for the youth of our great state.
Scouting does some wonderful things for the Youth. It teaches them how to be respectful of the world around them, how to be a good citizen- and respect for the flag(which they are not getting anywhere else)- and how to be the leaders of tomorrow.
I never made a lot of money working for the boy scouts and I've donated so much time and my own supply's to help the program go forward.
It has be awesome to help youth change their lives- and have a job I enjoy while being able to support my family and go to school-
I'm one of those who will be laid off because of the suffering economy- I'll be looking for a job where I can reach out and help more people.
I hope the Boy Scouts will recover and still be able to provide a great program for the youth of our great state.
In my opinion, and in my circumstance, my lack of a donation to the Boy Scouts was not because of financial troubles, but because of the head guy in Washington DC is taking over $1 million per year and the guy in utah was making over $300,000 per year with salary and benefits.
I am willing to give to the boys, but what gets me really mad is being taken advantage of!
Do you all know that the Boy Scouts of America demands that each Stake provide a minimum that must be dontated? And that might be ok to some extent, except that most of that money is not going to the boys. I'm not going to pay somone to line their pockets with one million per year when I thought it was going to the boys. They claim the jobs are hard and the money is ok for what they do. My job is hard and I don't earn that. The garbage mans job is hard and they don't earn that either. What a crock!
I also want to know where the heck all of the money is going which does go to the boys? When I was a boy scout I was required, actually my parents were required to buy my uniforms and pay dues, and buy my books for merit badges, and we had to pay for my trips to wigwam and other camps. What is it exactly that the boys get? In my ward the boys do things to earn money to go to camp and such, so where does the money for the boys get put towards?
The Boy Scouts of America (the leadership) is a bunch of money grubbing gready SOB's, and I won't line their pockets any more.
Sincerly,
NEVER AGAIN
I am willing to give to the boys, but what gets me really mad is being taken advantage of!
Do you all know that the Boy Scouts of America demands that each Stake provide a minimum that must be dontated? And that might be ok to some extent, except that most of that money is not going to the boys. I'm not going to pay somone to line their pockets with one million per year when I thought it was going to the boys. They claim the jobs are hard and the money is ok for what they do. My job is hard and I don't earn that. The garbage mans job is hard and they don't earn that either. What a crock!
I also want to know where the heck all of the money is going which does go to the boys? When I was a boy scout I was required, actually my parents were required to buy my uniforms and pay dues, and buy my books for merit badges, and we had to pay for my trips to wigwam and other camps. What is it exactly that the boys get? In my ward the boys do things to earn money to go to camp and such, so where does the money for the boys get put towards?
The Boy Scouts of America (the leadership) is a bunch of money grubbing gready SOB's, and I won't line their pockets any more.
Sincerly,
NEVER AGAIN
@John H. - If you didn't know, the salary for Mr. Moore was set by an executive committee (which is running the council at this moment). This committee is made up of volunteers so quit complaining about it. Talk to the committee about; they are a bunch of people just like us and they are the ones who set the salaries for the council. If they hadn't given Moore such a huge sum of money each year, we might not be in this situation.
Instead of saying that you will never give to a program that keeps so many young people out of trouble just because a few people aren't thinking about what they are doing, you should try and fix the problem. BE PROACTIVE, NOT REACTIVE!!!
Instead of saying that you will never give to a program that keeps so many young people out of trouble just because a few people aren't thinking about what they are doing, you should try and fix the problem. BE PROACTIVE, NOT REACTIVE!!!
Isn't the Learning for Life program funded by the boy scouts? Would that be cut in the lean, very lean budget? That program affects thousands of children in grades k-6 right here in Utah.
