LDS Church reacts to the passing of Proposition 8
Three states passed amendments banning gay marriage yesterday: California, Arizona and Florida. California's Proposition 8 had attention here because leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints urged their members to become involved. November 5th, 2008 @ 5:03pm
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One piece of good news came from yesterday.
@Cowgirl up - Obama/Biden 08!
@Tim G. - Romney/Huckabee 2012
@Lowell F. - Would the LDS population support that ticket? Or are you being sarcastic? I certainly think the evangelical population would support it.
Altough I personally do not like Huckabee but as a Republican who supported Obama this time around that would be an interesting ticket to consider.
I also think it could possibly bring some much needed unity between two different faiths who share much of the same goals.
Altough I personally do not like Huckabee but as a Republican who supported Obama this time around that would be an interesting ticket to consider.
I also think it could possibly bring some much needed unity between two different faiths who share much of the same goals.
@Cowgirl up - Obama whoop whoop! Down with McCain!!
@Service for you - to see how many of President Obama's supporters are still in love with him at the end of four years. Of course, if you get all the freebies he's promised you the you will probably slobber all over yourself about him.
If on the other hand, this country is completely bankrupt and there are police knocking on your door to get your guns and if you are afraid to leave your house because, without a strong military there could very well be terrorists in our streets...uh, maybe then not so much.
We'll see how he does. My best hopes for him...and I mean that seriously.
If on the other hand, this country is completely bankrupt and there are police knocking on your door to get your guns and if you are afraid to leave your house because, without a strong military there could very well be terrorists in our streets...uh, maybe then not so much.
We'll see how he does. My best hopes for him...and I mean that seriously.
A big win for discrimination!!
Now onto the jews and blacks...
Now onto the jews and blacks...
@MMAfan999 - we haven't seen discrimination yet...
Give it a year and-
"All white people must report to the fields tomorrow at 9:00 AM for orientation..."
Give it a year and-
"All white people must report to the fields tomorrow at 9:00 AM for orientation..."
@Cayle Carver - but am worried after seeing some of the people last night. I have never seen such hatred from some on the left who want to take what they think is theirs'...
@Cayle Carver - i can not believe how racist this country is! who gives a dang if the president is black white purple blue or green??? for people who voted for obama just because of the color of his skin are just as equal to the ones who didnt. who cares that he is black. or half black. it is about what he stands for and what he is working on doing for our country. complaining about him winning is going to do nothing now. get over it! race has nothing to do with this people so the more you talk about it, the jews....forcing white people into "orientation" maybe we should. then your mouths would stop jabbering about how unfair everything is because of the color of your skin!
@MMAfan999 - unfortunate you can't intellectually keep confusion out of your argument.
This has nothing to do with discrimination. It has everything to do with redefining marriage.
Your "arguments" hold little to no water when held up to the facts.
What I infer from your statement is you would prefer to allow a few liberal, activist judges make decisions, rather than allowing such issues be affirmed or defeated through the democratic process.
This has nothing to do with discrimination. It has everything to do with redefining marriage.
Your "arguments" hold little to no water when held up to the facts.
What I infer from your statement is you would prefer to allow a few liberal, activist judges make decisions, rather than allowing such issues be affirmed or defeated through the democratic process.
@Bud dickman - What exactly are the facts Bud?
It has to do with redefining marriage so that it discriminates and takes rights away from gays. That is like saying taking away free speech wouldn't be discriminating against the people it would just be redefining freedom.
It has to do with redefining marriage so that it discriminates and takes rights away from gays. That is like saying taking away free speech wouldn't be discriminating against the people it would just be redefining freedom.
@MMAfan999 - marriage has always be traditionally defined as between a man and a woman.
What "rights" have been taken away?
What "rights" have been taken away?
@MMAfan999 - you are comparing apples to oranges.
@older but wiser - Apples to Oranges? Or discrimination to discrimination guess it depends how you look at it.
If I had said something anti mexican than i would have 50 "ditto" votes next to my name.
I have been commenting on this site for a long time and my perception has been that Utahn's are severely racist against Mexicans very biased against gays and don't have any understanding what so ever of religion outside of LDS.
If I had said something anti mexican than i would have 50 "ditto" votes next to my name.
I have been commenting on this site for a long time and my perception has been that Utahn's are severely racist against Mexicans very biased against gays and don't have any understanding what so ever of religion outside of LDS.
@MMAfan999 - Tolerance of the LDS!?!? Surely you jest. There is virtually NO tolerance of the LDS religion.
And yes, apples to oranges. Freedom of speech is guaranteed under the Constitution of the United States. Freedom to marry....uh, what amendment would that be?
And yes, apples to oranges. Freedom of speech is guaranteed under the Constitution of the United States. Freedom to marry....uh, what amendment would that be?
@MMAfan999 - you are so picked on and discriminated against. Let's add bigamists and polygamists, too. Wait, we can't stop yet. What about incestuous relationships, too? If we add you to the list, it's only fair to give those rights to any consenting adults, right??
Your right to marriage has not been "taken" from you. It just limits who you can marry. Even freedom of speech has its limits. You could pay a price for your "freedom" to sexually harrass others.
Your right to marriage has not been "taken" from you. It just limits who you can marry. Even freedom of speech has its limits. You could pay a price for your "freedom" to sexually harrass others.
@MMAfan999 - I discriminate against things every day. I'm sure you do to MMAfan. Here are some examples. I discriminate against people on the sex offender registry when selecting baby sitters for my kids. I discriminate against people with too many speeding tickets when I give my children permission to ride in a car with someone else. It's a long list but I hope you get the point. But these are all descriminations against behavior and not against physical or ethnic traits.
Just because one group of people think their behavior does not effect others doesn't make it so. This country needs more people that will take a stand on morality and the behaviors associated with it.
Congratulations to California for doing so.
Just because one group of people think their behavior does not effect others doesn't make it so. This country needs more people that will take a stand on morality and the behaviors associated with it.
Congratulations to California for doing so.
@Ballplayer - I've been dying to hear how gay marriage will affect the rest of us. I'm all ears.
@Kimmy - grosses me out - that's one way. If you can't think of all the others, including the total disintegration of civilization as we know it, read.
@Sandy C. - to see your wedding photo.
@Tim G. - you prefer to see sexy men Tim?
@Sandy C. - Would there be something wrong with that if he did Sandy? Case and point....
@MMAfan999 - Who would want to see a picture of a naked man!! Gross!! Even most women agree that men's bodies just aren't hot!! They are strictly utilitarian. Made to get the job done!
@Mr. Crakalakin - how does another man froth at the mouth when he sees a long hairy stinky p.e.n.i.s coming towards his fase..ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
@Sandy C. - but nice try. Just pointing out that as disgusting as you think gays are, some of us thing hate is just as ugly.
@Tim G. - And everybody who wants to defend the sanctity of marriage is hateful right?
Get off it - not all of us are disgusted by gays. Yet we still believe that marriage between a man and a woman is a sacred institution established by God that is crucial to the well-being of our society. Just because we defend this position doesn't mean we are hateful. I wish you and others would get over that. The sanctity of marriage is much more important than the whims and desires of those who want to redefine it to find affirmation for an immoral and destructive lifestyle.
Get off it - not all of us are disgusted by gays. Yet we still believe that marriage between a man and a woman is a sacred institution established by God that is crucial to the well-being of our society. Just because we defend this position doesn't mean we are hateful. I wish you and others would get over that. The sanctity of marriage is much more important than the whims and desires of those who want to redefine it to find affirmation for an immoral and destructive lifestyle.
@Sandy C. - please explain how this issue will cause the "disintegration of civilization as we know it". Try to do it without making God sound like an angry homophobe. I'm sure it offends Him.
@Kimmy - Who do you think you are to say what offends god and what doesn't offend god?? I am sure the god of the homosexuals most certainly gets offended by it. Wait, majority of gays tend not to be religious so maybe their god doesn't care either.
@Mr. Crakalakin - Where do any of us get the authority to say what does or does not offend God? Since there are so many different people in this world worshipping so many different Gods in so many different ways, we need to be tolerant and understand why our religious views cannot dictate public policy.
@Kimmy - Any major social decision will change civilization as we know it. the civil rights movement changed it for the better. We believe that forcing acceptance of sexual practices such as homosexuality (through law) will change it for the worse, thus disintegration. Morals, instead of being absolute truths, will be seen as alterable and changeable. People will begin to try and justify any deviant behavior by forcing it into law. Thus, rather than order and civilization, there will be confusion, immorality, and a general tolerance of inappropriate and destructive behavior. Homosexuality is only a beginning. 10 years ago few people supported gay marriage.. Who knows what we will tolerate 10 years in the future.
@Sandy C. - seriously that is your defense? looking at gay wedding pictures grosses you out?? that is like saying that fat bride grosses me out, or wow that couple is hideous that grosses me out. or it could be some of those goth weddings where they dress up like vampires and have fake blood every where. that grosses me out. stop being so judgmental and turn your head if it grosses you out like every thing else!
@MegnDave - tried to quiet the giggles of a group of 14 year old girls when they pass a gay couple in the mall...it ain't easy and no head turning removes the image from my head.
Many defend it saying what they do in their bedroom or behind closed doors is their business....but most gay couples I have seen in public show more affection to each other IN PUBLIC than any other group.
Many defend it saying what they do in their bedroom or behind closed doors is their business....but most gay couples I have seen in public show more affection to each other IN PUBLIC than any other group.
@Kimmy - in an article written in the Washington Post. I thought the article fair in its condemnation of those on the side supporting gay marriage. The supporters of gay marriage resorted to religious intolerance by running ads playing on the general public's dislike of Mormons. Ironic from a group that has been on the receiving end of religious intolerance. The 'No on 8' crowd had resorted to such dirty tactics as this "At the extreme, the "Kossacks" at Daily Kos are compiling a list of Mormon donors to the Prop 8 campaign and urging people to send in damaging information about individual Mormons that can be used against the Yes on 8 effort. "
This line from the article is telling : "Those of us who favor same-sex marriage must keep our eye on the ball: the rapid expansion of same-sex marriage to all states and the repeal of the federal ban."
It is easier to put out a wildfire before it gets started - when the stated goal of gay marriage proponents is the rapid expansion of same-sex marriage to all states don't tell me it doesn't affect me.
Here is the article : http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/29/AR2008102903209.html
This line from the article is telling : "Those of us who favor same-sex marriage must keep our eye on the ball: the rapid expansion of same-sex marriage to all states and the repeal of the federal ban."
It is easier to put out a wildfire before it gets started - when the stated goal of gay marriage proponents is the rapid expansion of same-sex marriage to all states don't tell me it doesn't affect me.
Here is the article : http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/29/AR2008102903209.html
@Politico - That ad DID cross the line (the one with the "missionaries" going into a house and breaking lesbian's wedding rings), whether you're for or against gay marriage. Even the supporters didn't resort to such tactics using that kind of form of mass media with that slanderous of a message.
@Kimmy - California state laws requires that the principles of marriage be taught in schools as young as Kindergarten. Had this amendment not passed, this teaching would have had to include the principle of homosexual marriage. Please do not misunderstand, this is a principal that should be taught, but in the majority's opinion, it should be taught in the home, not at school.
There has also been cases in Massachusetts of Institutions losing their tax-exempt status as "punishment" for an unwillingness to perform same sex marriages within their own walls.
These are two legitimate and real ways it would "affect the rest of us".
There has also been cases in Massachusetts of Institutions losing their tax-exempt status as "punishment" for an unwillingness to perform same sex marriages within their own walls.
These are two legitimate and real ways it would "affect the rest of us".
that 43% of the state voted blue. The LDS grasp on this state is slowly slipping away as the youth replace the baby booming generation.
That's a fact. Or would you like me to read it out of a hat and tell you it's on gold plates in a make believe language.
Be proud all ya want.
That's a fact. Or would you like me to read it out of a hat and tell you it's on gold plates in a make believe language.
Be proud all ya want.
@Skwirl M. - Kinda funny the disagree and troll voters that run into these threads not to comment as they have no opinion of their own but just to make sure they disagree with anything that isn't 100% mormon approved.
@MMAfan999 - And I am happy it passed.
@Cowgirl up - Why are you happy it passed?
Were you afraid the gay might spread to utah if it was passed?
Were you afraid the gay might spread to utah if it was passed?
@MMAfan999 - Other states would have to "honor" those marriage contracts - so if any of those 18,000 people moved to Utah, yep, it will spread.
@MMAfan999 - Do you live in a box? Homosexuality is alive and well in Utah. Can't believe you've missed that...
@older but wiser - I haven't missed it I just don't care about it. I respect people for who they are and love my neighbor without bias. Based on the general reaction of people on this site that is a troll behavior.
@MMAfan999 - I am it might spread to something else like a Daughter saying it is ok for me to be sexual with my Dad and they get married. I know that is wrong, I hope that you do to. I want to take a stand on something before it leads to something worse.
@Turkeyfever - I guess you have a point. If we let gays marry then next is incest, then beastiality, then necrophiliacs who want to marry Marilyn Monroe, then people will marry inanimate objects like a light switch or an x box and eventually people will just begin to marry themselves and our civilization will collapse under the rule of these new asexual beings.
Or maybe guys who like girls will just go on marrying girls as if it didn't matter. Because it doesn't.
If someone wants to marry a horse I will be the best man because that is hilarious.
Or maybe guys who like girls will just go on marrying girls as if it didn't matter. Because it doesn't.
If someone wants to marry a horse I will be the best man because that is hilarious.
@MMAfan999 - . Trollish behavior or hate speech directed at any ethnic, religious, or other group will not be tolerated.
5. Report guideline violations and Trolls. Do not reply to them.
5. Report guideline violations and Trolls. Do not reply to them.
@smwk - This entire news org is dedicated to religion bozo.
Read the headlines. :)
Read the headlines. :)
@Skwirl M. - ..then don't read it! Nobody's forcing you to read news at KSL. There are plenty of other websites to get your news from.
@MMAfan999 - we are so afraid to carry a debate with your high-level of intellect.
Sometimes, it's just so hard to know where to start.
Sometimes, it's just so hard to know where to start.
@MMAfan999 - You talk of intolerance and racism on the LDS end, but everything I have seen from you has been nothing but intolerance and religious racism! What a hypocrite you are to the core!
@Skwirl M. - I'm a troll? Keep on letting that ignorance shine.
The facts hurt huh? Troll away.
The facts hurt huh? Troll away.
@Skwirl M. - There is a fundamental difference between having a constructive debate and attacking someone's beliefs. Hiding your own bigotry behind the guise of "humor" (or what you may call "humor") is not a constructive or effective way of expressing your beliefs. Approaching it in the way you have only fosters intolerance, hatred, bigotry, and misrepresentation.
@Anonymous Author - Only problem is, there is no debate. You can't start to discuss something that the "majority" of posters on here disagree with because you will be "trolled" into the ground.
Look at my post two posts up, it's still being trolled even though it has been hidden. Pretty silly way of showing anger huh?
The fact. I WAS LDS. I know just how out there some of my peers beliefs are. Keeping church and state separate is imperative. This country is a democracy and it chaps the buns of a lot of group think religious types.
Religion is good, when it is just. The "Church", is a business. And the day I woke up, I was truly reborn. Not religiously, but into public office as a Judge. Your Judge. BTW ---THANKS FOR AL THE VOTES!!!!!!
We have some of the highest teen pregnancy, suicide, and drug use stats in the nation because of this ignorance.
UH OH! More facts, I may get trolled into a celestial afterlife prematurely now!!!
Look at my post two posts up, it's still being trolled even though it has been hidden. Pretty silly way of showing anger huh?
The fact. I WAS LDS. I know just how out there some of my peers beliefs are. Keeping church and state separate is imperative. This country is a democracy and it chaps the buns of a lot of group think religious types.
Religion is good, when it is just. The "Church", is a business. And the day I woke up, I was truly reborn. Not religiously, but into public office as a Judge. Your Judge. BTW ---THANKS FOR AL THE VOTES!!!!!!
We have some of the highest teen pregnancy, suicide, and drug use stats in the nation because of this ignorance.
UH OH! More facts, I may get trolled into a celestial afterlife prematurely now!!!
@Skwirl M. - why do you care if you get trolled? Is that why you post on these threads...to get approval from those who ditto you? I write things here that get trolled from time to time. So what! I don't boo hoo about it. That's the way it is when you live in a nation that fosters diversity. Get over it.
Say what you have to say because that's what you believe in your gut...Don't say it because you want to get virtual pats on the back.
Say what you have to say because that's what you believe in your gut...Don't say it because you want to get virtual pats on the back.
@Skwirl M. - Too bad, you lose. The fact is, that the majority of the voters voted to ban gay marriage. FACT: the majority of voters are against gay marriage. FACT: you lost. Fact's hurt don't they!
@Skwirl M. - you are a democrat, doesn't mean that you aren't Mormon. Speak for yourself please. Also, do even know the history of Utah? There has been many times that the state has been more blue than red. It's a wave, always changing. In four or eight years, I'm sure the wave will be back on the conservative side.
@Iliv4sports - Agreed. I know plenty of good Mormons that are Democrats.
@violet - The law of Consecration sure isn't built on capitalistic republican ideals. It's pure ignorance if you believe that all democrats are pro abortion anti-Christs. I think Buttars and Hughes must have brainwashed their constituents with that one. Well at least 50% of them.
@Skwirl M. - I guarantee the members of this great nation, that formed your "blue" party, would have voted yes to this amendment. I used to declare myself a Democrat, until I realized what the defenition of such is turning into. You must now declare that being immoral is something you are born with, you must agree with murdering infants and you must feel that you want to stop all funding of our national defense to be a true "Democrat"........... the list goes on!
@Skwirl M. - I would like you to read it to me. Where are you getting your 43%? Presidential 35%; Gov. 19%; some small local races went higher to the left, but I don't think that 3 out of 10 voting blue is a real trend to the state going liberal any time soon.
Hypocrisy at its finest!
