Touche Nothing worse than trying to sway others to support your point of view.

Isn't that what the gay rights groups are doing right now?

In Massachusetts . . . . . @B B. - isn't gay marriage legal?

If I recall, that makes it OK to teach gay marriage in public school without the permission of the parent or guardian.

Since the gay religion can do that, I say bring back all religious discussion in public schools.

If you don't think the gay point of view is a religion, I beg to differ.
Sk8boy

Atheism... @Sk8boy - ...is the only "politically correct" religion to the radical left.

Atheism is a Religion @TheLastLaugh - And Bald is a hair color. Most radical leftists are into the "Jesus was a Liberal " mantra thus they are not atheists at all.

Athiesm has a National holiday - April 1st @Ned McHaggis - In other words, April fools day.

Finally we get a holiday @Sambecks C. - About time! All those religious holidays, it was really unfair for centuries

Gay support group @Daveyr - I heard they were calling themselves the Queerum of the 70.

That's funny, Mr. McDougal, if not @Muskrat McDougal - very original.

They actually call themselves Affirmation, and are teamed with the Gamofites, Family Fellowship, LDS Reconciliation and Gay LDS Young Adults.

Each of these groups is dedicated to erasing the stigma held by the LDS Church that gays are somehow inferior, and to ensure that all God's children are entitled to an equal and just treatment....both in their place(s) of worship, and under the laws of the land.

Some of my neighbors are lesbian. @Big Love - Some of nicest people you could meet, maybe if I was blinded by religious bigotry I would hate them but we party together and get along pretty well regardless of them being gay.

Billy Jack @Billy_Jack - I have a frind who is gay and have nothing against him as a person. But I do not approve of the act of intimacy outside the bonds a marriage between a man and woman. The LDS church teaches to condemn actions, not the people. You are accusing religions of hating people, which isnt always the case. If you go back and search LDS leaders talks on this issue you wouldn't be connecting the LDS church with "religious bigotry".

"condemn actions, not the people" @PIZZAMAN - So, are you sitting in their homes watching the "action"? If not, then you arent affected by it!! So shut the h.e.l.l. up about it! Damnn Mormons!!

Shut like the LDS to have there nose into everyones business!

Do the LDS gays come to your church on sunday and suck face all day! I thought not!!!

gays @Billy_Jack - The argument isn't whether gays are nice people or not. The argument is whether gay marriage should be allowed, and what affects it will have on society.

Gays say that this won't come into the schools. Here is proof that it is already:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/10/10/MNFG13F1VG.DTL

That's right folks - a first grade field trip to a lesbian wedding.

Freaking unbelievable. And lots more to come if gay marriage is allowed.

@BD - I figure Im apart of society and it hasnt affected me or my family, but I can see it is doing a number on you mormons!!!

And taking a field trip to a lesbian wedding was easier than going to a mormon wedding, they didnt need a temple recommend to get in!!!

and your point is? @Spreading the Hate - i dont get it spreading the hate..what is your point? or did you forget to make one? so what if you need a temple recommend to get in? the LDS religion takes the marriage covenant seriously and they see the temple as the house of God. It is a holy and clean place. Not everyone can go in so what? If you don't believe in the ordinances performed there than it shouldnt matter to you anyway! :-)

So what billy @Billy_Jack - Billy, you are blinded you just don't know it. See I am 100% against homosexuality, I believe it to be wrong in everysense. I too have friends that are gay, even relatives, not many just a few. I laugh with them, I go to family get togethers with them. I however hate the choice they have made. They also know that I do not agree with their choice and they respect that. They know that I like them but not what they do. I am able to be this way because of religion. It is because I am taught that I must love one another but can do so and hate sin. It is because of religion that I can clearly see the difference.

You my friend are blind, you are blind because you chose to be.

Rama, you're a liar...... @ramadi05 - You obviously don't have any gay friends when you say "I don't agree with their CHOICES". If you actually knew any gay people, you would know it's NOT a choice.

Answer this....do you remember the exact moment you decide to be heterosexual?

It's because of your religion you're blinded! You're blinded because you choose to view the world through garment covered glasses.

JC @JC Holmes - Wow, did you look in your crystal ball JC and see who my friends are. My wife's uncle has been living with the same man for over 35 years. They come to all our family reunions. Both were once married and both served missions. I work with another guy who is also gay. I know that it is hard for you too understand that not everything is okay. I know that it is a huge threat to you when you have no accuse or argument.

JC I know this, God said it was an abomination and who am I to go agaisnt the will of God. So until God changes his mind I wont mine.

But lets discuss this idea of being born a certian way. As an expert in criminology I have spent much time studying deviant behavior. If you are going to apply the logic you just used "being born that way" then we have to apply to those who desire the company of animals, or adults and children.

So again, JC your are blind, you are so blind that no matter what anyone says you will not allow yourself to see the light.

You have no credibility...... @ramadi05 - At least none with me. Try not to point out the fault in someone's point of view when yours come directly out of the "bishop's handbook".

God says? @ramadi05 - How do we know God says it's wrong?

Churches say that God says it's wrong, but I've never had God pop down to me and say "That's wrong...stop it!"