How many of you know how long this executive has worked (as in how many years he has been employed)? Let's do a math exercise... Suppose he started at $30,000 per year. Next, let's assume a 5% pay increase per year. How many years does it take to get to $214,000?? For those that may have a difficult time doing basic math, it is just over 40 years. How many of you would consider a 5% pay increase to be too high? If I had worked for a company for 5 years, and never got a raise higher than 5%, I would leave that company. People see a dollar figure, but do not take into consideration all the other factors that are relevant. Thank you all for your ignorance, inconsideraton, and your impatience. Perhaps you all should go take a few math classes, along with an economics course or two. A logic class would most likely be beneficial for you, as well.
I know several Boy Scout executives that are getting no pay increases this year, even though their insurance premiums have gone up, coverage has gone down, and prices for almost everything you buy have gone up. Tell me, do you honestly think that is fair? I don't. These professionals work hard, and are dedicated to the fundamental ideals of the Boy Scout organization. I challenge you to find someone in any other industry that cares so much about their work that they will work 80 hour weeks, spend months away from their family, and receives minimal pay increases (sometimes not even enough to cover inflation).
Please don't attempt to undermine something you only think you understand.
Then again, that's why our economy is in such bad condition: individuals making decision that don't understand implications of their decisions, whether it's to loan money to someone that really can't afford to pay it back, or the individual that knows they can't afford to pay the loan, but gets it anyway, hoping for something better to come along. I think a few math, economic, and critical thinking courses would benefit the whole nation, even for those that already have degrees... perhaps they could be considered a "refresher" course.
I know several Boy Scout executives that are getting no pay increases this year, even though their insurance premiums have gone up, coverage has gone down, and prices for almost everything you buy have gone up. Tell me, do you honestly think that is fair? I don't. These professionals work hard, and are dedicated to the fundamental ideals of the Boy Scout organization. I challenge you to find someone in any other industry that cares so much about their work that they will work 80 hour weeks, spend months away from their family, and receives minimal pay increases (sometimes not even enough to cover inflation).
Please don't attempt to undermine something you only think you understand.
Then again, that's why our economy is in such bad condition: individuals making decision that don't understand implications of their decisions, whether it's to loan money to someone that really can't afford to pay it back, or the individual that knows they can't afford to pay the loan, but gets it anyway, hoping for something better to come along. I think a few math, economic, and critical thinking courses would benefit the whole nation, even for those that already have degrees... perhaps they could be considered a "refresher" course.
Scouting isn't a business..it is an EXPERIENCE.
I had probably the best scoutmaster in the world. J.N.M. He was a scoutmaster for First Ward. He taught us 1. Scouting ie Living in the wild, fishing, surviving in general, but more important, he taught us how to be MEN. How to earn respect from others, as well as how to respect others. How to preserve the wilderness, as well as being a good citizen..he was a great leader.
We went to scout camps by going in the mountains and picking a spot, and camping. We were a poor troop and could not afford to go to Scout camps, so JNM took us to the wilderness and we learned about God's law,Mans laws, and how to be the best we could be.
I THINK THAT SCOUTING HAS TURNED INTO A BIG BUSINESS, AND I ALSO FEEL SCOUTING NEEDS TO GET BACK TO BASICS.
they need responsible honest leaders, giving from himself and back to teaching these boys because of what he can share with them, not how much $$ is involved. SCOUTING IS A NECESSITY FOR TURNING HONEST BOYS INTO HONEST MEN... something there is fewer and fewer of today. GOD BLESS THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA !!!!!!
I had probably the best scoutmaster in the world. J.N.M. He was a scoutmaster for First Ward. He taught us 1. Scouting ie Living in the wild, fishing, surviving in general, but more important, he taught us how to be MEN. How to earn respect from others, as well as how to respect others. How to preserve the wilderness, as well as being a good citizen..he was a great leader.
We went to scout camps by going in the mountains and picking a spot, and camping. We were a poor troop and could not afford to go to Scout camps, so JNM took us to the wilderness and we learned about God's law,Mans laws, and how to be the best we could be.