Also, in LDS doctrine wasn't it Satan's plan to force morality onto others? How ironic.
Also, in LDS doctrine wasn't it Satan's plan to force morality onto others? How ironic.
@Shane T - Nobody is forcing anyone to live a moral life. Gays can still be gays and lesbians can still be lesbians. Men can still touch other men's parts and women can still play with other women's parts. Simply stated they just can get married. Majority wins, you lose!
@Shane T - Proposition 8 isn't designed to force people to be straight or tell people how to live. If you want to live a homosexuel lifestyle, that is your choice.
All prop 8 is designed to do is preserve the definition of marriage, the same definition that has existed for decades. And it took a lot more votes than just Mormon votes for this to pass, there are a lot more people that feel the same way as the Mormons.
All prop 8 is designed to do is preserve the definition of marriage, the same definition that has existed for decades. And it took a lot more votes than just Mormon votes for this to pass, there are a lot more people that feel the same way as the Mormons.
@Shane T - Gay marriage is immoral...Yup Satan’s plan was to force morality on other. The LDS plan is to defend morality and stand up to those who would seek to be like Satan and force something on others. The Lord has always admonished his people to stand up for what is right and defend the truth. Unfortunately those who chose to live in a manner that is against the will of our Heavenly Father always seem to have a hard time when believers will not just roll over and be dominated or join in on the "fun".
@Shane T - Shane won't be back to defend his statement as he knows, with the holes it carries, all the water has spilled to the floor.
@Bud dickman - standing up defend the original mormon conception of marriage, ie polygamy. It's almost as if they're ignoring that point, like they're pretending it will go away. Like it or not, mormons practiced a sexually-deviant lifestyle. For a long time.
Sorry, that's just how it is.
Sorry, that's just how it is.
@Shane T - Why do we have to stand up to defend our past. This post isn't about mormon's practicing polygamy, it is about gay marriage. Don't try to change the subject. It was proven here that you have no clue what you are talking about when you said that The Mormons are trying to force people to live moral lives. After you lost, you tried to sly yourself away with a comment about polygamy. Face up to the facts that you are a loser and you have no clue what you are talking about. If you want mormons to defend the original mormon coneption of marriage, go to a forum where they are talking about that. Here in this forum we are talking about how not just Mormons, but the MAJORITY of voters in California voted AGAINST gay marriage. You lose!
@Shane T - Plus that was a long time ago. Things have changed a lot. At the time it was a solution to take care of those widows with children that had lost their husbands. Women had no rights at the time, no welfare programs were in place to help them. The church did what they had to take care of their own. It's not my place to say whether others were perverts or not. The decision to not practice it anymore was made because it violated the laws of the land. I guess the Lord felt it was more important that the Saints abided by the laws of the land than his. Maybe He knew that the Saints could have been wiped away by the government if they continued the practice. I've also always been told I'll only be given as many hardships as I can endure. Who knows if the church could have handled any more discrimination than what they were getting at the time.
@Shane T - So I guess Prophets from the old testiment were sexually deviant in their lifestyle as well? They too practiced polygamy...
If we cannot learn from past history of how nations were destroyed and fell from lack of ethics, morality and yes, truth, how can we expect to succeed and prosper in the future?
If we cannot learn from past history of how nations were destroyed and fell from lack of ethics, morality and yes, truth, how can we expect to succeed and prosper in the future?
@Shane T - "If you read what some commentators wrote before Tuesday's election, the LDS Church and its members' support of California's Proposition 8 was "ironic." For me the irony arguments show that the pundits don't understand Mormons and the American political process.
A blogger at Newsweek-Washington Post felt it was ironic that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints once supported polygamy and now supported traditional marriage between one man and one woman.
For us Mormons, the blogger could have just as well asserted that he found it ironic that Catholics support peace because Catholics once supported the Crusades.
Polygamy is now at least three or four generations removed for many Latter-day Saints. For us it is history that we are reminded of occasionally by the activities of polygamist groups that have no connection to our church and by sensational reporting of the news media.
Those of us who have grown up in the contemporary LDS faith don't find much connection to polygamy and are glad we aren't asked to practice it. So for rank-and-file Mormons the irony isn't lost on us, it simply doesn't exist. By definition, to have irony you need to have incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs. To insiders and outsiders who understand the LDS Church and its members, more than 100 years of LDS history would lead them to expect the church to support traditional marriage. Misinformed journalists would rather base their "ironic" arguments on outdated stereotypes.
Furthermore, what bothers me most is some pundits comparisons between the "persecution" that Mormons suffered in early church history and the abuse Mormons are supposedly now piling on gays and lesbians. Salt Lake Tribune columnist Rebecca Walsh wrote:
"The irony is thick here. But it seems lost on church leaders and many members. More than 150 years ago, Mormon settlers were driven from their homes and their prophet was killed, in part, because of their polygamous definition of marriage. After years of isolation and marginalization in the desert, the church abandoned the practice to achieve statehood, political legitimacy and validation in American society. Now, Mormons are using the same words that were used against their ancestors."
Having just visited LDS history sites in Missouri, such attempts to equate the current battle over rights with what happened to Mormons in the early history of the church is a nonsequitur. Mormons aren't organizing mobs against those who don't agree with them. They haven't tarred and feathered anyone. They haven't driven them from their land and homes at the point of a gun. They haven't locked anyone in a cellar of a jail for months on trumped-up charges.
Instead, Mormons, along with people of many faiths, have entered the public arena supporting an idea which they feel strongly about. They have engaged the public dialogue in good faith despite the vocal opposition. They have stood for something, believing it has an important implication on the future of society. They have used the First Amendment as a means to enter the marketplace of ideas. Those who opposed those ideas were allowed the same privilege. Not terrorism or violence was used to make a stand, but the standard of majority rule was sought. It was not irony, but democracy in action."
A blogger at Newsweek-Washington Post felt it was ironic that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints once supported polygamy and now supported traditional marriage between one man and one woman.
For us Mormons, the blogger could have just as well asserted that he found it ironic that Catholics support peace because Catholics once supported the Crusades.
Polygamy is now at least three or four generations removed for many Latter-day Saints. For us it is history that we are reminded of occasionally by the activities of polygamist groups that have no connection to our church and by sensational reporting of the news media.
Those of us who have grown up in the contemporary LDS faith don't find much connection to polygamy and are glad we aren't asked to practice it. So for rank-and-file Mormons the irony isn't lost on us, it simply doesn't exist. By definition, to have irony you need to have incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs. To insiders and outsiders who understand the LDS Church and its members, more than 100 years of LDS history would lead them to expect the church to support traditional marriage. Misinformed journalists would rather base their "ironic" arguments on outdated stereotypes.
Furthermore, what bothers me most is some pundits comparisons between the "persecution" that Mormons suffered in early church history and the abuse Mormons are supposedly now piling on gays and lesbians. Salt Lake Tribune columnist Rebecca Walsh wrote:
"The irony is thick here. But it seems lost on church leaders and many members. More than 150 years ago, Mormon settlers were driven from their homes and their prophet was killed, in part, because of their polygamous definition of marriage. After years of isolation and marginalization in the desert, the church abandoned the practice to achieve statehood, political legitimacy and validation in American society. Now, Mormons are using the same words that were used against their ancestors."
Having just visited LDS history sites in Missouri, such attempts to equate the current battle over rights with what happened to Mormons in the early history of the church is a nonsequitur. Mormons aren't organizing mobs against those who don't agree with them. They haven't tarred and feathered anyone. They haven't driven them from their land and homes at the point of a gun. They haven't locked anyone in a cellar of a jail for months on trumped-up charges.
Instead, Mormons, along with people of many faiths, have entered the public arena supporting an idea which they feel strongly about. They have engaged the public dialogue in good faith despite the vocal opposition. They have stood for something, believing it has an important implication on the future of society. They have used the First Amendment as a means to enter the marketplace of ideas. Those who opposed those ideas were allowed the same privilege. Not terrorism or violence was used to make a stand, but the standard of majority rule was sought. It was not irony, but democracy in action."
@Shane T - and it wasn't universally practiced. I am sure that there are others who could get into the finer points of doctrine but the bottom line is that the current practitioners have *nothing* in common with those who were practising plural marriage many years ago when they were called to do so.
As I understand it, relatively few marriages were polygamous. Even then, from what I gather, you weren't supposed to just get a notion and go looking for another wife. Those that went around randomly soliciting extra wives were shunned then as they are now. If you got married and you had kids (or if you were going to get married and have kids), you'd better be able to take care of them because this was the frontier and the nanny state had't been invented yet.
I'm not saying I want to live this way, I'm just saying that it was a different way and time. The traditional values of marriage still applied (man and wife responsible for and raising the kids). Granted, it was sometimes man and wife and wife and wife and so on but...
Nobody was supposed to forced into anything and everybody was supposed to agree to the arrangement. Everybody was supposed to be of age of consent. All marital, ahem, duties were to performed in private as a couple (no groups!). I think the original idea was that a good man who was a model husband and father was a rare item in the 1800's (there aren't a whole lot now!) and that sharing a good guy was better than having a bad guy (or no guy) all to yourself.
I dunno, you make the call.
As I understand it, relatively few marriages were polygamous. Even then, from what I gather, you weren't supposed to just get a notion and go looking for another wife. Those that went around randomly soliciting extra wives were shunned then as they are now. If you got married and you had kids (or if you were going to get married and have kids), you'd better be able to take care of them because this was the frontier and the nanny state had't been invented yet.
I'm not saying I want to live this way, I'm just saying that it was a different way and time. The traditional values of marriage still applied (man and wife responsible for and raising the kids). Granted, it was sometimes man and wife and wife and wife and so on but...
Nobody was supposed to forced into anything and everybody was supposed to agree to the arrangement. Everybody was supposed to be of age of consent. All marital, ahem, duties were to performed in private as a couple (no groups!). I think the original idea was that a good man who was a model husband and father was a rare item in the 1800's (there aren't a whole lot now!) and that sharing a good guy was better than having a bad guy (or no guy) all to yourself.
I dunno, you make the call.
@Shane T - in the other direction. Polygamy was declared unlawful by the state and the church stopped the practice. Yet redefining marriage to include homosexual unions has now been passed, and the only attitude is for the gay and lesbian community to fight it.
They did practice that, but haven't fought to make it legal, and those that are part of a rogue sect that do tend to keep it and the practice to themselves.
So who's trying to indoctrinate who? And who's not defending what?
They did practice that, but haven't fought to make it legal, and those that are part of a rogue sect that do tend to keep it and the practice to themselves.
So who's trying to indoctrinate who? And who's not defending what?
This is the biggest crock of crap I have ever heard.. What business is it of anyone's what two adults do in the privacy of their own home?
Yes, Yes, I know that is not popular opinion but how does it impact anyone other than the two people involved if they want to be married or not? It doesn't !
The LDS Church does not belong in this. Please keep in mind that it wasn't all that long ago "The Church" wouldn't allow black men to hold the Priesthood.. This is just one more Church sanctioned form of discrimination..
Any loving couple should be allowed to enjoy the happiness of marriage and family no matter who they are..
Yes, Yes, I know that is not popular opinion but how does it impact anyone other than the two people involved if they want to be married or not? It doesn't !
The LDS Church does not belong in this. Please keep in mind that it wasn't all that long ago "The Church" wouldn't allow black men to hold the Priesthood.. This is just one more Church sanctioned form of discrimination..
Any loving couple should be allowed to enjoy the happiness of marriage and family no matter who they are..
@Wall Flower - were not allowed to vote, or be free for that matter. Now we have one that will run the country. So don't try and single out the church on this one.
Marriage is one thing the church will never change positions on. Sorry.... Its different.
Any loving couple can be allowed happiness together. Just do not expect the rest of society to embrase it.
Marriage is one thing the church will never change positions on. Sorry.... Its different.
Any loving couple can be allowed happiness together. Just do not expect the rest of society to embrase it.
@Oh yeah!................Oh no! - Kinda like not to long ago interracial couples weren't embraced either. Now we have an interracial man as President Elect.
@Oh yeah!................Oh no! - true black men can vote but did they turn white?
as told by smith
as told by smith
@Moodyblue - if you are gonna make accusations like that you had better have some substance to back it up.
I am calling you out right now, I want to know what the heck you are talking about and I want proof
RIGHT NOW!
If you hate the church then that is your bussiness but dont try to lead others astray with your filth and lies about a great man. One who gave his life for what he believed in, even if he was wrong he would not deny it to his last breath, something I would bet you dont have the stones to do.
I am calling you out right now, I want to know what the heck you are talking about and I want proof
RIGHT NOW!
If you hate the church then that is your bussiness but dont try to lead others astray with your filth and lies about a great man. One who gave his life for what he believed in, even if he was wrong he would not deny it to his last breath, something I would bet you dont have the stones to do.
@Oh yeah!................Oh no! - You say marriage is one thing the church will never change positions on?
Like when they changed their position on plural marriage in 1890? Totally moved away from it being a celestial practice to being a sin? Hmmm. Ya MIGHT want to check your facts.
Like when they changed their position on plural marriage in 1890? Totally moved away from it being a celestial practice to being a sin? Hmmm. Ya MIGHT want to check your facts.
@josiahbarlow - Check your reading comprehension. If the comment was "the church HAS NEVER CHANGED it's position", then your response would be relevant. To say the church "will never change" means future tense.
@Oh yeah!................Oh no! - is it alright to embrace marriages that can't support their families financially , cheating husbands and wives, spousal abuse, neglected children, etc...
Those kind of marriages should be banned too
Those kind of marriages should be banned too
@Wall Flower - yet if a religious organization wants to preserve traditional marriage and not participate in same sex marriage, why can't they? How is that hurting a same sex marriage.
Lets allow same sex marriage and lets allow religious organizations to maintain traditional marriage if they desire. How is that hurting anyone???
Lets allow same sex marriage and lets allow religious organizations to maintain traditional marriage if they desire. How is that hurting anyone???
@Wall Flower - Serious question, if you think that consenting adults sould be able to do as they please, what are your thoughts on polygamy? It seems to me that if we let gays marry because it would be discrimination not to, then why not polygamy, as long as it is between consenting adults? Or what about incest as long as they are both 18 years old? No offense meant, I just wonder what people who are for this think, and how they can justify that and not polygamy. Thanks
@scruboak - I am not necessarily opposed to polygamy. Yet I am opposed to underage marriage, child abuse, and a marriage that is not between two consenting adults. Also I know of a marriages that is between 1st cousins and they do fine. Yet I understand your point: where do we draw the line?
My point is a well defined law could allow same sex marriage yet allow religious organizations to practice traditional marriage only. A well defined law can deal with polygamy or incest or whatever.
My point is a well defined law could allow same sex marriage yet allow religious organizations to practice traditional marriage only. A well defined law can deal with polygamy or incest or whatever.
This is a very sad day for equality.
@Matt F - Being a hertosexual female (I just want to get that out there) I could not agree with you more. This is indeed a sad sad day.
but many of us fealt it wasnt strong enough. Homoism is sick and perverted, at least amoung men. I can see how two girls can be attracted because of there emotions and feelings. But two guys is sick.
If you don't like Utah, please, don't let the door hit you in the [no swearing please] on the way out. Thank you.
@VAN - Why do people move or live here if they dislike the population so much? Don't tell me it's because the housing market is cheap!
@Iliv4sports - It does not matter where you go, whether its full of LDS people or just Christians in particular, they dont look on homosexuality as a good thing, so, just keep in your shell and shut up, no one cares about your opinion and if it comes down to it, its a known face a .22 caliber bullet is the best to take your self out with.
@Iliv4sports - why don't the missionaries stay in Utah then. leave the rest of the world alone.
@sloppyyo - You are an idiot.
@VAN - It's a sucky, dirty, patch of earth that you have to cross to get to other really great places.
@SkiOquirrh - Utah is the most beautiful state in the Union. Except for the gays who have moved here.
@SkiOquirrh - Why would you waste your time here then? Why don't you just go to the other "real great places?" And you better hurry while you are still free to move about the country, that freedom will probably taken away By Osama bin barrack soon.
@scruboak - and make fun of utah names like oquirrh. I go to Vegas allot. have to drive through UT to git there.
I am LDS just not a utard.
I am LDS just not a utard.
@VAN - This didn't happen in Utah.. You don't honestly think Utah is progressive enough to put something like that on the ballot do you?
So somehow I can't see how a male and a male or female and female exchanging vows puts my marriage to my wife in jeopardy. Who am I or you to say these people don't love each other?
WHo am I to say that living together but you can't share insurance, taxes, and decide end of life decisions for someone you have been with for 20 plus years?
If religion is the real issue then make it possible for these marriages to be performed by a judge and not a pastor.
There are marriages of people of different beliefs everyday- all over the world- and they don't lessen or make my marriage less of a marriage.
I honestly think the ban on same sex marriages is nothing more than religious hype that has no base.
Before you fire religious comments at me I am very religious, but just as Jesus was the one who said let ye without sin cast the first stone.
My God and Jesus do not hate or reject anyone.
WHo am I to say that living together but you can't share insurance, taxes, and decide end of life decisions for someone you have been with for 20 plus years?
If religion is the real issue then make it possible for these marriages to be performed by a judge and not a pastor.
There are marriages of people of different beliefs everyday- all over the world- and they don't lessen or make my marriage less of a marriage.
I honestly think the ban on same sex marriages is nothing more than religious hype that has no base.
Before you fire religious comments at me I am very religious, but just as Jesus was the one who said let ye without sin cast the first stone.
My God and Jesus do not hate or reject anyone.
@Duane R. - ...how would you like your little boy or girl to come home from kindergarten with a book about "The Prince and the Prince"? If crap like legalizing gay marriage happens, the state will mandate such behavior be taught in schools as "NORMAL" That's just one reason. There are many more. So, quit using your lame "Jesus wouldn't do this" crap!!
@Claybuster - have to embrace the homo marriages or lose their right to be a church. Marriage is between two people who have the right parts to produce a child, if they so choose.
Period. If you body parts couldn't create a human being, then being married to each other is just gross and yucky.
Period. If you body parts couldn't create a human being, then being married to each other is just gross and yucky.
@Claybuster - You better be carefull what you say your little boy or girl may be the ones they write about the Prine and the Prince... What are you going to do turn your back on your own child if they choice to be gay...
@Duane R. - I couldn't agree with you more. As for you with your tunnell vision you all need to get a life. It is a life choice. We are not going around telling you to stop your life styles. So what gives you the right to tell them.
@Duane R. - I couldn't agree with you more. I do not understand how this is going to ruin everyone elses lives. Get over it people we are all human some want to be strait others want to be gay. I have plenty of gay people in my life and they are some of the most giving and caring people I know.
@Pope - Homosexual teens have the highest suicide rate than any other class of teens. Do I need to explain why?
Also, parents that believe in traditional marriage are devastated when one of their children become gay. Normalizing homosexuality, teaching it as acceptable behavior in public schools and other forums encourages a child's interest. Curiosity too often leads to experimentation. Experimentation often leads to repeated behaviors and changed personality. This chain of events increases the likelihood that a child will become gay that would not have otherwise.
Most traditional parents that lose a child to homosexuality are devastated for two reasons:
1)they know the chances for that child to have a happy life go down dramatically.
2)they know the chances of having grandchildren from that child are all but gone.
It's really that simple. Don't for a second fool yourself into thinking that no one is hurt by normalizing homosexuality.
Also, parents that believe in traditional marriage are devastated when one of their children become gay. Normalizing homosexuality, teaching it as acceptable behavior in public schools and other forums encourages a child's interest. Curiosity too often leads to experimentation. Experimentation often leads to repeated behaviors and changed personality. This chain of events increases the likelihood that a child will become gay that would not have otherwise.
Most traditional parents that lose a child to homosexuality are devastated for two reasons:
1)they know the chances for that child to have a happy life go down dramatically.
2)they know the chances of having grandchildren from that child are all but gone.
It's really that simple. Don't for a second fool yourself into thinking that no one is hurt by normalizing homosexuality.
The mormoms and other religions finding another way to control the lives of people who are not of their faith. good job at being close-minded and ruining the lives of loving, hard-working, tax paying americans.
@sloppyyo - Would you say the same thing if the Cathtolic church, Jewes community were to stand for what they bealive for? Is'nt that what you are claming that every one should have an opinion than why shoulndt LDS members?
And millions of YOUR tithing money they spent. LIVE and let live, read your stuff in your meetings and leave everyone else alone.
@Lant - tithing money they did not use. where did you get your facts. Because they are wrong.
@hockey16 - but how exactly did they pay the $2,300 in travel costs involved with this issue then?
The fact is the early church's only income source was tithing. Somewhere along the line, tithing money was used to start their business ventures. Those ventures operate separately using their own funds. The church itself uses tithing money, which likely pays their travel costs.
The fact is the early church's only income source was tithing. Somewhere along the line, tithing money was used to start their business ventures. Those ventures operate separately using their own funds. The church itself uses tithing money, which likely pays their travel costs.
@Kimmy - happens when people have a little information...it turns in to a whole boatload of misinformation, or maybe I should say information with a personal spin on it.
@Kimmy - Many early members supported the Church through non-tithe donations. Members donated their lands and businesses to the church "for the building up of Zion," which is still something we believe in. In fact, when the church first began, a lot of its members were farmers by trade and paid their tithes in non-monetary ways - a tenth of their crop or livestock, a portion of their lands, or with time and talents. So the funds of the church came from other sources - donations, businesses already owned by members, members selling their possessions to donate to the church, things like that.
So, your claim that all church money is essentially tithing money is incorrect. Since you refer to the church as "they," I'll assume you're not a member, which makes it reasonable that you're not well versed in church history. But now you know the truth about that one, I hope that in the future you'll not state as facts things that are, in fact, conjecture on your part.
These days travel expenses and things of that nature are paid for out of the businesses owned and operated by the church - real estate, agriculture, publishing, things like that.
So, your claim that all church money is essentially tithing money is incorrect. Since you refer to the church as "they," I'll assume you're not a member, which makes it reasonable that you're not well versed in church history. But now you know the truth about that one, I hope that in the future you'll not state as facts things that are, in fact, conjecture on your part.
These days travel expenses and things of that nature are paid for out of the businesses owned and operated by the church - real estate, agriculture, publishing, things like that.
For what you are about to believe... Thanks AC/DC
You can't moralize something by changing the law.
Sorry
You can't moralize something by changing the law.
Sorry
Why can't there be legal same sex marriage and also traditional marriage without infringing on the rights of each other?
Circumstances, laws, etc. should allow religious organizations to maintain traditional marriage, if desired without participating in same sex marriage. Yet there should be a place within the law to allow same sex marriage giving them all rights that any other marriage would allow.
Why can't a law maker create a bill that respects freedom of religion, yet allows same sex marriage under the law? Why does one have to do away the other???
Circumstances, laws, etc. should allow religious organizations to maintain traditional marriage, if desired without participating in same sex marriage. Yet there should be a place within the law to allow same sex marriage giving them all rights that any other marriage would allow.
Why can't a law maker create a bill that respects freedom of religion, yet allows same sex marriage under the law? Why does one have to do away the other???
@WoodDoIt - It's called a "civil union". Any two people can form one.Some of us (52% in CA) just don't like them cramming acceptance of abnormal behavior down society's throat by calling a same sex civil union 'marriage'!
@TooConservativeForUtah - Do you mean to say that LDS members (and others) spent millions of dollars to pass a Constitutional Amendment based on semantics ? What IS the difference between a 'marriage' and a 'civil union' ? Does one have more rights than the other ?
If civil unions are granted the same secular rights (federal, state and local) as a 'marriage', then I would have no problem with civil unions being the vehicle for same-sex relationships. However I get the feeling that civil unions are NOT given the same rights. A veneer of "separate but equal" could quite possibly be used to discriminate, just as it did in the segregated South of the past.
I have heard the irrational fear of some Mormons that that the LDS Church would be "forced" to marry homosexuals in their temples if Prop 8 had not passed. Others mention the possible loss of 'tax exempt status' for the Church if they discriminated against marrying homosexuals. I doubt either would come to pass and if any religious institution were so threatened I could easily see a compromise as mentioned above.
In the past, religious institutions have had "undue influence" over birth control (contraceptives - Roman Catholic Church and others) and the right to marry inter-racially or even inter-religiously. I can't imagine modern day America going back to such "definitions of marriage". In the same vein I think the pro-Prop 8 crowd is similarly misguided.
If civil unions are granted the same secular rights (federal, state and local) as a 'marriage', then I would have no problem with civil unions being the vehicle for same-sex relationships. However I get the feeling that civil unions are NOT given the same rights. A veneer of "separate but equal" could quite possibly be used to discriminate, just as it did in the segregated South of the past.
I have heard the irrational fear of some Mormons that that the LDS Church would be "forced" to marry homosexuals in their temples if Prop 8 had not passed. Others mention the possible loss of 'tax exempt status' for the Church if they discriminated against marrying homosexuals. I doubt either would come to pass and if any religious institution were so threatened I could easily see a compromise as mentioned above.
In the past, religious institutions have had "undue influence" over birth control (contraceptives - Roman Catholic Church and others) and the right to marry inter-racially or even inter-religiously. I can't imagine modern day America going back to such "definitions of marriage". In the same vein I think the pro-Prop 8 crowd is similarly misguided.
@schrullenhaft - In the legal world, semantics are extremely important. It is not simply a word someone uses when they think the difference in meaning is irrelevant.
The difference between a civil union and a marriage is merely a social status difference. This proposition had nothing to do with permitting gay and lesbian couples to form unions. In fact, in the Church's statement, they stated they have no issue with such unions.
This proposition had everything to do with forcing what is considered an immoral practice by many to be accepted and taught as acceptable. Civil unions are granted all the same secular rights as marriages. The only difference is the implied social status marriage brings. This implied social status stems from the fact that marriages are universally accepted and encouraged by society. There is no "separate but equal" at play in this issue because social status is not right protected by the Constitution. When the California Suprume Court fabricated a "right to marry," they were in fact fabricating a "right to social status."
The consequences of forcing acceptance of gay marriage is that it removes the right of a person to have a belief systems they define. It violates two provisions of the first amendment - Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion. The risk of forcing gay marriage in temples was never real, since temple access is already limited. I think that stemmed from a real risk, that of ecclesiastical leaders being forced to perform gay weddings or risk losing their tax-exempt status. This has already happened in New Jersey where a Methodist Church refused to allow a gay civil union and had their tax exempt status revoked.
Proposition 8 was never about discrimination. It was about the people's right to religious freedom.
The difference between a civil union and a marriage is merely a social status difference. This proposition had nothing to do with permitting gay and lesbian couples to form unions. In fact, in the Church's statement, they stated they have no issue with such unions.
This proposition had everything to do with forcing what is considered an immoral practice by many to be accepted and taught as acceptable. Civil unions are granted all the same secular rights as marriages. The only difference is the implied social status marriage brings. This implied social status stems from the fact that marriages are universally accepted and encouraged by society. There is no "separate but equal" at play in this issue because social status is not right protected by the Constitution. When the California Suprume Court fabricated a "right to marry," they were in fact fabricating a "right to social status."
The consequences of forcing acceptance of gay marriage is that it removes the right of a person to have a belief systems they define. It violates two provisions of the first amendment - Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion. The risk of forcing gay marriage in temples was never real, since temple access is already limited. I think that stemmed from a real risk, that of ecclesiastical leaders being forced to perform gay weddings or risk losing their tax-exempt status. This has already happened in New Jersey where a Methodist Church refused to allow a gay civil union and had their tax exempt status revoked.
Proposition 8 was never about discrimination. It was about the people's right to religious freedom.
@crmeatball - Would a 'civil union' still get the same tax benefits a 'married' couple would (federal and state) ? Would they be able to adopt from any state or federally sanctioned agency without discrimination (i.e. - be able to sue for discrimination, if provable) ?
The New Jersey case of the Methodist Church's tax exempt status being revoked (for the operation of the campground, not the entire religious group) seems interesting. I'm GUESSING that the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association offered rental of their pavilion to the public for marriages and when it was discovered that a homosexual civil union was to be performed they refused to rent.
New Jersey's anti-discrimination laws currently forbid those who "offer goods, services, and facilities to the general public" from "directly or indirectly denying or withholding any accommodation, service, benefit, or privilege to an individual" on the basis of sexual orientation. If this group only offered the pavilion to members of their church, then I guess they wouldn't have run afoul of this law. I'm not sure how they would get around this to offer their pavilion/campground only to other conservative Christians.
The New Jersey case of the Methodist Church's tax exempt status being revoked (for the operation of the campground, not the entire religious group) seems interesting. I'm GUESSING that the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association offered rental of their pavilion to the public for marriages and when it was discovered that a homosexual civil union was to be performed they refused to rent.
New Jersey's anti-discrimination laws currently forbid those who "offer goods, services, and facilities to the general public" from "directly or indirectly denying or withholding any accommodation, service, benefit, or privilege to an individual" on the basis of sexual orientation. If this group only offered the pavilion to members of their church, then I guess they wouldn't have run afoul of this law. I'm not sure how they would get around this to offer their pavilion/campground only to other conservative Christians.
@schrullenhaft - This is not a simple question of semantics. It is the State getting into the middle of religion. Like the judges who have legislated over the bench (illegal, who polices the judges). If this was passed it would mean the end of seperation of church and state... and thus the Consitution as we know it.
The preservation of marriage is a good step in stopping, or at least slowing the loss of the validity of the AMERICAN Constitution... My Constitution.
The preservation of marriage is a good step in stopping, or at least slowing the loss of the validity of the AMERICAN Constitution... My Constitution.
@WoodDoIt - Are you for or against polygamy and incest as long as it is between consenting adults? I will re-post wat I wrote above.
Serious question, if you think that consenting adults sould be able to do as they please, what are your thoughts on polygamy? It seems to me that if we let gays marry because it would be discrimination not to, then why not polygamy, as long as it is between consenting adults? Or what about incest as long as they are both 18 years old? No offense meant, I just wonder what people who are for this think, and how they can justify that and not polygamy. Thanks
Serious question, if you think that consenting adults sould be able to do as they please, what are your thoughts on polygamy? It seems to me that if we let gays marry because it would be discrimination not to, then why not polygamy, as long as it is between consenting adults? Or what about incest as long as they are both 18 years old? No offense meant, I just wonder what people who are for this think, and how they can justify that and not polygamy. Thanks
@scruboak - I think if secular law could define polygamy to the point that each person had equal rights in the relationship (like monogamous couples), it would be OK. Such rights as all partners approving any new partners and the equal/fair distribution of property when a partner wants to leave the relationship (divorce).
However most practicing polygamists have VERY unbalanced rights, partially due to the lawfully unrecognized nature of those relationships. The FLDS type of polygamy seems to be one of the most worst offenders in this regard. If you want out of the relationship you are cut-off from your children, any material possessions and the community as a whole. On top of this the youth (females mostly) are pushed into marriages with much older males not of their choosing. The whole practice survives on religious blackmail and inbreeding of "victims" taken at young ages.
If polygamous relationships had to be defined in a manner similar to monogamous ones, most of them would fall apart and/or not grow in the number of partners within relationships.
As for incest. 1st Cousins seems plausible; brother and sister seems strange and undesirable (especially if raised in the same household) and parent-child would definitely be unlawful (at least on the basis that the relationship was mostly likely started when the 'child' was an underage dependent).
As stated above, there's no reason to force these "redefinitions" on any religious group. If your choice of partner goes against the teachings of your religious group, then it is a personal struggle between you and your religious group and not one that the state has to be involved in. At the same time a religious group shouldn't be able to define marriage for everyone else.
However most practicing polygamists have VERY unbalanced rights, partially due to the lawfully unrecognized nature of those relationships. The FLDS type of polygamy seems to be one of the most worst offenders in this regard. If you want out of the relationship you are cut-off from your children, any material possessions and the community as a whole. On top of this the youth (females mostly) are pushed into marriages with much older males not of their choosing. The whole practice survives on religious blackmail and inbreeding of "victims" taken at young ages.
If polygamous relationships had to be defined in a manner similar to monogamous ones, most of them would fall apart and/or not grow in the number of partners within relationships.
As for incest. 1st Cousins seems plausible; brother and sister seems strange and undesirable (especially if raised in the same household) and parent-child would definitely be unlawful (at least on the basis that the relationship was mostly likely started when the 'child' was an underage dependent).
As stated above, there's no reason to force these "redefinitions" on any religious group. If your choice of partner goes against the teachings of your religious group, then it is a personal struggle between you and your religious group and not one that the state has to be involved in. At the same time a religious group shouldn't be able to define marriage for everyone else.
@schrullenhaft - to your final paragraph. why then was it necessary to make polygamy illegal?
@brizad50 - I don't believe it is "necessary" to make polygamy illegal. However overwhelming public sentiment in the US has been against this definition of marriage for centuries. This is the 'tyranny of the majority'. This sentiment was so strong that it was one of the primary reasons statehood was withheld from Utah.
In my opinion it would be very hard to practice a "fair" version of polygamy. It has far more emotional, financial and legal complications than a standard monogamous marriage would (and those can be hard enough).
Outside of public sentiment (religious and otherwise), which is the biggest factor, polygamy remains illegal because no one is willing to define a fair, legal version of it. Such efforts would just fly in the face of current popular opinion.
It would be interesting to see how the various polygamous groups would react if offered a means of legalizing their relationships. Would they bother with secular definitions of marriage or would a number of them (most likely FLDS) just shun any attempts to define their "marriage" in any secular legal fashion ?
In my opinion it would be very hard to practice a "fair" version of polygamy. It has far more emotional, financial and legal complications than a standard monogamous marriage would (and those can be hard enough).
Outside of public sentiment (religious and otherwise), which is the biggest factor, polygamy remains illegal because no one is willing to define a fair, legal version of it. Such efforts would just fly in the face of current popular opinion.
It would be interesting to see how the various polygamous groups would react if offered a means of legalizing their relationships. Would they bother with secular definitions of marriage or would a number of them (most likely FLDS) just shun any attempts to define their "marriage" in any secular legal fashion ?
@WoodDoIt - You haven't been watching the news...have you?? Gay couples have the same rights regarding hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights. The ONLY thing this ammendment did was stop them from using the term "marriage" to define their relationships. What in heck is the big deal and why do you care? Does it rob you of something you feel you need. Does it take away any of your current rights?
Marriage has "always" and I MEAN always (not just for decades but for centuries)been defined as 1 man and 1 woman. I swear there are people who will swallow a camel and choke on a flea.
Find something really important to be so adamant about. Stop trying to re-mold everyone and everything into your definition of right and wrong.
Marriage has "always" and I MEAN always (not just for decades but for centuries)been defined as 1 man and 1 woman. I swear there are people who will swallow a camel and choke on a flea.
Find something really important to be so adamant about. Stop trying to re-mold everyone and everything into your definition of right and wrong.
Why do most of the people who are against Prop. 8 think that Mormons are the only religion involved in this? My daughter's family (husband and in-laws) are Baptist - they are well-to-do and were heavily involved in this fight and are from another state. They did phone canvassing and donated money as well as time to pass this prop.
I believe many religions are trying to preserve marriage between a man and a woman because that is obviously (to those who believe) how God set it up and that's kinda what religion is all about - spreading and maintaining God's ways.
"Discrimination" is thrown out at those who believe they are trying to keep God's ways intact but that's sort of like a little kid saying "HUH! Well, well...my daddy is stronger than your daddy". It is (I believe) unfounded.
I believe many religions are trying to preserve marriage between a man and a woman because that is obviously (to those who believe) how God set it up and that's kinda what religion is all about - spreading and maintaining God's ways.