I THINK THAT SCOUTING HAS TURNED INTO A BIG BUSINESS, AND I ALSO FEEL SCOUTING NEEDS TO GET BACK TO BASICS.
they need responsible honest leaders, giving from himself and back to teaching these boys because of what he can share with them, not how much $$ is involved. SCOUTING IS A NECESSITY FOR TURNING HONEST BOYS INTO HONEST MEN... something there is fewer and fewer of today. GOD BLESS THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA !!!!!!
@obummer - We must have been in the same troop. We as a troop were taught survival and how to take care of the land. As a troop, most of our gear consisted of WW II
surplus pup tents, packs, mess kits, canteens and mummy bags. We planned our meals on what we could carry. We heated up rocks in the evening wraped them in a piece of burlap, to pre heat the sleeping bag, scouting was tough, but exciting. Each scout was required too have a knife, hatchet and a wet stone a flipper was optional. As a troop, we raised our own money, mowing lawns, shoveling snow, most of this money went to the scoutmaster/assisant for travel funding (gas).
Scouting today? As many adults as scouts with their boats and ATVs, meals prepared at a lodge (chowhall), restroom and shower facalities. Hiking boots consist of tennis shoes or flip flops and the hiking trail is a paved highway.
surplus pup tents, packs, mess kits, canteens and mummy bags. We planned our meals on what we could carry. We heated up rocks in the evening wraped them in a piece of burlap, to pre heat the sleeping bag, scouting was tough, but exciting. Each scout was required too have a knife, hatchet and a wet stone a flipper was optional. As a troop, we raised our own money, mowing lawns, shoveling snow, most of this money went to the scoutmaster/assisant for travel funding (gas).
Scouting today? As many adults as scouts with their boats and ATVs, meals prepared at a lodge (chowhall), restroom and shower facalities. Hiking boots consist of tennis shoes or flip flops and the hiking trail is a paved highway.
I am a teacher and have NEVER received a 5% raise. 5 years ago I maxed out on the pay scale and future raises will be even less. I make 50K. Now I am asked to go door to door as a volunteer. Then, when I am done, I am asked to open my wallet and give cash. This is all so professional scouters can make big bucks. This is shameful for a great organization.
A question comes to mind as I read all of the comments. What percentage of a non-profit's (boy scouts, church, united way, etc.) budget should be allocated to a director's salary?
I have been the proud wife of a professional scouter for 30 years. As previous commentors have noted, starting salary for professional scouters is the mid 30K's. They are required to have a college degree. Family health insurance coverage costs the employee $700+ per month, so you do the math and figure out how much is left over after taxes to take care of the needs of your family. The starting salary is on par with that of school teachers with one major exception. Instead of 3 months off in the summer (and I mean no offense to our hardworking teachers!) your district executive spends 2 months of his summer in camp, usually 100+ miles away from family and is on duty 24/7 to provide your scout with a safe, positive and productive camping experience. The rest of the year he or she is working hard on camp prep, rechartering, FOS campaigns, fundraising, providing support to council activities, advising committees, serving the units in their districts, attending meetings and training volunteers. They are not just hanging around the office (as suggested) in their cool uniforms, which they have to pay for just like anybody else. Many of these activities take place early in the morning or after dinner because that's when it is convienent for the volunteers who have to work too. It makes for some pretty long days! Did I mention they are salaried, so no overtime. Many district executives have had to serve 2 districts (double the meetings) and current district vacancies have been manned by the Field Directors in addition to their management duties. Anyone who seriously thinks that all of these functions can be performed entirely by volunteers and still provide a quality program is dilusional. A word about costs. Registration fees go to support the National office. FOS funds stay with the local council. No one except the Scout Executive makes anywhere near $150,000 per year. Anyone making $50,000 - $60,000 per year has been hard at work for at least 20 years or been promoted to a management position. Many of you have brought up some unfortunate isolated incidents such as the fire or a lost boy. When you put as many kids in the mountains every year as the BSA does, its amazing that they don't have any more problems. The reason you don't is because of the excellent training provided by your professional staff, implimented by dedicated volunteers. I have personally had the pleasure of knowing Paul Moore for the past 5 years. He is a compassionate, caring individual who truly cares about the boy and his staff. I interviewed him for a research paper I was doing on compensation and benefits. He truly regretted the council could not afford to provide more for their employees. He was the right man for the job. Who among you would like the responsibility of having to look a parent in the eye and tell them that their child has been lost in the woods or worse, killed by a freak lightning strike? You couldn't pay me enought money to take on that job
@BSA4LIFE - You think they compare to the great teachers of this state or any other state for that matter. You are the one who is delusional. I am sure your scout man is great but give me a break. You think two months in the summer are a hard thing? To get paid to be out in the mountains wake up, that is not a hardship. If it is, he could have chosen a different career. He could have taken a pay cut and been a teacher and had the summers off! The BSA has burned many bridges with this one. The only reason I supported it was because we are asked to do so as members of the church. I won't anymore. I know they will get the FOS funds from my stake anyways, but not from me. I will donate and volunteer with my ward but the BSA is long for gotten. I hope the church pulls out and puts the program in place on there own. They are basically funding it anyways. I am sure it is hard when there is tragedy and they have to tell parents. But that is life; I was at the freak lightning strike you speak of. It is sad but that is just it was an accident! If they had been out goofing off instead of where there volunteer leaders told them to be it would be different. I feel more for those leaders and the ones that worked on the boys that night. Not for the free loader at the top! Take your bias and move on. There are people that are struggling right now with the economy and you’re defending a man who makes that kind of cash when we all donate and volunteer? What was his FOS donation???? I am not questioning your hubby and his dedication but wake up and see the light. I would choose a new career path maybe a teacher??? You get summers off and you could volunteer at a camp!
His actual salary was around $195,000 when you remove the benefits...all employess get the benefits. Info right off this website.
The annual operating budget for that Scout Council is $7.8 million with more than 40 full time employees let alone camp staffs, camp rangers, volunteers etc., that he is responsible for.
He must have the same skill set of any CEO running a buisness to make it succeed. If he were running a private company generating $7.8 million a year what do you think he would make?
Non profit does not mean no pay. You want a good organization, then find good people and pay them.
Oh by the way, the volunteer board sets the pay for their executive.
The annual operating budget for that Scout Council is $7.8 million with more than 40 full time employees let alone camp staffs, camp rangers, volunteers etc., that he is responsible for.
He must have the same skill set of any CEO running a buisness to make it succeed. If he were running a private company generating $7.8 million a year what do you think he would make?
Non profit does not mean no pay. You want a good organization, then find good people and pay them.
Oh by the way, the volunteer board sets the pay for their executive.
@curious2 - You are right he is Awesome he deserves a raise! Let’s give him more. The company I work for has many areas and in ours we do about two and a half times that. We don't make that much and I know my boss doesn't make that. If you think that is a good deal to pay him a 195,000.00 dollar salary and not to mention all the other perks we don't know about. Then you are part of the problem! I'll take his job on any day. It’s called delegation. I doubt he has to micro manage all 40 employees. The pro scouter's in this post make me sick. I know many great volunteers out there that are great at what they do but the rest of you taint the pool! So curious2 tell George Hello
@Balute - I guess the you've made up your mind and don't want to be confused by the facts...
Personal attacks and speculation make for great support of you position.
Enjoy you angry party.
Personal attacks and speculation make for great support of you position.
Enjoy you angry party.
@curious2 - You need to take off the rose colored glasses! The BSA is a joke; do you really think it could run with out the church? If it is so great lets see it run with out the church's support. Let him earn his 200.000.00. Since he is so great a leader he should be able to get his employees to raise the funds to operate the program. If he succeeds then I say give him a raise. If he doesn't then the end is near. Why do you think I am angry? I think it is great that they have shown how pathetic the BSA is. I just wish they would have broke the story before I gave to FOS. At least I still have the scouts bringing a flag to my house each holiday. I also just got a raise. I won't have to go to scout camp anymore so I won't miss work for a week long camp and miss on the pay check. You see not all of us BSA employees and have vacation or sick leave. So have a great day or night and tell George hello.