"Discrimination" is thrown out at those who believe they are trying to keep God's ways intact but that's sort of like a little kid saying "HUH! Well, well...my daddy is stronger than your daddy". It is (I believe) unfounded.
@But_then_what_do_i_know - i am sure you hate me for saying that, but it is my belief. but i don't go door to door asking people to change or spend millions to support a proposition.
From the statement:
"Even more, the Church does not object to rights for same-sex couples regarding hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights, so long as these do not infringe on the integrity of the traditional family or the constitutional rights of churches."
So, separate but equal. Disgusting.
"Even more, the Church does not object to rights for same-sex couples regarding hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights, so long as these do not infringe on the integrity of the traditional family or the constitutional rights of churches."
So, separate but equal. Disgusting.
@Uhh... Duh... - I'm sorry, but I didn't read there that the church said "Even more, the Church does not object to rights for same-sex couples as long as they are hospitalized in a different hospital than every one else, have different doctors than everyone else, can only live in certain houses and `work in certain places etc."
The only thing we ask is that they do not call what they choose to do marriage. There is no 'separate but equal' here. You are making up issues that don't exist.
The only thing we ask is that they do not call what they choose to do marriage. There is no 'separate but equal' here. You are making up issues that don't exist.
I am a child of God who loves the LDS gospel with all my heart and who has a very strong testimony and know that it is true. I love the Book of Mormon. I know that Joseph Smith was and is a true prophet. I do not understand all that the gospel talks about but I do have faith that I will understand it piece by piece as the Lord sees fit to help me understand it. I have a very strong testimony that our Savior lives and more importantly that He has a love for each and every one of us that is so strong, that we in our state of being human, will never be able to completely comprehend. I also have a strong testimony that we are not meant to be perfect in this life. We have been sent here to learn and to gain understanding and wisdom. Those virtues can only be truly gained through experience. And experience only comes through trial and error and we could only be tried and create error through our human experience. I know with all my heart that no matter what experience or trial we face in this life, if we do our best to deal with it with the help of our Savior, deal with it and face it with love and the idea that there is something to be gained from it that will help better us as individuals, that we will gain the knowledge and wisdom to allow us to be better people. And when we are better people with knowledge and wisdom, we will have a better capability to see everyone around us as other children of our Heavenly Father who are also trying to do the best they can and who also just want to be loved and accepted.
I grew up in a ward, neighborhood, and family where it was normal and common to always judge everyone around you. I knew it wasn't right but I started to do the same thing. Then as I grew older and started exercising my right to free agency, I realized that I had been judging people for very similar things I was doing and experiencing. I just wanted to be loved and accepted just like everyone else and I chose to go about getting that love and acceptance the way that I saw fit was best for me. I realized that everyone else in this world was doing the exact same thing; they just chose to go about it in a different way than I was and I had the nerve to judge them. Every single one of us does and will and is making mistakes whether we consciously chose to make them or whether we didn't know until after the mistake was made. Very rarely are these mistakes made with the intent of harming others or the world in a way that people like Hitler or Saddam Hussein intended. It takes a lot of conscious thought, commitment and effort to cause that kind of evil in the world. Everyone just wants to be loved and everyone is just trying to do the best they can to make it in this life. We all have our own set of personal and unique trials that we have faced, are facing or will face but each of us is dealing with them the best and only way we know how. And just because we may not have a trial that someone else does, doesn't mean that we are any better and that we are allowed to judge them because of it. We all need to stop hating, belittling and discriminating against each other for the very reason we were put on earth to experience. In any situation or circumstance, there is always an opportunity to learn how to love.
I don't know why I am attracted to other women but I do know that it is not something that I chose. I would not wish that kind of struggle on anyone. I have tried to fight it and tried to “choose” to be straight several times even to the point of suicide. I didn’t find my peace and happiness until I went to a past bishop of mine and explained my struggle of not being able to change my sexuality so that I could be a good member of the church but I still had a very strong testimony of the gospel. That night I received a blessing from him that only reconfirmed my love and devotion to the gospel and at the same time find peace with who I am as a lesbian. But most importantly that night I realized for the first time, that my Heavenly Father and my Savior still love me with the same immeasurable, unconditional love that They have for all of us, regardless of our sexual orientation. I also learned that night that I needed to have faith that this whole controversy will be sorted out and dealt with at a different point and time by the appropriate person (our Savior) and that I am to live my life the best way I know how despite the churches stance on homosexuals as well as the typical gay perspective that I shouldn't have a testimony of the LDS faith. And I am doing exactly that. I’m not in the closet about who I am but I’m not on a rainbow rampage either. I am in a loving, committed relationship with a wonderful woman whom I feel very honored and blessed to share my life with. We share the same religious beliefs about the church and she really is my perfect other half. We are not out trying to recruit or force others to believe and live as we do. Like I said, I wouldn’t wish the struggle of homosexuality on my worst enemy. My partner and I go to work, go to school, and yes, go to church on Sunday (to an LDS ward). We live our lives the best way we know how just like everyone else in this world. We do what we can to help others out in times of need and are happy, productive members of society. Nothing that we do or say is in anyway shape or form, threatening the sanctity of marriage or the family unit. If marriages and family units are being threatened, it’s being done by the individuals within those marriages and families. Saying that two people (gay or straight) who have chosen to be committed to one another is threatening the sanctity of someone else’s marriage is not allowing the individuals within the “threatened marriage” to take full responsibility of their actions that is causing the real threat to their marriage. What is threatening the sanctity of marriage and the family unit rests in the actions or lack of, by each individual in those marriages and family units. There is by far greater, more important and valid threats to families and marriages like infidelity between spouses, pornography, fathers and mothers neglecting to spend time together as families to strengthen the bonds of their marriage and their family ties, parents refusing to talk to and be honest with their kids, parents prioritizing worldly possessions and events above their families and children, the filth on television and in movies, video games and the internet, parents abusing each other and their kids, parents refusing to teach their children morals and values and then lead by example, and parents choosing drugs and alcohol over their duty of being parents. But where is the money that should be poured into those causes?
I know that the decision that has been made on Proposition 8 is what was supposed to happen. I understand why so many people voted yes on proposition 8 and I am not angry at them or hold it against them. That is their perspective and they are just trying to live their lives the best way they know how. But it wouldn't matter if it was passed or not. It still doesn’t stop me from having my testimony and loving the gospel nor does it stop me from having a healthy, stable, loving relationship with my partner.
“If you judge people, you have no time to love them.” ~Mother Teresa
“When we forgive our loved ones, we are also forgiving ourselves and we are choosing love over anger and regret. And that is truly divine.” ~ Dr. Laura Berman
I grew up in a ward, neighborhood, and family where it was normal and common to always judge everyone around you. I knew it wasn't right but I started to do the same thing. Then as I grew older and started exercising my right to free agency, I realized that I had been judging people for very similar things I was doing and experiencing. I just wanted to be loved and accepted just like everyone else and I chose to go about getting that love and acceptance the way that I saw fit was best for me. I realized that everyone else in this world was doing the exact same thing; they just chose to go about it in a different way than I was and I had the nerve to judge them. Every single one of us does and will and is making mistakes whether we consciously chose to make them or whether we didn't know until after the mistake was made. Very rarely are these mistakes made with the intent of harming others or the world in a way that people like Hitler or Saddam Hussein intended. It takes a lot of conscious thought, commitment and effort to cause that kind of evil in the world. Everyone just wants to be loved and everyone is just trying to do the best they can to make it in this life. We all have our own set of personal and unique trials that we have faced, are facing or will face but each of us is dealing with them the best and only way we know how. And just because we may not have a trial that someone else does, doesn't mean that we are any better and that we are allowed to judge them because of it. We all need to stop hating, belittling and discriminating against each other for the very reason we were put on earth to experience. In any situation or circumstance, there is always an opportunity to learn how to love.
I don't know why I am attracted to other women but I do know that it is not something that I chose. I would not wish that kind of struggle on anyone. I have tried to fight it and tried to “choose” to be straight several times even to the point of suicide. I didn’t find my peace and happiness until I went to a past bishop of mine and explained my struggle of not being able to change my sexuality so that I could be a good member of the church but I still had a very strong testimony of the gospel. That night I received a blessing from him that only reconfirmed my love and devotion to the gospel and at the same time find peace with who I am as a lesbian. But most importantly that night I realized for the first time, that my Heavenly Father and my Savior still love me with the same immeasurable, unconditional love that They have for all of us, regardless of our sexual orientation. I also learned that night that I needed to have faith that this whole controversy will be sorted out and dealt with at a different point and time by the appropriate person (our Savior) and that I am to live my life the best way I know how despite the churches stance on homosexuals as well as the typical gay perspective that I shouldn't have a testimony of the LDS faith. And I am doing exactly that. I’m not in the closet about who I am but I’m not on a rainbow rampage either. I am in a loving, committed relationship with a wonderful woman whom I feel very honored and blessed to share my life with. We share the same religious beliefs about the church and she really is my perfect other half. We are not out trying to recruit or force others to believe and live as we do. Like I said, I wouldn’t wish the struggle of homosexuality on my worst enemy. My partner and I go to work, go to school, and yes, go to church on Sunday (to an LDS ward). We live our lives the best way we know how just like everyone else in this world. We do what we can to help others out in times of need and are happy, productive members of society. Nothing that we do or say is in anyway shape or form, threatening the sanctity of marriage or the family unit. If marriages and family units are being threatened, it’s being done by the individuals within those marriages and families. Saying that two people (gay or straight) who have chosen to be committed to one another is threatening the sanctity of someone else’s marriage is not allowing the individuals within the “threatened marriage” to take full responsibility of their actions that is causing the real threat to their marriage. What is threatening the sanctity of marriage and the family unit rests in the actions or lack of, by each individual in those marriages and family units. There is by far greater, more important and valid threats to families and marriages like infidelity between spouses, pornography, fathers and mothers neglecting to spend time together as families to strengthen the bonds of their marriage and their family ties, parents refusing to talk to and be honest with their kids, parents prioritizing worldly possessions and events above their families and children, the filth on television and in movies, video games and the internet, parents abusing each other and their kids, parents refusing to teach their children morals and values and then lead by example, and parents choosing drugs and alcohol over their duty of being parents. But where is the money that should be poured into those causes?
I know that the decision that has been made on Proposition 8 is what was supposed to happen. I understand why so many people voted yes on proposition 8 and I am not angry at them or hold it against them. That is their perspective and they are just trying to live their lives the best way they know how. But it wouldn't matter if it was passed or not. It still doesn’t stop me from having my testimony and loving the gospel nor does it stop me from having a healthy, stable, loving relationship with my partner.
“If you judge people, you have no time to love them.” ~Mother Teresa
“When we forgive our loved ones, we are also forgiving ourselves and we are choosing love over anger and regret. And that is truly divine.” ~ Dr. Laura Berman
@Kindrafoley - I just wish the church would try as hard to help those of us who struggle with this issue as they do fighting against the gay agenda. As one who struggles...I have always listened carefully to General Conference hoping for instruction or insight or compassion or anything to guide me with this struggle. Usually, when the word homosexual is addressed, it is grouped in a sentence that deals with all the great sins like murder, adultry, etc. Repent! Repent! Repent!....and as a young teen who had these UNWANTED feelings, I felt shame and self hatred for just existing. I know why people commit suicide in the LDS community when dealing with this.
I'm glad the Prop 8 passed and I support the Church. I hope members will someday get to the point that they can show genuine love and compassion for others they don't understand. I think in that regard, we have a long ways to go as a church and community.
I'm glad the Prop 8 passed and I support the Church. I hope members will someday get to the point that they can show genuine love and compassion for others they don't understand. I think in that regard, we have a long ways to go as a church and community.
@Russ A. - Perhaps you guys should look into http://www.evergreeninternational.org/
I know General Authorities of the Church support and often speak to conferences of this group - a support group for Latter-Day Saints and others with same-sex attraction.
I know General Authorities of the Church support and often speak to conferences of this group - a support group for Latter-Day Saints and others with same-sex attraction.
@Russ A. - But sometimes people just don't know how to help.
Unfortionatly there is little constructive help just high emotions and rhetoric as if one side cannot be heard.
It is as if some have to carry their cross themselves and fear and shame of the world watches on without helping.
Unfortionatly there is little constructive help just high emotions and rhetoric as if one side cannot be heard.
It is as if some have to carry their cross themselves and fear and shame of the world watches on without helping.
@Kindrafoley - I feel your pain. I have many friends/co-workers who are gay. My uncle died years ago of AIDs acquired from living his gay-lifestyle.
But even if none of that were true, it doesn’t change some certain facts (I’m not judging, I’m just explaining how the gospel works as you know): To find true and lasting happiness, and BEFORE SOMEONE CAN BE EXALTED to the highest order in God’s Kingdom, Mormons believe that that someone must make certain covenants through performing certain ordinances. One of those ordinances is to be married eternally to a man (for a woman) or to a woman (for a man).
Now thankfully I am not God, and I don’t get to decide who gets there and who doesn’t. But He has been clear as to what people must do to enter in there. Will God suddenly help you be attracted to men after you die, and then you’ll have a chance to marry a man and be exalted? I DON’T KNOW. I’d like to think that God is more merciful than most of us think.
Will God allow you to marry your partner in heaven, then both of you can be exalted to the highest order of the Celestial Kingdom? NO, WE CAN BE SURE THAT THAT WILL NOT HAPPEN.
I wish you the best of luck in your struggles, just like the rest of us deal with failings/weaknesses/faults/shortcomings/struggling in varying degrees, in order to prepare to return to live with our Father.
But even if none of that were true, it doesn’t change some certain facts (I’m not judging, I’m just explaining how the gospel works as you know): To find true and lasting happiness, and BEFORE SOMEONE CAN BE EXALTED to the highest order in God’s Kingdom, Mormons believe that that someone must make certain covenants through performing certain ordinances. One of those ordinances is to be married eternally to a man (for a woman) or to a woman (for a man).
Now thankfully I am not God, and I don’t get to decide who gets there and who doesn’t. But He has been clear as to what people must do to enter in there. Will God suddenly help you be attracted to men after you die, and then you’ll have a chance to marry a man and be exalted? I DON’T KNOW. I’d like to think that God is more merciful than most of us think.
Will God allow you to marry your partner in heaven, then both of you can be exalted to the highest order of the Celestial Kingdom? NO, WE CAN BE SURE THAT THAT WILL NOT HAPPEN.
I wish you the best of luck in your struggles, just like the rest of us deal with failings/weaknesses/faults/shortcomings/struggling in varying degrees, in order to prepare to return to live with our Father.
The Church will never change its opinion on Marriage only being between a man and a woman. The Blacks and the Priesthood was completely different. For those of us that believe in the bible, the dark colored skin came from the curse of Cain. God banned Cain and his descendants from receiving the priesthood for killing Able, until he saw fit to restore that right to his descendants. Marriage being between will never change for two reasons. God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. If God wanted gay marriages, he would have made a way in the beginning for gay people to reproduce without the help of modern technology and adoption.
@theguyoverthere - I'll agree with you on the part that God would have made a way for them to naturally reproduce, because that is a very good point!
I just think it's up to people about who they want to marry and what they think is 'morally right'. Not everyone is going to have the same morals and people don't need to push them upon others. They aren't hurting you doing it, so just leave them alone.
I just think it's up to people about who they want to marry and what they think is 'morally right'. Not everyone is going to have the same morals and people don't need to push them upon others. They aren't hurting you doing it, so just leave them alone.
@theguyoverthere - Nobody is asking the church to change its opinion. I can't speak for everyone else who supports gay marriage, but this is how I see it.
No religion can accept a practice it considers a sin. Any legislation allowing gay marriage MUST protect the right of religions to practice as they choose. By the same token, no religion should be allowed to force its will on anyone who is not a true believer.
Until I hear a solid secular argument for banning gay marriage, I will continue to support it. Homosexuality is an anomoly that occurs in a very small portion of the population, so any argument about procreation is baseless and we all know it.
No religion can accept a practice it considers a sin. Any legislation allowing gay marriage MUST protect the right of religions to practice as they choose. By the same token, no religion should be allowed to force its will on anyone who is not a true believer.
Until I hear a solid secular argument for banning gay marriage, I will continue to support it. Homosexuality is an anomoly that occurs in a very small portion of the population, so any argument about procreation is baseless and we all know it.
@theguyoverthere - There is more to love and commitment and marriage than just reproducing.. I know that the church teaches its members that reproducing new tithe payers is of upmost importance but seriously...
To Quote: "Allegations of bigotry or persecution made against the Church were and are simply wrong. The Church's opposition to same-sex marriage neither constitutes nor condones any kind of hostility toward gays and lesbians. Even more, the Church does not object to rights for same-sex couples regarding hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights, so long as these do not infringe on the integrity of the traditional family or the constitutional rights of churches." You see, the church doesn't care about insurance, rights to visit your partener in the hospital, and so forth! The church is trying to protect itself! The whole reason behind it is so that the church isn't forced by government to marry gay and lesbian couples in by it's leaders in it's churches and temples. So many lawsuits have been filed against pastors in Mass. because of this very issue.
Now, I do not agree with the lifestyle. I believe its practice to be a sin of grave proportions. I do not however, have any problem with two concenting people who say they love eachother living together and obtaining the benefits they need for basic survival, such as insurance, tax-breaks, hospital visitations, and what not. Just don't ask the church to recognize, or even perform your ceremony if and when homosexual marriage becomes legal, or sue the church when you are denied!
Now, I do not agree with the lifestyle. I believe its practice to be a sin of grave proportions. I do not however, have any problem with two concenting people who say they love eachother living together and obtaining the benefits they need for basic survival, such as insurance, tax-breaks, hospital visitations, and what not. Just don't ask the church to recognize, or even perform your ceremony if and when homosexual marriage becomes legal, or sue the church when you are denied!
Don't smile too much Mormons.. this issue isn't going to go away. The church proved just how powerful it is by dumping so much time and effort into this. However it did result in some really bad PR for the church as well as cost them a few memberships... mine included (i'm still waiting for confirmation that my records have been destroyed). But we are just a few small causalities of a very large war. I have been LDS my entire life, but have come to the conclusion that it is more of an infection than a religion.