I have been involved with the Council and know that you have good professionals and you have marginal professionals. Some of the marginal professionals are running programs that are always in the red, they have a budget but cannot stay within it. That is probably because of lack of control. They are professional scouters who run the Scout O Rama, and Jamborals that have not made money in year, I here that the recient Jamboral was over $10,000 in the hole. That whoever is running this program should be held accountable for the budget they do not keep. Some Professionals run programs that are always making money and stick to the budgets, Lets get an accounting of each professional and if they do not stay on budget weed them out, and get those that can. I am not saying that each event should make money, but should cover its costs. Call or a public accounting and let the members of the council know who makes money and who loses.
I worked as a professional scouter for many years and my salary never exceeded $40,000 a year.I graduated from a good utah university..and I started working for the Boy Scouts of America and made over $25,000 a year. My family starved and I had to work a side job to make bills. Every year I worked super hard my salary increased a little bit the next year. Never got a bonus. Worked a-lot of nights and every summer I worked by butt off at camps in the mountains. Every December, I never got to take any time off to be with extended family because we had to finish year-end paperwork and fund raising (time off is not allowed). I have friends that have no college education and make twice as much as I started out in scouting. Nintey % of all professional scouters work at the job because of their love of scouting. I make a ton more money doing a ton less but I still miss the friendships in Scouting. I don't miss all the thankless god awful work that I endured. Paul Moore may not have deserved his huge paycheck but most professional scouters (District Executives) serving over scouting districts are barely making ends meat. That is one reason, I am no longer in Scouting. You can't pay me enough to do that thankless work. I sure as hel would not volunteer to do what the district executives do and not get paid. Thats why there are paid scout executives.
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11:12am - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
11:15am - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
in the BSA.
Their Camps Make Money.
Their Fundraisers Make Money.
Their Employess are MAKING A LOT OF MONEY.
Yet every year they are out asking for more while
their BANK ACCOUNTS SWELL!!!!
Let's have a REAL ACCOUNTING from the BSA of WHAT FUNDS THEY HAVE IN THEIR "LEGACY FUNDS".
They could fund operations without further donations for the forseeable future!!!
Fraud
11:18am - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
11:22am - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
BUT, still 60K per while being able to wear uniforms and hang out with other pseudo-official wannabes is a pretty good gig.
Right??
11:27am - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
Soon you'll here about The boy scouts filing for chapter 25 banktruptcy.
Looks like the govenment needs to step in to help out the boyscouts as well cause little Timmy needs his eagle. LAME. I hate America.
11:52am - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
12:02pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
12:22pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
12:35pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
Go Home
1:49pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
2:07pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
5:32pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
If the resulting fire rid the forest of the dreaded Pine Beetle, he'd get the "Pest Elimination" Merit Badge.
If the forest really, really needed a reduction in overgrowth, he'd get the "Forestry" Merit Badge.
If the remaining barren hillside was now available to housing, he'd get the "Urbanization" Merit Badge.
If the burnt forest revealed an oil deposit heretofore unknown, he'd get the "Exxon/McCain" Merit Badge.
I'm sure there are others....
2:35pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
Top executives in the Scouting program need to take a cut in salary especially when they are paid from "Friends of Scouting" donations.... Most people who throw their money away to Friends of Scouting have no idea that their local Boy Scouts see none of the value of the FOS monies.
10:21am - Thu Nov 13th, 2008
The Scouting program will continue to thrive as it has before. I'm sure they will make up the deficit amount through cut backs and fundraisers, supplemented by donations.