@Utah_Guy - Preach on brother. I submitted my resignation a few weeks ago and am waiting for the same confirmation myself.
@Uhh... Duh... - Thank goodness for this Prop 8 issue, then. Now you FINALLY have an excuse to leave the Church. Now, you can go out and do everything you've always wanted to do since that darn church was holding you back. You can join the rest of the bitter ex-Mormons and bash on the "evil" Mormon Church so that you can feel justified in your decision. Pathetic. If you're going to walk away, do it quietly & stop telling the world about it. It only makes you look more pathetic.
@Uhh... Duh... - When the Bishop comes to your home to verify the resignation (as required by policy), please be cordial and entertain him. Don't just ignore him or yell at him.
@Utah_Guy - ...all I can say is "Goodbye, and good ridance"
@Claybuster - Actually I'm not gay but there's a pretty good chance that one or two of your kids will be Claybuster.
@Utah_Guy - ...you're talking out of your ars. I have six kids and they are all healthy and normal. And you?
@Claybuster - until one of them turns 30 and decides he or she can't handle it anymore. Then they either kill themselves or leave their spouse and family to pursue their true feelings. Happens all the time... Yet this is one of those topics that "we don't talk about."
@Utah_Guy - Is that supposed to be some kind of witty come back??? So now to slam Claybuster you call his kids gay like it's a bad thing?? Utah_Guy, it sounds like to are just against gays as the next guy. Oh and I hate to break it to you dork, but it isn't just the mormons that are smiling today. Mormons make up a VERY small % of the Califonia population. YET, it was the California population that voted to ban gay marraige. Hmmmm, interesting!! You say you have been a member of the Mormon Church your entire life, I doubt you have lived by their standards for the majority of your life!! Don't try to make it look like the church really lost anything when you left, you probably haven't been part of them for a long time!! BAH! If you were an "Active member" your whole life you would have known that The Mormon Church has been against homosexual marraige from the beginning, this isn't some new thing. So if you are so offended that you can't marry your boyfriend now you would have left the church a long time ago!
@Utah_Guy - I love it, after you wrote this comment did you run to your little boy friend and tell him how you told the LDS church off..... I bet you are so excited, holly crap "GAY WORLD" watch out here comes Utah guy he is free of the mormon ties and coming to get your nasty stinky hot bent gross P.e.n.i.s' oh you must feel so free now.
I am very curious how long it took you to come to the conclusion that it is more of an infection than a religion? good thinking Tex.
I am very curious how long it took you to come to the conclusion that it is more of an infection than a religion? good thinking Tex.
@Utah_Guy - If you have been waiting for an excuse to get out, then you were never truely a member in the first place. Only on record. what's the point in that?
@Utah_Guy - If you have been waiting for an excuse to get out, then you were never truely a member in the first place. Only on record. what's the point in that?
@Utah_Guy - Growing up in Utah can be tough because you get the culture mormons as much as the true LDS followers. In true doctrine, the church believes in the choice of and individual.
Go ahead gay people and be gay...just stop trying to make it apart of mainstream society. LDS people are not trying to get their religon taught in the schools getting special laws.
Lets worship how we want to and let everyone else have the same privelege. That is LDS doctrine.
BUT that doesn't mean we won't proctect the laws of this country so gay people don't force their lifestyle into mainstream culture..
GO BE GAY, BUT STOP TRYING TO MAKE IT APART OF SOCIETY
Go ahead gay people and be gay...just stop trying to make it apart of mainstream society. LDS people are not trying to get their religon taught in the schools getting special laws.
Lets worship how we want to and let everyone else have the same privelege. That is LDS doctrine.
BUT that doesn't mean we won't proctect the laws of this country so gay people don't force their lifestyle into mainstream culture..
GO BE GAY, BUT STOP TRYING TO MAKE IT APART OF SOCIETY
@Utah_Guy - The church is PRO FAMILY they are not against homosexuality. They are not about getting more members it is not business. We are about the gospel. Its ok if you want to get out of the church. Some people can't handle it. but nobody else needs to suffer because you need attention. Before you start opening your mouth maybe you should know the facts. The only people who feel sorry for you is your mother and God but If you want a mans opinion join the marines or something. The church DOES NOT discriminate against alcoholics, drug addicts, pornography addicts or HOMOSEXUALS. The church is and always has been to help us all to grow. No matter what we struggle with. And God is not going to change the rules. but yes you can always quit...Thank you for at least not claiming to be LDS when you have no idea what the church is about. That way we can still stand for what we believe and know is right and not have you claiming to be one thing but standing for the opposite. Your problem is not proposition 8 it is your testimony.
Thank God prep 8 its already official, i have a lot family living in Ca and they were thinking to move down Utah if prop 8 was rejected,the divine nature of marriage it is and always be between man and woman " God created Adam and Eve.. not Adam and Steve" to get marry.
@LDS COUPLE APARTMENT WANTED - Actually the true devine nature of marriage is that half of your kids will get divorced.
@Utah_Guy - Studies have been done comparing temple marriage divorce rates and non-temple marriage divorce rates within the Church. Divorce rates among members of the church are the same as outside the church, about 50%. However, civil divorce rates for those married in the temple are much lower, with studies placing the figure between 6% and 30%. The true divine nature of marriage is that it endures. Since members of the Church believe temple marriages are eternal, there is more incentive to work things out.
I have been in a position for the past several years where I have seen several members of the Church get divorced. In most cases, it was a very sad experience. However, I have seen many more go through very difficult times and pull through and are now very happy they decided to stay together. Most looked to the covenants they made in the temple as times were difficult. This is the true, divine nature of marriage - that it can be an eternal union.
I have been in a position for the past several years where I have seen several members of the Church get divorced. In most cases, it was a very sad experience. However, I have seen many more go through very difficult times and pull through and are now very happy they decided to stay together. Most looked to the covenants they made in the temple as times were difficult. This is the true, divine nature of marriage - that it can be an eternal union.
@LDS COUPLE APARTMENT WANTED - Well it's not better to live in Utah. God created Adam and Eve to get married..man and wife. Not Adam and Eve, Suzie, Jan, Carol, Stephanie, Jill.. and so on and so forth. Polygamy is not much better than gay marriage. And yet they still let people get away with it, like the families that live just before Santaquin in the Polygamist community.
@roxy_babe0409 - Except the fact that they are fundamentalist mormons, not associated with the LDS Church.
@LDS COUPLE APARTMENT WANTED - Does including the words "LDS couple" in your name make it easier to find an apartment? I'm guessing you've never heard the term "Equal Housing Opportunity". Landlords can't discriminate based on religious affiliation.
I find it very interesting that all the pro gay people out here and in CA are violantly aggressive in their beliefs and that no one else can believe anything but what they believe. We Christians that fought for Prop 8 did it so we didn't have to have the pro gay beliefs forced on ourselves. People can still be gay wether or not they can lawfully marry. I am fine with them have rights, just not the right to declare marraige something other than between a man and a woman. The Church went about things respectfully where the pro-gay side did things out of hate.
@theguyoverthere - I get your point, don't get me wrong. But what you're stating is that the reason you fought for Prop 8 was so you didn't have to have the gay pro beliefs forced upon you, right?
Well, every time I run into a missionary I have their gospel pro beliefs forced upon me. And while gay pro may be offensive to you, gospel pro is offensive to me.
I'm not saying this to jockey any side, but just to make a point. The churches and religions are forcing their side just as much as the minorities are forcing theirs.
Well, every time I run into a missionary I have their gospel pro beliefs forced upon me. And while gay pro may be offensive to you, gospel pro is offensive to me.
I'm not saying this to jockey any side, but just to make a point. The churches and religions are forcing their side just as much as the minorities are forcing theirs.
@josiahbarlow - I was a missionary for the church. We were never taught to force the religion on anyone. Our sole purpose was to invite others to come unto Christ. Nowhere does it say, force them to come unto Christ. Missionaries ask if you are interested. It's never been forced on anyone. And when people say they don't want to listen, WE RESPECT IT!!! We don't try to sue and say you have to listen to us!
So how many more times will we Californians have to vote on this? There are already equal benefits, recognitions, etc. laws including health and life insurance for all couples (same sex or not) here. So what was this about again? Can you spell REDUNDANCY or WASTE OF GOOD MONEY?
@darkcelticangel77 - We've been wondering about it for the last 35 years since the United States Supreme Court unilaterally vaulted Roe v. Wade to the forefront of party politics and ruined the possibility for meaningful political discourse in this country.
Wow, Hooray for another moral victory for the LDS Church! GAG! Love all the Utah mormons that go to church every Sunday and pretend to be one with word of the church. Funny how there are a substantial amount of mormons that have extra marital affairs, yet they are first at the front of the line to pass judgement on how others want to live their lives. Maybe we should all refer back to the old primary song that says something about "Jesus said love everyone.
@tooeleboy29 - Your right we should love everyone equally. So take some of your own advice and quit passing judgement on teh LDS Church and it's members. I'm Catholic and love teh LDS Church and its people. The biggest problem with the church is those individuals who have left their faith and can only rip down those who have stayed strong to what they believe.
I have seen only one comment that gets it right. Am I a bigot.....Yes. I do not think I want my daughter to date someone 30 years older than her. I do not want my child taught about homosexual relationships in school. That is my job. I do not want my son to drive with the kid on the block that has crashed two cars and is in trouble with the law. So Yes I am a bigot. I don't hate those people but I am opposed to associating with them. Prop 8 defined a word. It was required because the court had decided that the definition of the word could include any relationship. I could marry my dog. I could marry a small child of either gender.
Because we have become a litigious society we are required "by Law" to define what is what. If I were to add an amendment to the constitution of any state to say that aggravated murder consisted of just pointing a gun at someone then the death penalty would apply to a lot more people. Because our laws use the word Marriage we must define what that word means. Prop 8 did that because the courts forced us to and no other reason.
Because we have become a litigious society we are required "by Law" to define what is what. If I were to add an amendment to the constitution of any state to say that aggravated murder consisted of just pointing a gun at someone then the death penalty would apply to a lot more people. Because our laws use the word Marriage we must define what that word means. Prop 8 did that because the courts forced us to and no other reason.
I am going to get a Prop put on the next election ballot for voters to decide whether Mormons are Christians or not. Because based on what I have heard and read from LDS church leaders, they did exactly what they teach their members NOT to do, and that is judge. Judge not lest ye be judged. It's no place for the Mormon church to be so anti same sex marriage outside the walls of their church. It's fine for them to teach what they want inside their walls to their members, but once they go outside their walls, now they are judging and last time I read, there is only one person who will Judge me and it isn't one of those old farts sitting in the big white building in Salt Lake City.
@Not_so_concerned_citizen - As supported by this Youtube Video of Monson preaching to his members not to judge others. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlxQiGBsAdg
@Not_so_concerned_citizen - It's all right for the church members to judge in private but not at the ballot box?
Or are you really bringing back the tired old "judge not" means "take no moral positions" argument?
Read the church's statement. That's what the church teaches, and it doesn't sound hateful or unchristian to me. But to each his own.
Or are you really bringing back the tired old "judge not" means "take no moral positions" argument?
Read the church's statement. That's what the church teaches, and it doesn't sound hateful or unchristian to me. But to each his own.
@Not_so_concerned_citizen - Good luck with that. If there is any doubt, the LDS church is definitely Christian.
@Not_so_concerned_citizen - This whole "judging" argument is bogus. Everybody has a right to draw their own line in the sand of what is acceptable to them and what is not.
I deem it not acceptable that someone drive drunk.
I deem it not acceptable that someone yell "fire" in a crowded theater.
I deem it not acceptable that someone waves a gun in the air to threaten somebody.
I deem it not acceptable for a child molester to babysit my children.
In each of these instances, you bet I am judging.
And you, Not_so_concerned_citizen, make similar judgments daily. The difference is, you draw your line in the sand a little to the left, or the little to the right of mine.
The problem with you and other rabid-rainbow-fanatics, is anybody (i.e. Mormons) who doesn't draw the exact same line in the sand as you are judgmental bigots, in your mind. You demand "tolerance" from everybody else, yet you don't offer a shred of tolerance to anybody else. You are completely blinded by your own hypocrisy.
I deem it not acceptable that someone drive drunk.
I deem it not acceptable that someone yell "fire" in a crowded theater.
I deem it not acceptable that someone waves a gun in the air to threaten somebody.
I deem it not acceptable for a child molester to babysit my children.
In each of these instances, you bet I am judging.
And you, Not_so_concerned_citizen, make similar judgments daily. The difference is, you draw your line in the sand a little to the left, or the little to the right of mine.
The problem with you and other rabid-rainbow-fanatics, is anybody (i.e. Mormons) who doesn't draw the exact same line in the sand as you are judgmental bigots, in your mind. You demand "tolerance" from everybody else, yet you don't offer a shred of tolerance to anybody else. You are completely blinded by your own hypocrisy.
@Besserwisser - How can you compare two human beings getting married with driving drunk or a child molester baby sitting your children?? You're comparing criminal acts with the love between two people. The gay rights movement is no different from the civil rights movement or the womens lib movement. It’s all about equality. Your problem is that you feel you have the right to tell others how to LIVE. The whole argument is really none of your business. Plain and simple. A marriage between two humans of the same sex does not affect your life one little bit.
@trapped in Utah - It's not a crime for a child molester to babysit my children. That's a personal judgment I have made, and others are free to make different judgments.
The others are only criminal acts because society made a "judgment" to make them criminal.
Your argument is, a relationship between consenting adults is nobody else's business.
I disagree with your argument, but I can respect it IF:
-You would similarly be supportive of a man marrying multiple women.
-You would similarly be supportive of a woman marrying multiple men.
-You would similarly be supportive of a man marrying his sister (or brother).
-You would similarly be supportive of a (grown) child marrying his father.
-You would similarly be supportive of a woman marrying her grandmother.
I could go on.
So tell me, do you support the above? If not, your argument holds *zero* credibility.
The others are only criminal acts because society made a "judgment" to make them criminal.
Your argument is, a relationship between consenting adults is nobody else's business.
I disagree with your argument, but I can respect it IF:
-You would similarly be supportive of a man marrying multiple women.
-You would similarly be supportive of a woman marrying multiple men.
-You would similarly be supportive of a man marrying his sister (or brother).
-You would similarly be supportive of a (grown) child marrying his father.
-You would similarly be supportive of a woman marrying her grandmother.
I could go on.
So tell me, do you support the above? If not, your argument holds *zero* credibility.
@Besserwisser - That was the most assnine response I've heard in awhile. Supporting two consenting adults getting married so they can have a family together, be covered be each others insurance, have rights when the other is sick or dies is a little different than supporting incest. Why is it when the bigots try to come up with an argument it always involves incest, plural marriage and beasteality????? Wise up.
@trapped in Utah - I don't get it. You support same-sex marriage but do not support polygamous marriages? Or a child marrying a father? etc etc? Maybe those who support these other alternative marriages would label you a bigot if you don't support their legalization.
If a definition of marriage consisting of "man, woman" only does not become defined, then ANY marriage that any person can think of will become possible. And I am sure there are plenty of gays who would be against polygamy.
Therefore, the ONLY rational choice is to define marriage as between a man and a woman. That is why it has been defined that way forever.
If a definition of marriage consisting of "man, woman" only does not become defined, then ANY marriage that any person can think of will become possible. And I am sure there are plenty of gays who would be against polygamy.
Therefore, the ONLY rational choice is to define marriage as between a man and a woman. That is why it has been defined that way forever.
@BD - BD, I posted a similar comment that somehow didn't make it on here.
Notice "trapped in Utah" could provide no rational argument, only an emotional "assinine blah blah blah, wise up".
He proved my point exactly. He draws his line a little to the side of where I draw mine. His argument is that marriage should be between consenting adults, but there are certain consenting adults he wants to exclude. He labels everyone else "bigots" but refuses to accept that his hypocrisy paints himself as a bigot as well.
"trapped in Utah", feel free to prove me wrong and follow up with a logical argument to support your position.
By the way, if you actually would read the article you're commenting on, you'd see that the church doesn't oppose equal rights for hospitalization, employment, insurance, etc. But you're running on pure emotion, so I can see how you'd overlook that.
Notice "trapped in Utah" could provide no rational argument, only an emotional "assinine blah blah blah, wise up".
He proved my point exactly. He draws his line a little to the side of where I draw mine. His argument is that marriage should be between consenting adults, but there are certain consenting adults he wants to exclude. He labels everyone else "bigots" but refuses to accept that his hypocrisy paints himself as a bigot as well.
"trapped in Utah", feel free to prove me wrong and follow up with a logical argument to support your position.
By the way, if you actually would read the article you're commenting on, you'd see that the church doesn't oppose equal rights for hospitalization, employment, insurance, etc. But you're running on pure emotion, so I can see how you'd overlook that.
@trapped in Utah - So what your are saying is that you have determined that Incest, Plural marriage and beasteality in your judgement is wrong? HOW DARE YOU! YOU BIGOT! Don't these people deserve their rights too?
by the way...the Mormon church statement says you deserve the rights you requested. which is better than what I personally think you should get.
So your whole argument is just hateful. We are arguing on the definition of a single word.
by the way...the Mormon church statement says you deserve the rights you requested. which is better than what I personally think you should get.
So your whole argument is just hateful. We are arguing on the definition of a single word.
@Not_so_concerned_citizen - In that case you should add the Catholic church, and many non-denominational Christian Churchs to your ballot as well! They all supported Proposition 8 just like The Mormons did. Hmmmm so by your lgoic, you are saying that Catholics, and Christian churchs, are not Christians... Thats the first time I have heard that about Catholics and Christian churchs. Way to go dork!
@Not_so_concerned_citizen - THE LDS CHURCH is not trying to get laws in place to fit into mainstream society!!!
GO BE GAY, but stop trying to make it apart of everyone elses society.
Let us all choose our lives in peace.
GO BE GAY, but stop trying to make it apart of everyone elses society.
Let us all choose our lives in peace.
I love KSL comments because it proves so well how most mormons really are. Hateful and Judgmental. Funny that KSL is owned by the church. They are constantly making a mockery of themselves.
Keep the comments a commin!
Keep the comments a commin!
I find it quite funny that the church would talk about making sure to keep the sacred thousands of years old union between ONE man and ONE woman... Did you forget where you came from? Again... Mormons... Are trying to council ME, on the proper tradition of marriage... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
If my marriage to my husband gets withdrawn due to this, the Church owes me for the wedding I had in June...
If my marriage to my husband gets withdrawn due to this, the Church owes me for the wedding I had in June...
@imthedj - You sound like a mad ranting person. You sound 100% crazy. I think you need to think seriously about commiting yourself. Listen to yourself, you are so feeled with hate and anger that you sound like a raving maniac. Wow, good luck with life!
The Church is ultimately a beautiful lie and the prophet false. What do you expect? Their are many good things about the church but divine, completely honest and truly Gods church? Absolutely not. No it is none of these things. The Mormon people while many of them are good are also well fooled and following the beautiful deception blindly. It should be expected. Many however are beginning to question more deeply and wake up and the bravest will leave the church. Many things are kept away from the minds of members that would otherwise get them to think again about what the church really is. What is it really?.... well it isn't what it claims to be. The church should not be trusted. Just thought I would share.
@Kristopher D. - I am glad you are so smart and not blind. Maybe we should follow you, I am sure you could lead us in the right direction.
@Oh yeah!................Oh no! - I am not asking to be followed nor do I want any followers but I would like to see people such as yourself who feel they need someone to follow to one day not feel the need to follow someone or believe in things that are not true but instead claim to be. I only offer a warning that you and those like you are being lied to beautifully. We all have our own path and if this is yours to the end so be it but try to remember that it is a belief and nothing more based on part truths that feel good for the most part. If you look a little deeper you may be surprised at what you may learn that will modify your current understanding but that is up to you. I understand, you have the truth and so there is no need to look for more or question. The well of knowledge is deep so drink deeply. It is much deeper than the shallow pool you have found so far.
@Kristopher D. - I am not talking about reading a book someone wrote, or some scientific experiment that shows we came from babbons.
But a feeling like you've never experienced before. Your probably rolling your eyes and thats because you have never experienced it before. Their are even some members that have never experienced what I am talking about. You do not know until you have felt it.
I have read the Book of Mormon, I have also read Anti-mormon books. I have dug deeper than most people ever will, including yourself. So do not tell me I am being led astray until you have walked in my shoes.
But a feeling like you've never experienced before. Your probably rolling your eyes and thats because you have never experienced it before. Their are even some members that have never experienced what I am talking about. You do not know until you have felt it.
I have read the Book of Mormon, I have also read Anti-mormon books. I have dug deeper than most people ever will, including yourself. So do not tell me I am being led astray until you have walked in my shoes.
@Oh yeah!................Oh no! - You have not dug deep enough. Don't kid yourself. You are believing a lie. Do what you want but please don't push your trip on everyone else.
@Kristopher D. - But I expected an ignorant response like that from you.
@Oh yeah!................Oh no! - Look deeper and you will see your error and your own ignorance. I am only pointing out the obvious to those who know better and have been there and believed all the pretty lies and now find themselves awake, but to others like yourself it leaves you only perplexed and more determined to hold onto the dogma you call truth. Like I say believe what you want but please don't push your trip on everyone else. Your truth is not universal.
I know i posted this on the other page but I want to post it again.
Love is not defined by color, creed, or gender.
I am the mother who is not allowed to even visit the children I bore, nursed and rased. The court says I am an unfir mother because I now live with another women.
I am the boy who never finished high school because I got called a fag everyday.
I am the girl kicked out of her home because I confided in my mother that I am a lesbian.
I am the prostitute working the streets because nobody will hire a transsexual woman.
I am the sister who holds her gay brother tight through the painful, tear-filled nights.
We are the parents who baried our daughter long before her time.
I am the man who died alone in the hospital because they would not let my partner of 27 years in the room.
I am the foster child who wakes up with nightmares of being taken away from the two fathers who are the only loving family I have ever had. I wish they could adopt me.
I am not one of the lucky ones. I killed myself just weeks before graduating high school. It was simply to much to bear.
We are the couple who had the realtor hang up on us when she found out we wanted to rent a one bedroom for two men.
I am the person that never knows which bathroom I should use if I want to avoid getting managment called on me.
I am the domestic violence survivor who found the support system grow suddenly cold and distant when they found out my abusive partner was also a women.
I am the domestic violence survivor who has no support system to turn to because I am male.
I am the father who has never hugged his son because I grew up afraid to show affection to other men.
I am the home-economics teacher who always wanted to teach gym unil someone told me only lesbians do that.
I am the women that died when the EMT's stopped treating me when they realized I was transsexual.
I am the person who feels guilty because I think I could be a much better person if I didnt have to always deal with society hating me.
I am the man who stopped attending church not because I dont believe, but because they closed the doors to my kind.
I am a warrior for my country serving proud but cant be my true self because gays aren't allowed in the milatry.
I am the person who has to hide what this world needs most, love.
I am the person ashamed to tell my own friends I'm a lesbian, because they constantly make fun of them.
I AM THE BOY TIED TO A FENCE, BEATEN TO A BLOODY PULP AND LEFT TO DIE BECAUSE TWO STRAIGHT MEN WANTED TO "TEACH ME A LESSON"
This is the boy Matthew Shepard. On October 7th 1998 Aaron Mckinnely and russell Henderson lead him to a remote area east of Laramie where they demonstrated unimaginable acts of hate. Matthew was tied to a split-rail fence where he was beaten and left to die in the cold of the night. Almost 18 hours later he was found by a cyclist who initally mistook him for a scarecrow. Matthew died on october 12th at 12:53 am at a hospital in Fort collins, Colorado. KILLED BECAUSE HE WAS GAY.
Love is not defined by color, creed, or gender.
I am the mother who is not allowed to even visit the children I bore, nursed and rased. The court says I am an unfir mother because I now live with another women.
I am the boy who never finished high school because I got called a fag everyday.
I am the girl kicked out of her home because I confided in my mother that I am a lesbian.
I am the prostitute working the streets because nobody will hire a transsexual woman.
I am the sister who holds her gay brother tight through the painful, tear-filled nights.
We are the parents who baried our daughter long before her time.
I am the man who died alone in the hospital because they would not let my partner of 27 years in the room.
I am the foster child who wakes up with nightmares of being taken away from the two fathers who are the only loving family I have ever had. I wish they could adopt me.
I am not one of the lucky ones. I killed myself just weeks before graduating high school. It was simply to much to bear.
We are the couple who had the realtor hang up on us when she found out we wanted to rent a one bedroom for two men.
I am the person that never knows which bathroom I should use if I want to avoid getting managment called on me.
I am the domestic violence survivor who found the support system grow suddenly cold and distant when they found out my abusive partner was also a women.
I am the domestic violence survivor who has no support system to turn to because I am male.
I am the father who has never hugged his son because I grew up afraid to show affection to other men.
I am the home-economics teacher who always wanted to teach gym unil someone told me only lesbians do that.
I am the women that died when the EMT's stopped treating me when they realized I was transsexual.
I am the person who feels guilty because I think I could be a much better person if I didnt have to always deal with society hating me.
I am the man who stopped attending church not because I dont believe, but because they closed the doors to my kind.
I am a warrior for my country serving proud but cant be my true self because gays aren't allowed in the milatry.
I am the person who has to hide what this world needs most, love.
I am the person ashamed to tell my own friends I'm a lesbian, because they constantly make fun of them.
I AM THE BOY TIED TO A FENCE, BEATEN TO A BLOODY PULP AND LEFT TO DIE BECAUSE TWO STRAIGHT MEN WANTED TO "TEACH ME A LESSON"
This is the boy Matthew Shepard. On October 7th 1998 Aaron Mckinnely and russell Henderson lead him to a remote area east of Laramie where they demonstrated unimaginable acts of hate. Matthew was tied to a split-rail fence where he was beaten and left to die in the cold of the night. Almost 18 hours later he was found by a cyclist who initally mistook him for a scarecrow. Matthew died on october 12th at 12:53 am at a hospital in Fort collins, Colorado. KILLED BECAUSE HE WAS GAY.
@Alicia E. - There is, and the LDS Church has so stated, no place for bigotry, hate, and/or violence. If very good, honest, noble, polite, nice, people can support the rights of gays to marry, it is also possible for similar people to be against legalizing this practice. How we treat one another has nothing to do with whether we agree with on the definition of marriage or not, rather it has everything to do with how we define and understand 'love thy neighbor as thyself'.
@Alicia E. - this is terrible, but has almost nothing to do with the rights of gays in California, as proposition 8 doesn't. It has to do with legitimizing the gay ideology. Most of the things you refer to are people that can't appreciate differences in our society.
To those of you who struggle with homosexuality, I'm sorry. I hope that you will find a way to overcome it. We care about you
Please let this issue go now and stop flauning it in our faces. We don't want to know about nor be forced to accept an immoral and perverse lifestyle.
To those of you who are "Gay pride" activists. You are sexual societal predators and should be treated as such.
Please let this issue go now and stop flauning it in our faces. We don't want to know about nor be forced to accept an immoral and perverse lifestyle.
To those of you who are "Gay pride" activists. You are sexual societal predators and should be treated as such.
Well folks its a good day to be LDS. I am proud that the good people of California vote to protect marriage and the traditional family. Can you hear me Steve Young? You and your liberal gay loving wife should be ashamed for fighting against the Church and the public good. Are you going to continue to kick against the [removed]? As for gays, they need to shut up and accept that homosexuality is indeed wrong. The people have spoken!
@Scott N. - that you let yourself be brainwashed by a false religion. Learn to think for yourself instead of letting others do it for you.
@trapped in Utah - So, by thinking for ourselves, you mean that we should follow what the rest of the world is doing? If I was against Prop 8, would I be popular with you then? Would I be thinking for myself?
Yeah, I think I'll take the road less travelled & fear God more than man.
Yeah, I think I'll take the road less travelled & fear God more than man.
@trapped in Utah - the issue isn't against the church... it's for/against the deninition of marriage. Quit blasting the church! You're making a fool of yourself.
You will one day know that the church is true and that it is lead by Jesus Christ.He is perfect but the members are not. WE know we're in the last days so you need to chose whose side you're on... Satan's and the or Christ's? If you're on Christ's side, quit bashing his church and quit putting the blame on its members. It was a Democratic decision. I don't agree with Pres. Obama, nor did I vote for him, but I can't complain he won because the people spoke.
You will one day know that the church is true and that it is lead by Jesus Christ.He is perfect but the members are not. WE know we're in the last days so you need to chose whose side you're on... Satan's and the or Christ's? If you're on Christ's side, quit bashing his church and quit putting the blame on its members. It was a Democratic decision. I don't agree with Pres. Obama, nor did I vote for him, but I can't complain he won because the people spoke.
Read up on this story dear friend. Looks like your church is full of them as well. LOL! And to think that you send your children in to have bishop interviews with such "immoral and perverse" individuals. Wow bud, Get of the high horse!
www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=4355348 - 43k - 2008-09-24
www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=4355348 - 43k - 2008-09-24
@tooeleboy29 - One hardly defines the action of many. I wouldn't say "full" -- exaggerating makes you seem like a bigot, not someone with any kind of logical explanation for your opinion.
I have to be redundent. It was Adam and Eve. Now get back in the closet where you belong.
I am amazed at how so many are shocked that the church would favor the passage of the amendment. Are you really shocked? Any one who has read the bible knows that Christainity does not condone homosexual behavior. The church can never accept it b/c it would stopped being a church. Any church w/out doctrine is nothing more than a buiding. And the last time I checked buildings cannot be a church.
If I am going to H for being gay, I will see a lot of LDS people there as well based on comments I am reading here. Its always so gut wrenching discusting to read how high and might so many mormons think they are. It would be really interesting to see just how elections would turn out if people actually voted their conscious and not HOW the mormon church told them to vote.
@Not_so_concerned_citizen - Get a clue! The Mormon church doesn't tell people how to vote. It's certainly not part of the temple recommend interview. I love how everyone claims that it's the "Church" who makes the decisions for them or makes them feel guilty. Ever heard of a conscience?
@Not_so_concerned_citizen - Being gay does not constitute an automatic trip to purgatory. It is the violation of eternal law which causes that. In this particular case, God has defined marriage as being between a man and a woman. He has also defined the law of chastity, which is that no sexual relations occur outside the bonds of marriage. Should anyone violate this law, they will be subject to the consequences. So simply having an attraction to someone of your same sex does not constitute sin. It is acting upon such which does.
@Not_so_concerned_citizen - Who said you were going to H for being gay? It wasn't the Mormons, that's not in Mormon doctrine anywhere. And I believe the statement from the Mormon church, that prompted this discussion, made it clear that it's members are supposed to vote their conscience. Of course the church (as most churches do) will state very clearly the church's belief on what they see as a moral issue. And they didn't condemn any of their members for voting however they wanted.
On behalf of being LDS and I fully support the unity of marriage between husband and wife. My apolegies to those that disagreed with our stance and wish you the best in your endeavors. I hope that though I don't agree with your choices, I do hope that you will be able to obtain the same medical and other programs that you feel entitled to will come your way without affecting the sanctity of marriage. I respect your choices and wish you the best.
@intralinkt - what intralinkt said..dittos. But he left out one very important point. Please wear a condom! You could catch something putting your wee wee in there.
I can’t believe folks are not marveling in the irony: the largest donor to define marriage as between one man and one woman is a church whose founder was murdered because he believed, and founded this same church on the belief, that the only way to the celestial kingdom (heaven) is through having multiple wives.
It appears a hundred years changes the definition of persecution.
It appears a hundred years changes the definition of persecution.
@Utah 101 - I've been a member my whole life, why is now the first I am hearing about this?! And on a KSL board to boot.
All I have to say about that is..............WOOHOOO, lot's of wives for me!
All I have to say about that is..............WOOHOOO, lot's of wives for me!
I am disappointed at all the shallow-mindedness in the world. I am saddened by the results.
The mormon church needs to decide if they are a church or a group of politicians. If they are a church then they need to keep their collective nose out of the state's business. If they want to make laws then they need to quit hiding behind the tax-free beard of the church.
I am disgusted!
The mormon church needs to decide if they are a church or a group of politicians. If they are a church then they need to keep their collective nose out of the state's business. If they want to make laws then they need to quit hiding behind the tax-free beard of the church.
I am disgusted!
@Snow Fighter - Give me a break private entities push for their beliefs all the time just because the LDS Church did makes them power hungry and evil. Come on get something better to complain about like high taxes not the LDS church.
@whatz wrong with people - Ever heard of separation of Church and State? Private entities are not getting huge tax breaks by hiding behind the ruse of being a "church" all the while governing.
@Snow Fighter - ....I think you are behind in your fight - the white stuff is currently ahead. I personally believe you are fighting a lost cause this time of year.
You really need to study up on the topic of separation of church & state. This issue does not have the least thing to do with a government creating or dictating what a religion is to be - as the Constitution forbids .
You really need to study up on the topic of separation of church & state. This issue does not have the least thing to do with a government creating or dictating what a religion is to be - as the Constitution forbids .
@IPTDFOO - I didn't say anything about the constitution defining what a religion is, the First Amendement creates a separation of church and state and that is what I referred to.
Please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state
Please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state
@Snow Fighter - Please!
Do not tell me protecting the traditions of marriage is shallow-mindedness.
The Church has come out several times and said they are politically neutral. And they are. They didn't tell everyone to vote for Obama did they?
However, anything that threatens marriage between a man and woman they will do what they can to protect.
I'll do anything I can to protect it for that matter.
You can have your same sex unions, just don't call it marriage. Call it domestic partners, best friends with benefits. Call it anything you want, just not marriage. Its the same thing right? Do not force the minority to the majority.
Do not tell me protecting the traditions of marriage is shallow-mindedness.
The Church has come out several times and said they are politically neutral. And they are. They didn't tell everyone to vote for Obama did they?
However, anything that threatens marriage between a man and woman they will do what they can to protect.
I'll do anything I can to protect it for that matter.
You can have your same sex unions, just don't call it marriage. Call it domestic partners, best friends with benefits. Call it anything you want, just not marriage. Its the same thing right? Do not force the minority to the majority.
@Oh yeah!................Oh no! - So if I openly campaigned for Obama or McCain or "Joe the Plumber" and gave money to his campaign efforts and told all my friends and family about him and told them that they should vote for him, I would be "politically neutral"? Are you high? That is so far from being neutral...
It is not the place for any church to openly discuss, encourage or discourage individuals on how to vote. A church teaches doctrine and moral values and it is up to the individual members to make that choice. Preaching from the pulpit on Sundays and putting monies toward a political effort is unethical at best and pushes the boundaries of unlwful and unconstitutional.
It is not the place for any church to openly discuss, encourage or discourage individuals on how to vote. A church teaches doctrine and moral values and it is up to the individual members to make that choice. Preaching from the pulpit on Sundays and putting monies toward a political effort is unethical at best and pushes the boundaries of unlwful and unconstitutional.
@Snow Fighter - This issue is not political. Its a moral one.
But all these wackos keep trying to make it a political.
For the past 2000+ years marriage has never been between Adam and Steve, it has only been this last 10 years people have been trying to force same sex marriage.
WHY??? They have no right to change what has been for longer than just about anything.
But all these wackos keep trying to make it a political.
For the past 2000+ years marriage has never been between Adam and Steve, it has only been this last 10 years people have been trying to force same sex marriage.
WHY??? They have no right to change what has been for longer than just about anything.