I only hope that they can remain a PRIVATE organization, and keep the Government's nose out of their business. No bailout needed here!
12:38pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
Second, if someone is working 80+ hours per week, they are doing double time. Hence, when you break it down by the amount of time they are putting into their job, that person is only making 30K per year. I don't think so, pal. That's where you get into the discussion of is it really worth it??? And you get back to the point of your boss really getting his money's worth out of you. If you really think earning $30,000 for 80+ hours a week to wear a uniform and hang out with other psuedo-official wannabes is a pretty good gig, then perhaps you are the one that is getting bent over.
3:13pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
if you're gonna cut the pay in half to compair to a regular job you have to half the hours too.
4:02pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
11:55am - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
4:37pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
11:31am - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
Anyway, prehaps they would do better if they stopped losing the kids people may want to donate more. Seems like they lose at least one a year up in the Uintas. Then you get the kids that were wrecking footprints and Dinosaur Natl Monument a couple year back, and the fact that they are openly anti-gay. There probably not the first place most people are going to write a check to.
I also don't see much going on for fundraising by the BSA in Utah. Stop asking for handouts and earn it. Try upping your dues as well.
11:51am - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
"Beep Repaired"
11:57am - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
No wait...I got it.
You get a "whitty".
5:16pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
It's a variant of one I heard many, many years ago...perhaps as a Boy Scout myself.
Perhaps it's author was the one who gave me a "Troll" vote....
11:59am - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
11:43am - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
There should be NO PROFESSIONAL SCOUTER'S! Not only are these people rude idiots, but they suck all of the life out of the program. Scouting should be a volunteer program at all levels and the Council offices need to do a major downsizing! It is all of the bureaucracy, politics, and BS from the Council that makes Scouting so frustrating to us volunteer leaders!
When someone asks for money for Friends of Scouting offer to make a donation directly to their troop and not the council. The Council puts pressure on the Troops to ask for money, but does not let them ask for money for their own troops.
Thank you KSL and Trib for making these abuses public!
12:23pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
The Scouts don't care if do fundraisers, its mostly the Church that doesn't allow it. We wanted to do flags like other Troops to raise money, but were told NO...
1:20pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
2:06pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
Plus, as a Scoutmaster, I HATED flags. Lets see... put 12-yr-old boys in charge of putting flags out on every major holiday. It just so happens that the boys don't make their family's vacation plans and most families are out of town on holidays.
Guess who ends up putting all the flags out on every major holiday? Yup... the leaders. No matter how much you organize, push and prod, the parents and kids will always drop the ball leaving the Scoutmaster with the duty of putting flags out on every major holiday. I won't do flag fundraisers anymore.
4:25pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
You MUST have an effective scout committee, or it is too much for a scout leader. If this is an LDS sponsored troop - tell the Bishopric to organize a scout committee for you. Then, have the committee take care of the flags program, with you, the leader, helping with the flags only a few times a year, if even that.
2:45pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
4:12pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
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3:19pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
1:31pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
First, rank-and-file leaders are in it for the boys. There is no other motivation for doing it. To give boys experiences that they otherwise would not get is one of scoutings main purposes. Scouting exposes boys to hobbies, gives them life-long skills, and otherwise prepares them for life in general. A large percentage of scouts base professional pursuits on things they've been exposed to in scouting. After all of this, scouting gets a bad rap due to a few high paid executives. How is this any different than any other corporate office? SOMEBODY needs to oversee it - are they to be expected to do it for free? If you think scoutings top leaders are out frolicking in the forest and 'hanging out' singing camp songs, you're ignorant indeed.
Second, I know what I pay to go to a scout camp. Trust me, based on the services provided and the number of staff it takes to run a good camp, no scout council is getting rich off of running summer camps, period!
Third, very few scout troops (in Utah at least) sponsor fundraisers. The majority of troops here are nearly wholly funded by the LDS church, which encourages fundraisers as a last resort. Instead, they encourage the boys to earn their own money for camps and for the family to contribute where possible, then the troop uses its own money (church money). If that's not enough, THEN try a fundraiser.