@Oh yeah!................Oh no! - I agree that it is a moral issue and since it is so MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS and stop pushing your beliefs onto everyone else. If it is wrong then they will answer for it on judgement day as you will have to answer for your judgement of them.
JUDGE NOT, LEST YE BE JUGDED
JUDGE NOT, LEST YE BE JUGDED
@Snow Fighter - It was members' donations.
And unethical to counsel on what moral positions to take? Please. I suppose the churches in Hitler's Germany shouldn't have (and were right if they didn't) attempt to oppose what he was doing. After all, highly charged political issue, that holocaust business.
"A church teaches doctrine and moral values and it is up to the individual members to make that choice."
Did you even read the church's statement? That's exactly what the LDS Church did!
Ultimately, I suspect that your real point is that churches shouldn't be in the business of "limiting freedom," but should only work to expand it. And If that's the case, you'll find that many very smart people disagree on just what exactly limits and what exactly expands freedom, my friend. Sticky wicket, that one.
And unethical to counsel on what moral positions to take? Please. I suppose the churches in Hitler's Germany shouldn't have (and were right if they didn't) attempt to oppose what he was doing. After all, highly charged political issue, that holocaust business.
"A church teaches doctrine and moral values and it is up to the individual members to make that choice."
Did you even read the church's statement? That's exactly what the LDS Church did!
Ultimately, I suspect that your real point is that churches shouldn't be in the business of "limiting freedom," but should only work to expand it. And If that's the case, you'll find that many very smart people disagree on just what exactly limits and what exactly expands freedom, my friend. Sticky wicket, that one.
@cgb - My ultimate point is that everyone, including myself, should mind our own business and not worry about who might or might not be acting in an immoral way.
Your morals are not the same as my morals and mine are not theirs and that is what is being lost on this whole thing. It is ok if you disagree, so what if they don't. It doesn't affect you and their judgement day doesn't reflect on you.
The LDS church should keep to its business of teaching doctrine and values and members should take the information and use their 'free agency' to make decisions. The church should be doing nothing in the political arena to either limit or expand ones freedoms.
You should care no more about what happens in "Adam and Steve's" house than you do about what happens in Mr. and Mrs. Bishop. It's none of your business.
The problems begin when people start trying to push their personal beliefs, morals, values, etc on everyone around them and become intolerant of others because they don't agree.
Your morals are not the same as my morals and mine are not theirs and that is what is being lost on this whole thing. It is ok if you disagree, so what if they don't. It doesn't affect you and their judgement day doesn't reflect on you.
The LDS church should keep to its business of teaching doctrine and values and members should take the information and use their 'free agency' to make decisions. The church should be doing nothing in the political arena to either limit or expand ones freedoms.
You should care no more about what happens in "Adam and Steve's" house than you do about what happens in Mr. and Mrs. Bishop. It's none of your business.
The problems begin when people start trying to push their personal beliefs, morals, values, etc on everyone around them and become intolerant of others because they don't agree.
@Snow Fighter - Now, I am going to take my own advise and "mind my own business". I wish you all well and hope that we all can look ourselves in the mirror at the end of the day and say "I was Christ-like today" and "I was the best I could be today".
Blessing to one and all.
Blessing to one and all.
@Snow Fighter - Proposition 8 was not about limiting someone's freedom. Gays and lesbians are afforded the same civil rights as others through civil unions. The only difference between a civil union and a marriage is the implied social status which comes with the word marriage. This social status comes from the fact that society universally accepts marriage, where many people do not condone same-sex relationships. Since we are not guaranteed social status as a right, there is no limitation of rights.
You state "The problems begin when people start trying to push their personal beliefs, morals, values, etc on everyone around them and become intolerant of others because they don't agree." Ironically, this was exactly what those fighting against Prop 8 were doing, they were forcing their beliefs, morals, values on others in order to gain universal social acceptance.
There is a big difference between tolerance and acceptance. Tolerance by definition implies disagreement. But it is really more an agreement to disagree. Acceptance is where there is agreement, where both sides reach a point where they can agree. The Church's position in this issue is very clear - tolerance. Their involvement in this issue was to exert their right to establish their own belief system.
You state "The problems begin when people start trying to push their personal beliefs, morals, values, etc on everyone around them and become intolerant of others because they don't agree." Ironically, this was exactly what those fighting against Prop 8 were doing, they were forcing their beliefs, morals, values on others in order to gain universal social acceptance.
There is a big difference between tolerance and acceptance. Tolerance by definition implies disagreement. But it is really more an agreement to disagree. Acceptance is where there is agreement, where both sides reach a point where they can agree. The Church's position in this issue is very clear - tolerance. Their involvement in this issue was to exert their right to establish their own belief system.
@Snow Fighter - Sometimes yes, but not always
That is like saying.
"I know their is a child molester that lives there and he just invited two little girls into his apartment. I do not know what he is doing with them and its none of my business. I should mind my own business."
Are you stupid or just high? Or are you just minding your own business?
Either way, you are wrong. No one in their right mind would mind their own business in a situation like that. Why? Because it does matter.
The Church is just trying to preserve Marriage for what it has always been. It has been around for thousands and thousands of years and it has only been during the last 10 years the minority has been trying to make it mainstream. WHY?
I do not want my kids growing up thinking it is normal to marry their own sex. Because it is not ok, that is not what marriage is about. I know they will learn that some people are gay and thats ok. If [removed] and want to live with another gay person, thats ok, but being able Marry them is wrong. Go get your civil union if thats what you want. Its the same thing right? Just don't ruin the tradition of Marriage.
That is like saying.
"I know their is a child molester that lives there and he just invited two little girls into his apartment. I do not know what he is doing with them and its none of my business. I should mind my own business."
Are you stupid or just high? Or are you just minding your own business?
Either way, you are wrong. No one in their right mind would mind their own business in a situation like that. Why? Because it does matter.
The Church is just trying to preserve Marriage for what it has always been. It has been around for thousands and thousands of years and it has only been during the last 10 years the minority has been trying to make it mainstream. WHY?
I do not want my kids growing up thinking it is normal to marry their own sex. Because it is not ok, that is not what marriage is about. I know they will learn that some people are gay and thats ok. If [removed] and want to live with another gay person, thats ok, but being able Marry them is wrong. Go get your civil union if thats what you want. Its the same thing right? Just don't ruin the tradition of Marriage.
@Snow Fighter - The only thing that is sad is that if the churches (notice the plural) didn't take a stand, the gay/lesbian community would push it too far the other way and start teaching THEIR beliefs and enforcing THEIR ideals on society -- teaching this in schools, forcing religions to legitimize their unions. This can be proven from what happened in Massachusetts.
I believe as you do -- in a perfect world, everyone would mind their own business, and as Voltaire says through the mouth of Candide, "tend to their own gardens".
However, this world is not perfect. Thus, BOTH sides are trying to enforce their beliefs on others.
I believe as you do -- in a perfect world, everyone would mind their own business, and as Voltaire says through the mouth of Candide, "tend to their own gardens".
However, this world is not perfect. Thus, BOTH sides are trying to enforce their beliefs on others.
where do you think thesse people will be getting married if it passed. who do you think will be marrying them
@doUcWatiC - Courthouses, resorts, Unitarian churches, back yards, etc. Pretty much any place people get married now except in Christian churches. They can be married by judges, court clerks, justices of the peace, clergy from gay-tolerant churches, etc.
The proposition should have addressed this question by providing protection for religions who feel they will be threatened or forced into performing ceremonies that run contrary to their beliefs.
The proposition should have addressed this question by providing protection for religions who feel they will be threatened or forced into performing ceremonies that run contrary to their beliefs.
Several people have asked how same sex marriages could possible hurt anyone else. Scientific studies have answered that question. They have shown that same-sex marriage does in fact weaken and hurt all of society.
From a study conducted at Yale: "In recent years, marriage has weakened, with serious negative consequences for society as a whole. Four developments are especially troubling: divorce, illegitimacy, cohabitation, and same-sex marriage."
From a study conducted by Dr. Paul Cameron: "Society has a vested interest in prohibiting behavior that endangers the health or safety of the community. Because of this, homosexual liaisons have historically been forbidden by law." He cites several studies conducted over the past 30 years that have shown a range of problems from same-sex relationships: from higher health risks to higher rates of domestic violence.
There are numerous studies that show similiar results. This isn't an issue about interfering in the lives of two consenting adults, its not about discrimination, its about what is healthy for society.
There are, of course, other studies that try to show that children raised by same-sex couples are as healthy as children raised by heterosexual couples. However, Dr. Nock from the University of Virginia has studied several hundred pro same-sex studies and has concluded that they "contained at least one fatal flaw of design or execution, and not one of them was conducted according to generally accepted standards of research."
However, even if science didn't so clearly support what the Church has been saying all along, I would still follow the teachings of the Church. Christ leads the Church. Scientific studies are led by imperfect people who, although they are doing their best, still get things wrong sometimes.
It is nice when scientists get it right though. :)
From a study conducted at Yale: "In recent years, marriage has weakened, with serious negative consequences for society as a whole. Four developments are especially troubling: divorce, illegitimacy, cohabitation, and same-sex marriage."
From a study conducted by Dr. Paul Cameron: "Society has a vested interest in prohibiting behavior that endangers the health or safety of the community. Because of this, homosexual liaisons have historically been forbidden by law." He cites several studies conducted over the past 30 years that have shown a range of problems from same-sex relationships: from higher health risks to higher rates of domestic violence.
There are numerous studies that show similiar results. This isn't an issue about interfering in the lives of two consenting adults, its not about discrimination, its about what is healthy for society.
There are, of course, other studies that try to show that children raised by same-sex couples are as healthy as children raised by heterosexual couples. However, Dr. Nock from the University of Virginia has studied several hundred pro same-sex studies and has concluded that they "contained at least one fatal flaw of design or execution, and not one of them was conducted according to generally accepted standards of research."
However, even if science didn't so clearly support what the Church has been saying all along, I would still follow the teachings of the Church. Christ leads the Church. Scientific studies are led by imperfect people who, although they are doing their best, still get things wrong sometimes.
It is nice when scientists get it right though. :)
@Nicademus - You quote a discredited scientist to prove your point? LOL You'd have more credibility if you claimed an angel visited your bedroom at night and told you so... Oh wait, that sounds familiar...
@sporto - You're right, I just checked on it, Paul Cameron has been discredited. I should have checked that source. Thanks for pointing that out. What about all of the others? If he were the only one, fine you proved your point. However, there are tons of studies that show how same-sex marriages impact society. And like I said, sometimes scientists get it right, and sometimes they get it wrong. But the truth is still the truth.
I am surprised that the LDS church is not more understanding in this situation. After all, they have had thier own alternitave marrage practices so one would think they wouldnt try to restrict the marage practices of others. Also, for the LDS church to get mixed up in politics is sad. If LDS or any other church wants to maintain the freedom of religion (And other freedoms) maybe they should respect the freedoms of others instead of passing judgement all the time. Sadly, I think that churches are more about hatred and intolerance than god and jesus. This is a sad day for LDS because they mat have won prop 8 but they have suffered a bigger loss.
1:12pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
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unfortunately, there will be a whole lot of fudge packed between now and then. And the fight for the moral high ground must continue to be fought until that day comes.
3:29pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
3:48pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
Keep government out of the bedroom-better watch out they may ban what ever it is that you do in the privicy of your own bedroom.
what does it matter if a gay couple wants to show their love for their partner with a ceremony-its only a ceremony-get off your high horse
what would Jesus do?
3:55pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
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9:14pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
'Tail.
4:28pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
5:01pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
God does NOT like handicapped people. Handicapped people could not approach God. Their presence would profane his sanctuary. (Lev 21:16-23) This scripture single-handedly offends almost every category of handicapped persons you can name. The blind, lame, injured, hunchbacks and dwarfs are specifically named. If anyone is left out, the catchall phrase "anyone with a blemish" is thrown in to cover them. I guess in Israel, the handicapped parking stalls were at the far end of the parking lot.
So then come one now. Let's rally together and get rid of the handicapped people's right's too, bnecause God does not like them blemished people!
I am so sick of people using the Bible to justify their position while leaving out all of the other horrible things the Bible says is "right and wrong".
5:59pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/5/33,62#33
8:25pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
9:17pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
God voted against gay marriage. Deal with it.
'Tail.
8:29am - Thu Nov 06th, 2008
Um...so what you are implying is God makes Junk when it comes to the gays? Oh, I guess "the" church is God?
How many Mormons, are pediphilles, adulters, and child molesters, yet if you are one to wear "magic underware," you are better than the rest? Right...this has not been my dealings after 3 marriages to Mormons, including a Stake President. B
1:25pm - Thu Nov 06th, 2008
While some may use their membership and activity to self qualify themselves to a higher level, that is not what they are taught.
You are making the common mistake that Mormons think that they are better than anyone else. Some do, many do not. Those who truly follow the teachings of Christ realize with humility their mortal failings and mourn them and also mourn for the failings of others and the turmoil it causes in their lives.
6:25pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
6:38pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
are you saying that homosexuality is a handicap?
8:11pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
Usually when somebody states that something is not what it looks like....it really is what it looks like.
4:33pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
Hmmmm. What a lousy argument.
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"I don't think that anyone should have any right to decide who you can and cannot marry."
just as soon as you put as much effeort defending the right for gay and lesbians to marry as you put into giving polygamists the right to marry who they want.
One problem I have is that there seems to be many people who support gay marriage but will not support polygamy. How hypocritical is that? The only way the gay marriage supporters will truely be fighting for human marriage rights will be if they include polygamy on the table of issues.
7:52pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
Lev.18
[22] Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Lev.20
[13] If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
God already judged the "lifestyle choice", He condemned it.
8:42am - Thu Nov 06th, 2008
8:42am - Thu Nov 06th, 2008
8:25pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
However, please listen to my point of view:
You are right about what happens in the bedroom being your own business..it definitely is. People have their agency and that is a beautiful thing.
But, asking to have marriage be between man and man, or woman and woman or...anything else, is taking it out of the bedroom.
When something becomes a law, it can be taught at public schools. What happens when "sex education" takes on a whole new meaning?
This is where democracy is so wonderful. People are able to vote on what should and should not become "law".
I, for one, am NOT apposed to people having the right to a legal binding contract that gives the couple legal rights.
But, I do think that marriage (the word marriage and all that it entails) is sacred and has been ordained of God. And I think that Jesus believes that, too.
Respectfully,
5:58am - Fri Nov 07th, 2008
Please read up on Sodom and Gomorrah and you will know exactly what Christ would do.
3:51pm - Tue May 26th, 2009
5:31pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
Come on, man.
4:21pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
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9:45pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
You have voted Obama into the Presidency under the false notion that he will bring balance to the force or something. I think you'll be sorry to find it's all force and no balance.
10:00pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
I think Obama will choke on his "change" promises and will hopefully be gone after 4 years without appointing too many activist judges. Of course, the American people may be too dumb to notice when he does choke--they voted him into office so that's not saying a whole lot about the intelligence level in this country. It could be a long 8 years. :P
3:15pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
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7:15pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
Thank you.
juan@juansoriginalart.com
1:24pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
Sadly, thanks to the voters, now the homos is goin to be denied the misery of marriage. It just ain't fair that we straight people have the punishment of marriage available to us, and we are goin to let them homos off the hook.
1:29pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
Marriage is available to all. A homosexual can marry any person of the opposite sex, just like any heterosexual can not marry a person of the same sex.
Again, your poor arguments are decimated by facts.
1:51pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
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3:40pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
The queer people hijacked the word "Gay". Many groups have done the same thing to perfectly good words over the years to soften their cause.
Queer people are far from gay. The one's I have been around are always whining about something.
I think the term "Queer" is a perfect word for this group of people. Look it up in the dictionary. It's a perfect fit.
Sk8boy
4:36pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
5:21pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
Heterosexual couples still engage in some creepy sex practices, and I wopuld never morally accept them either.
We're judged for our own sins. God (if he/she even exsists)is the main Judge so why can't humans make their own mistakes without other people mandating what they want you to do or not do?!
Banning gay marriage because some ancient book said some invisible man in the sky said he abhorred it is bordering insanity. Christian's only make up less than 1% of religious followings. Those who don't believe are ebing force to follow these "Christian's" biblical laws, they are being forced to follow a religious moral code that not everyone believes in.
Mormon's still practice spiritual polygamay and have been told by their past prophet's that polygamy will return and they will be asked to follow it. Of course if they don't they can kiss that Celestial Dream good-bye.
I'm sure if Romney had been voted in (ha ha ha) then the Prophet would have tried pushing for the legalization of Polygamy so this doctrine would be restored to the one true church.
5:34pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
Yes, God is the ultimate judge, but I don't want homos pushing their sexuality onto me, and I'm sure as it obviously is agreed upon, that others don't want that either.
So try and get a clue and until you can say something intelligent, and that has some truth behind it, then don't say anything.
5:35pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
but regardless, the LDS Church is not trying to mainstream the doctrines to be taught in schools, courts, etc. They worship how they will and give other people the same right.
So gay people, please go about being gay. BUT STOP TRYING TO CRAM IT DOWN everyone's throat and make it apart of mainstream society.
We can all live being able to believe what we want, in peace.
11:33pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
1:46am - Thu Nov 06th, 2008
12:31pm - Fri Nov 07th, 2008
San Fransisco.
8:50am - Thu Nov 06th, 2008
Remember...Hetero's give birth to Homosexuals.
8:34am - Thu Nov 06th, 2008
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3:15pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
If you disagree that this should not have been voted on, you are welcomed to say so.
1:24pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
It will be strikingly similar to other "revelations" that eliminated polygamy, gave blacks the priesthood, and altered sacred temple ceremonies. Three things that "prophets" once said were part of gospel doctrine and were perfect practices.
1:26pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
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2:04pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
Sorry LDS bashers, some of your arguments have been taken away today.
I wonder what percentage of yes for 8 votes were actually LDS voters. If anyone knows I would like to know.
2:17pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
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By banning gay marriage we are hurting normal people who simply have different sexual preferences. They are not campaigning to push for others to be gay or trying to "indoctrinate" others with their beliefs, they just want to live their lives and enjoy the same rights as everyone else.
4:07pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
The only thing they don't have (as far as I'm aware; I'd appreciate feedback if I'm wrong) is teachers teaching this in schools, and this union being defined as "marriage". That's about it.
In the state where this distinction has not been made, gay and lesbian unions have NOT been idly sitting by, and HAVE made pushes to "indoctrinate" others in their beliefs -- pushing, through "court legislation", religions to marry them or lose tax-exempt status, schools to teach their union as normal or lose their government funding, and many other mandates.
Thus, I can't see anything else their fighting for other than legitimacy recognized by the state and the education system, which leads to "indoctrination".
4:09pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
4:49pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
This fight is not going away any time soon. I think yesterdays vote in California will be challenged(lawsuits are in the works) and it will go all the way to the U.S. supreme court. And after they rule it's unconstitutional to discriminate against a group of people, the fight will continue.
4:56pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
5:02pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
If we add their structure to this list, what will happen? Most on both sides feel (myself included) that it would lead to a legitimization of homosexuality; which many gays/lesbians want, and many conservatives don't. It's pretty simple to define what most informed people know about -- this isn't a "rights" issue, it's an education/ideological issue.
4:24pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
4:43pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
If you really feel it is okay, then you will pay for it in the next life. Life should not be based on your sexual prefference. It should be based on morals. No matter what you homos say, it is immorral for you to be homos. The rest of the PEOPLE recognize that, it's time you do too!
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By the way... Are any of these recommendations bad things? As I recall, Daniel in the Bible lived a health code his religion subscribed to as well. Perhaps you should condemn him also...
3:23pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
Quite the opposite is true. It is often discouraged.
The fact that some members drink caffeinated beverages, myself included, only demonstrates that some of us, are perhaps, weaker than the ideal saint. I know many that do not touch the stuff. I wish I could say the same.
3:28pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
3:47pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
Through the Prophet, the Lord gives us directions. But as members of the church, we are allowed to exercise our freedom. This is why I believe some of the LDS members will have mixed feelings about issues in the world. From moral issues, war, education, etc.
I question sometimes why it's so easy for most people in christianity to believe in the prophets of the Bible, but not believe in prophets of modern times. But then again, there were those in the Bible that also rejected and didn't believe them. And even then was Christ also rejected.
I'm not perfect in any way, but I try. And I respect other peoples opinions and beliefs.
BTW-I love cherry Pepsi!
3:46pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
If gay is wrong, so is polygamy right. So if polygamy was wrong, Joseph Smith was wrong, So he got everything right but that, huh. Why is every aspect of his life so important, except he couldn't be faithful. Yeah, I guess Joseph Smith knew all about love.
4:29pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
THE LDS CHURCH DOES NOT CONDONE POLYGAMY. POLYGAMY IS NOT A PART OF THE LDS RELIGION. ANY POLYGAMISTS OUT THERE ARE NOT A PART OF THE LDS CHURCH - IF THIS WAS DISCOVERED, THEY WOULD BE EXCOMMUNICATED.
Pretty sure everyone should stop holding that over the Church. Try to let go of the past. Times have changed. If you're going to condemn the Church for something you don't agree with, condemn them for something that is in practice today.
4:39pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
If times have changed, why hasn't the Bible?
6:41pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
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4:50pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
The problem is that the gay supporters are not standing up for and with the polygamy community. Why not support them in their alternative lifestyle. And if you are worried about underage marriage then just make all marriages, hetero, homo and plural 18+ only.
Why is noone fighting for human rights? I feel that the gay supporters have their own agenda and don't really care about the rights of everyone else. If I am wrong then I should obviously hear about all the people going to court in california to support polygamy. But I will bet I am not wrong.
5:23pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
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We know where the word "sodomy" comes from so expect it to be more prevalent in the last days. I have no doubt that tolerance and acceptance will only increase. I wish it weren't so, but I believe Isaiah.
4:51pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
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3:11pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
I have known plenty of gay people in my lifetime and they weren't bad, or had bad morals!
Now it doesn't mean I feel they should be able to get married, but it doesn't mean they are bad people!
3:26pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
If a man sleeps with different women whenever he wants, would you say he has good morals? Not likely.
8:35pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
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2:35pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
Every civilization has been plagued by homos trying to get acceptance. Homos may have right to try to get acceptance but most people who believe in natural sexuality have a right to call it what it is; Sick!
2:52pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
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8:57pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
But being Christ-like doesn't mean that you need to tolerate wickedness and immorality being pushed on you. In fact, I think it means the opposite - in your own life you need to stand up for God's values, principles, and morals against those who would try to tear them down, or try to make you do or think the wrong things.
Love others as your brothers and sisters, and hope that they will repent and try do what is right, but you are not obligated to let them force their immoral views and opinions on you.
1:27pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
1:38pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
Ironic, isn't it? A coalition means MANY banded together for a common cause, yet it was only the LDS who were accused of brain washing their membership, crossing the line separating church and state and otherwise butting in where they had no business. What of the other participants in this "coalition"? Where is the intolerance for them?
2:16pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
4:45pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
you can sort on amount ranking or search for a specific donor. Source was SFGATE dot COM
LDS Church definitely took the major hit and probably unfairly.......
1:38am - Thu Nov 06th, 2008
As for the calls we made a lot of them but we were calling as reps for the Yes on 8 campaign not members of the church. I never got a call either but according to the campaign I know there were millions of calls made, some by LDS people some by other church members.
I don't know anyone here in the church that would think, or say, for a minute that this success belonged to the LDS church, we were a small part of a huge effort and I know in our area there were dozens if not a couple hundred churches working on this together.
1:29pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
1:31pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
You're a jackass...
1:33pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
Your point or the point your trying to make is pretty lame if you ask me!
just my 2cents
1:47pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
No, let's pretend being gay means something else. Let's pretend the gay agenda of recruiting more gays through teaching homosexuality as "normal" and "acceptable" in our public schools.
Or alternatively, stay away from teaching my children gay perversions, keep your sexual behaviors private as I do mine, and then there won't be a problem.
1:53pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
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Are you married?
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2:03pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
Now the pro-gays will call you hateful names, accuse you of discrimination, and claim your lack of condoning their behavior is much worse than their own behavior.
Don't you know you're the immoral one--they have a right to express their views, teach their views in public schools, have gay parades all the while expecting those that disagree with them to be silent.
In other words, they would deny you your right to express your views while expecting you to allow them to fully express theirs.
1:39pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
And I know most of you will tell me not to let the door hit me on the way out, so I'll be sure to watch it as it closes. Good riddance.
1:41pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
Make sure you get severance from the church for submitting your resignation. What a dough head!!!
1:43pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
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1:58pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
Hello Kettle, Meet pot!
I am glad Duh has decided to leave the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He/She will probably be much happier, as will the others around him/her.
3:20pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
BTW, please dont judge me for judging Roger for judging Service for judging Ben for judging Uhh... for judging the LDS church for judging Gays for judging their unions as important as other's.
But if you do, please assign me a item that blackens on the stove and add your name to the disclaimer.
~~~Sarcasm~~~
3:59pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
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As far as how you were raised, you were obviously raised to make judgemental statements without knowing all the facts. Jeez, ain't it amazing when you point a finger at someone else, three other fingers are pointing right back at you. So get your finger out of your knows and stop making ignorant declarations.
2:14pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
I'm glad your method worked nicely for you and provided the closure you need. But I need to be mocked and ridiculed by faceless screen names on here to get my sense of closure. Keep up the good work guys!
2:24pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
2:32pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
But that also doesn't mean I won't strongly disagree with the church whenever they exert their influence to modify public policy. Let the individual members do that on their own.
2:47pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
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2:54pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
As for the church using its influence to modify public policy, I get what you are saying, but remember, that all groups, religious or secular, have a responsibility to inform their members where they stand on the issues. Some see this as the organization speaking up where they should not, but that is not the case. The good thing I have noticed about the church is that they make an announcement or statement from the pulpit and then they leave it up to the individual member to make up their own mind if they want to follow it or not. I know you'll probably disagree with that assertion, but we can agree to disagree.
As for this issue, there were several organizations that joined in the fight to ban same-sex marriages, so it really is out of line to single out the LDS Church in this. But hey, for a lot of people in the world, the LDS Church is the easiest target.
Peace
3:13pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
Remaining politically neutral is already becoming impossible for the church. As desirable as that may be, remaining neutral will only become more impossible. The political role of the church will only increase.
In the final days before the return of the Savior, the church will not only be a religious organization, it will be a governing organization.
Staying in the church will become more difficult as the world turns against us and things much worse than criticism evolve. Even the very elect will be deceived. Those that do not have a testimony based on witnesses from the Holy Spirit will leave the church. These things have been prophesied.
2:37pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
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2:15pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
And you should understand something. Human behavior vs what people have learned are two very different things. Like when I teach my kids how to behave, they know when I walk into a room they were doing something wrong, but they were doing it anyway because they are kids.
Adults are very much the same way in their actions. They might know better but emotions make people do weird things.
Regards.
2:40pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
However, I am mindful of Moroni's admonition, when he thought he was done writing:
Moroni 7:
47)But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.
48)Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.
Perhaps we should all try a little harder.
2:47pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
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1:51pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
But when the church works on molding public policy to that extent, that's the point where I no longer want to be involved. I've sat begrudgingly by while they voiced their opinions on alcohol and other issues locally, but still stayed steadfast.
Discrimination like this is beyond what I'm willing to put up with. I'm sure they'll miss the 0.0000013% of the budget my tithing contributed.
2:03pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
2:25pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
D&C 93:
39) And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth....
I feel it is a tragedy anytime someone leaves that once had a testimony.
However, it is best for the individual and the church when someone leaves that is unwilling to follow the principles that are sure to result in manifestations of the HG.
3:16pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
4:08pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
Gays are citizens just like anyone else and treating them as 2nd class is wrong. Restricting rights should only be done when the behaviour is criminal. You can view homosexuality as a sin, but it is not a crime and should not be punished. Let people handle crime, but let God handle sin, and we'll see how it plays out in the end.
---
Im going to guess that the rebuttles will go something like these:
"But Bro Rimmer, homosexuality is evil"
--That is your opinion. I bet you believe skipping Church on Sunday is evil too. Do you want the state to fine and punish the non-attending? (~~judging by the current liquor laws, a lot may ~~~)
"They have the same right as everyone else to marry someone of the opposite sex"
-- Well how convienent for you. Its kind of like 5 wolves and 1 sheep voting on whats for dinner. Great day to be a wolf. While you're at it lets revoke all marriages of Non-LDS. It works for the majority of the state.
2:26pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
Are you sure?
I can’t believe folks are not marveling in the irony: the largest donor to define marriage as between one man and one woman is a church. Whose founder was murdered because he believed, and founded this same church on the belief, that the only way to the celestial kingdom (heaven) is through having multiple wives.
A hundred years changes the definition of persecution.
2:36pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
2:50pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
It's not even close to "a woman and a woman" or "a man and a man."
3:51pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
What does that matter you ask? – I’m merely pointing out, the members of today’s LDS church are feeling the same feelings as those who murdered your founding prophet. They are acting in much the same manner as the mobs from Missouri who started with outlawing folks who didn’t believe in the non-traditional family. When these mobs were unable to neither change the laws nor change the hearts of the wicked Mormons they resorted to killing the head of the church.
How much farther are you willing to go, and how does it feel knowing you are in the same shoes as those who murdered your prophet?
3:12pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
There are a very few churches (most that have split off from the mainstream of their sect) that have recognized and/or performed same-sex marriages. However, they are in the minority. Almost every mainstream religion you can identify refuses to recognize a marriage between adults of the same gender. I just want to know why everyone is so quiet when it comes to that. Ask most any Baptist, Pentecost, Nazarene, Catholic, Methodist, Four-Square, or any other full gospel church how they define marriage.
One other thought...if you think that the church teaches that the only way to the celestial kingdom is through having multiple wives...you missed part of the lessons.
3:58pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
Name one other church that was founded on the basis of the non-traditional family and now supports defining what marriage means.
9:15pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
Plural marriage only ever applied in very limited circumstances, and is not nor ever has been taught by the church as something we have to do in this life to go to heaven. Don't try to make it look like it's all the church is or was about or something.
5:28pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
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3:43pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
If the dog likes it, what's the harm? Dare we discriminate against bestiality?
Though I'm being sarcastic, there are people that think this is okay, and now they are united through the internet and are able to encourage each other and assure one another that the way "they" think is acceptable, even natural for a man that really loves his dog.
As absurd as this sounds, widespread acceptance of homosexuality was once considered nearly as absurd. And that day was not so long ago.
4:33pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
You are sounding more and more like them – that hatred you feel is the same hatred that murdered your prophet.
9:24pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
He has written a lot on this board, and I have not read anything he has written yet that was hateful in any way.
Calling people hateful just because you disagree with them and they stand up for their ideas and defend them is just juvenile. It also shows an inability to argue effectively against what he has said.
Do you really think Tommy Gun is so full of hate he is going to organize a drunken mob and try to kill someone? You're being ridiculous and offensive trying to make that kind of comparison.
7:05am - Thu Nov 06th, 2008
Tommy’s attempt to dehumanize his opponents is hatful, even if your blinders don’t allow you to see it. The folks who murdered the LDS churches founding prophet were nothing more than Christians who believed the LDS church was attacking the traditional family (sounds familiar doesn’t it). And getting to the point of murdering the prophet started with dehumanizing the Mormons.
My point is the LDS church and its members are on the same path taken by good Christians who wound up killing their founding prophet – don’t you see the irony of the fact that the church and its members are supporting a law that its founding prophet would have been in violation of?
3:29pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
Why not have members in Washington organize against the assisted suicide proposition?
Why not have members in Colorado organize to support the definition of life beginning at conception proposition which could have prevented many types of abortion?
1:45pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
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But I'm quite confident that I will not be going to hell, Mormon or not. And if I'm wrong, when both of us pass on, you are more than welcome to find me in the afterlife and tell me "Told you so!" to my face.
2:14pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
3:10pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
So why aren't homosexuals satisfied that society has granted them civil union, shared benefits, and every other benefit of marriage other than the title "marriage?"
BECAUSE that's NOT what it's about, Service. Because marriage is a LEGAL term, through which they wish to impose their deviancy on the rest of society, and FORCE us to accept it and condone it, by force of law. It's about changing the very fabric of society, and people do NOT want to see marriage turned into a mockery.
You go ahead and use whatever reasons you need to hate religion, but in your heart you also know what is right and what isn't.
Homosexuality is not right. It never will be.
4:05pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
2:17pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."
Hebrews 13:4
"Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge."
If you take the scriptures as the word of God, it's pretty clear his words haven't been twisted about homosexuality or the sanctity of marriage.
I'm pretty sure it won't be me telling you "I told you so", as it won't be me you'll have to face.
2:05pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
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1:39pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
The best two paragraphs are:
"Allegations of bigotry or persecution made against the Church were and are simply wrong. The Church's opposition to same-sex marriage neither constitutes nor condones any kind of hostility toward gays and lesbians. Even more, the Church does not object to rights for same-sex couples regarding hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights, so long as these do not infringe on the integrity of the traditional family or the constitutional rights of churches."
"Some, however, have mistakenly asserted that churches should not ever be involved in politics when moral issues are involved. In fact, churches and religious organizations are well within their constitutional rights to speak out and be engaged in the many moral and ethical problems facing society. While the Church does not endorse candidates or platforms, it does reserve the right to speak out on important issues."
No doubt, this issue will not go away and it will be on future ballots.
1:41pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
Nice job people....what a great win in the fight against Satan and his followers! At least something good happened yesterday. Yay us!
1:51pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
(sarcasm)
1:54pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
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4:22pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
All of which have been directly related to what happened yesterday, unlike your post.
4:34pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
I am a trader, and agree that the stock market volatility has been at an extreme. But you are also extremely naive to think that todays 500 point plunge had nothing to do with Obama's win.
The recent volatility has been tied directly to the "news of the day." Todays drop has everything to do with Obama.
He has promised to increase corporate taxes.
4:55pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
I would suggest that it is a continuation of a trend, although Obama's election may have been responsible for a percentage of the change.
Of course, there's not really any way to know for sure.
8:26pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
1:53pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
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Or is your special blend of vile venom reserved for only members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
4:20pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
4:26pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
Moongirl, I guess you missed my point. The real question is can any group of people agree with each other and not be accused of being blind sheep? According to many on the KSL message boards, that term can only be applied to republicans and LDS faithful.
2:08pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
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That was an easy one. Give me another question! :-)
4:51pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
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Just wondering how "personally" you knew your friend.
Most LDS people realize their worlds are not perfect, but to sterotype your "friends" clientele as Bishops and high ranking officials in the church is spurious.
Not saying some have not chosen this life style, but the #'s would not be as you represent.
4:03pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
3:05pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
listen from someone who had a daddy just like you. he tried to shove this religion down my throat and i bit into it, until i learned for myself that i have a brain that functions and makes my own decisions.
prepare yourself for that day, it will come. especially to those mormons raised in utah. maybe 2 out of the 25 youth my age stayed true to your "teachings" pray that your kids will follow blindly with those kind of statistics.
your naive if you think they are going to agree with you for the rest of their lives
1:50pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
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2:07pm - Wed Nov 05th, 2008
In the most liberal State in the western United States the people upheld the definition of marriage.
We can celebrate the fact that the meaning has not been muddied; the separation of church and state will remain intact, and thus the constitution, for the time being at least; and that the moral majority stood on voting day in spite of the barrage of misinformation that was propagated upon them.
Those of us with true love in our hearts don’t forget the disappointment of the other side. But we do realize that those feelings are a consequence of their actions and choices. Someday we may feel the pain of defeat on this issue… I suspect someday it will happen. . . but not today.
TODAY IS A GOOD DAY!
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10:07am - Mon Nov 17th, 2008