Fourth, why the tendency to bash someone who has chosen as their life's occupation something to better the lives of young men? Is it somehow better to be a number cruncher for the local big box store, or to sell used cars, or star in movies . . . ? I just don't understand the notion that somehow people who choose scouting as their profession (relatively few, mind you) are viewed as money grubbers. There's absolutely no logic to it at all. Is their contribution to society any less than that of a salesman pushing things on you that you don't need or want? Would you rather there be no leadership or direction?
Finally, like I said, I don't have an all-access pass into BSA coffers. I'm sure they have some money; what's wrong with that? Since when did money in the bank make someone evil? It's completely backward thinking. Are there bad apples in scouting? You bet! Just like there are bad car salesmen and crappy bricklayers. However, one bad bricklayer doesn't make the entire building industry corrupt.
It's all a matter of education. Those who understand aren't so critical.
5:57pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
2:19pm - Thu Nov 13th, 2008
I like Warren T.'s comments (above a few posts). I stopped trying to keep track of all the $$$ that's come out of my own pocket for scouting. There's an unwritten understanding that anyone called to be a boy scout leader (LDS at least) is going to be subsidizing the troop out of pocket. You know what though, the experiences had and made by the boys are worth it.
3:22pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
4:28pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
Boys will do scout type stuff (I don't mean like chanting about god and country) without the idiots at BSA making a bundle off their parents. Let the BSA go away and let the boys be boys without them.
11:43am - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
12:00pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
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11:45am - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
1:15pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
3:29pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
10:36pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
The program is great- Cub Scouting teaches these boys good values and how to be leaders of tomorrow.
I've never made a lot of money working for the scouts and it wasn't about the money. Changing lives and providing a service while doing something I loved and being able to support my family- what more could I have asked for.
I'm one of those who will be losing my job because of as they said "the economy."
I don't know what I will be doing- joining those looking for a job- I hope that the Scouts recover and are able to provide the program and the values and the camps for my son the future Cub Scouter!
11:25am - Thu Nov 13th, 2008
camp has CHANGED MY LIFE along with many others!
how can people degrade an orginazation who's main goal is to teach young boys to be respectful, thrifty, reverent, resourceful, brave, etc? my only hope with the changes in the camps is that people still go to camp. while the faces there will be different, it is still based on the same values....and hopefully they will be conveyed to the scouts who are there to have fun and learn new things.
i have greatly enjoyed my time with the boy scouts, can't imagine my life without the program. to the camp directors over camps this summer: find the passion that the camping program has to offer and let it fuel your staff and the scouts!!!
Why are we here? To serve the boys and their adult leaders!
9:03am - Tue Nov 18th, 2008
Through out my life, and during my time with the BSA I have lost count of how many times I have seen a youth's life changed becuase of their experiences. Now, I work for a council in a totally different part of the country.
But let me tell you this: All councils are in trouble. Last week I watched as 22 of my colleuges were laid off. Boy Scout camps in general lose money or just break even. Most sleep away summer camps around ours charge more than double what we do for a week. Our council (and those around the country) work very hard to keep the camps affordable so that no scout is ever turned away.
This organization needs people in a professional capacity. Look at other similar programs; Girl Scouts, 4-H. They are also providing enrichment, education, and experiences to youth and have paid staffs. I would love to see this program run 100% with volunteer power. However, I can not imagine that we as a national organization would be able to find enough people with that degree of dedication to keep the program afloat.
I love the Scout Leaders that I have the honor to work with. I work as hard as I can to support them, becuase I know that they do not have an easy job. However, our job; that of the professional and volunteer leaders are getting harder. Youth are more difficult to reach and impact. There are more things pulling at them and leading them in directions that are not helpful. We as a nation are facing very scarey economic times. Many more people are living pay check to pay check and it is a reality that we are not giving as freely of our paychecks as we have in the past and across the board, all organizations are hurting.
That being said; GET INVOLVED! Show that you care for your sons and daughters. If you dont like what your local BSA Council is doing, speak up. We are hear to serve our local communities and we are not mind readers. We need your help. If more people volunteer and get involved, it saves the council money. If we spread the work around it is easier.
I am a Scouting Professional, I am proud of the work that I do, and I will continue to be proud of my job.
11:11pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
The BSA stands as one of a shrinking number of institutions that defend and teach basic morality.
The scouts are deserving of support despite the rare problems with some of the top execs.
If donating to Friends of Scouting rubs you the wrong way, then donate to your local troop, or volunteer to help out in some way.
11:27pm - Wed Nov 12th, 2008
Not only is Paul uniquely qualified to lead the Boy Scouts, Paul happens to possess amazing personal qualities that few people on this earth have cultivated. I know few people as skilled, kind, moral, and dedicated to doing good. Charities like the Boy Scouts need more people like Paul Moore, not less. Usually you have to pay a decent salary for people, who are the best at what they do. Occasionally you get lucky, and get good volunteers for free, who may also do amazing things, but usually you need the combination of both great Scouting professionals and dedicated Scouting volunteers to make the Boy Scouts work properly, and provide a consistent, quality level of service.
The current financial issues with the council are not because of Paul Moore, they are due to the unique and rare emergency our nation is now facing. The BSA's shortfall is a reflection the economic times we now live in. WHY DO PEOPLE NOT GET THIS? This current recession may end up being be the worst since the great depression, and most charities and companies are now suffering. Most of the nation's Scout Council's are losing money this year. Is this all due to Paul Moore, or the council's excessively paid employees?
Good employees deserve to get paid fairly for what society and the market place will pay. Why should people who happen to work for the most amazing youth organization ever created, be an exception? Paul made a nice salary, but most of the other local 60+ professionals deserve more, not less. Nobody is getting rich on the backs of Boy Scout donations. Most employees are struggling to get by, like most other folks in our country.
It's ironic that people like me that know the truth of this year's Great Salt Lake Council story, understand it has nothing to do with high executive pay, or too many employees. From reading many of these blog postings, way too many people do not understand how Scouting works. It never could work as a volunteer-only organization. People who say this, have only a superficial understanding of Scouting or business for that matter. Even the LDS church, with it's "Lay" ministry has to pay some people, to make the entire organization work. Why is Scouting different?
Salt Lake's council had the "Perfect Storm" of problems this year— about a dozen things went wrong, that normally would not happen. I know, because I deal with the council's problem's every day, and have seen this amazing storm develop, first-hand. Thousands of people live here, with the resources to easily help the Boy Scouts with their current shortfall. Yet nobody has done so this year. Perhaps the council is to blame, for not do a good enough job of asking wealthier BSA supporters, to pony-up and help out. Regardless, next year will be much better simply because many good things that "almost" happened in 2008 have been purposely pushed to 2009.
Cutting the heart out of the council, by killing many of their best employees and who strongly believe in the mission of Scouting, and who have taken years to find and cultivate—Merely to save a few bucks on paper, is not the best answer to current money shortfalls. I believe it will severely damage the incredible progress recently made, and could set Utah Scouting back many years. But to make a few people feel better, (those on the BSA board who honestly don't get what the true problem is), and to appease a few haters in the public, terrible cuts may happen. Not because it is right, but because it is what is easiest, and satisfies the hunger for bodies and blood.
Should the council tighten its belt? Absolutely! But those who know the Council's real situation, and it's true potential, and what is at stake, would never write the cruel things that many of these postings say. Nor would they support the short-sighted solution to make huge employee cuts. Right now, a little faith is needed, because things will get much better, very soon! But only if the council keeps it's most valuable talent, to help weather the current storm.