You've heard man say that God says it's wrong.

You've read books written by man, passed off as God's word saying it's wrong.

When God says it's wrong, I'll listen - but I won't listen to men who say it's wrong just because they THINK God says it is.

Prophets my friend @smyr2001 - God speaks through prophets, that is how he has always done it. How many scriptures would you like to reference regarding what God has said? My guess is it won't matter to you.

Anyway he speaks through prophets, the prophets have clearly stated it is wrong but God himself has said it as well you just don't want to listen.

I think you missed the point. @ramadi05 - For people who did not voluntarily choose your faith as you did, it's quite plainly a bunch of lies. Sorry for being so blunt.

You wouldn't believe me if I told you Zeus speaks directly to me and guided my hand in writing a book you must obey. It's not a challenging concept, I'm sure you must understand. That's why collectively we call it a faith and not a fact.

Please realize that I'm not telling you that your beliefs are wrong or misplaced in any way. I'm just saying that they are YOUR beliefs, not universal beliefs or facts.

Mormons and even Christian based faiths only represent a fraction of the faiths available. We have no choice but to co-exist. Please remember to exercise tolerance, it's much better than the alternative.

A Percentage of Homosexuals Are Born ......... @JC Holmes - ...... with same sex inclinations. A percentage of homosexuals have voluntarily chosen their lifestyle. The word "gay" means happy, and based on the number of homosexuals that take their own lives I question that term.

Is it possible... @Rifleman - ...that even one of these suicides was the result of undue persecution?

Beyond that, I don't think "Gay" is a term they gave themselves. I suspect it was a derogatory label given to them. I could be wrong, but at least I'm not afraid to admit it.

It wasn't original @Big Love - I stole it from Appalachian McHero, who stole it from Ernie Woo who stole it from Cletus McCooter.

@Big Love - If you don't understand by now that it isn't the person it is the sin that people don't like. I've never heard the LDS church say anything about gays being inferior. I think if these groups would listen to them they would know that if they really want to know what the church says. The LDS church will always love all people, but like the rest of the world they don't have to love the sin and that is what homosexuallity is a sin.

@Big Love - These groups have a right to work for their cause and should be respected for it. They should also respect the church and its members for working for their cause.

Big love @Big Love - First, if [removed] and the Church is aware then you are no longer LDS because you will be excomunicated. So saying Gay LDS Young adulst isn't accurate.

Now lets talk about the "stigma held by the LDS church" as you say. First of all the stigma comes from God not the Church. It is God that clearly labeled Homosexuality as an 'ABOMINATION". So let's be clear, the church does not view homosexuality with anyother feeling that it being an abomination. Second lets clearly define what the church feels. See the church cares greatly for these people, they loath however homosexuality. See they hate the sin not the sinner.

The church has every right to stand out against homosexuality and work to defeat it in any way.

Thank you, ramadi05, for the reply, @ramadi05 - but permit me my own.
The group who calls themselves Gay LDS Young Adults, whether accurate or not, is what they've chosen to be called.....take your disagreement(s) up with them.

God has never told me that homosexuality is an abomination, though I've no doubt you can recite chapter and verse from both the Book of Mormon and the Bible, (both translated by humans, btw), "proving" that God feels that way....a pointless debate.

Finally, while I concur that the LDS Church has a right to petition governments for an amendment against same-sex marriage, so too does the gay community have a right to petition the Church for acceptance.

May the best petition win.

Big Love @Big Love - By that rational. The Catholic church should be able to petition the right for their priests to molest the alter boys right? After all homosexuality, judging by your comments is ok. Why shouldn't that be accepted? Really it is the same concept except for the age difference. Most normal people would consider that an abomination. If you are a heterosexual man and you happen to be 35 or 40 years old and you marry a younger girl, say 18 years old, poeple would accept that. If you were a homosexual man 35 to 40 yrs. old and you were "living" with another man 18 yrs. old. Society would want you locked up. Why do you suppose that is? I don't understand how people think that homosexuality is ok. I also don't understand why gays feel that everyone should accept it. Religion aside, just the fact that the only way to procreate is between a man and a woman, should be a huge clue as to their confusion. I am totally against homosexuality, but I do not try to force gays to accept my beliefs. The LDS church has never said that gays are inferior nor have they treated them that way. They just do not agree with their choices.

Wow, crane guy, how did @crane guy - you arrive at your conclusion that Catholic priests want the right to molest?...or that Catholic priests are the only priesthood holders who molest?

You claim to be "totally against homosexuality", but then you "try not to force them to accept your beliefs", yet by barring them the benefits of marriage, as you beliefs dictate, you're forcing them to accept your beliefs.

Listen, I don't care for homosexuals, nor would it affect me in any way whether or not they're permitted to marry.

I simply fail to see how it would affect you.

Big love @Big Love - Big Love, God actually has told you that it is a sin, you chose to not believe it. If you don't believe in the bible then fine, but if you do then he has told you.

But don't be fooled by the real intent of these groups as they are not really looking for acceptance into the church. See that is a front they use, they, as a group, have no interest in the churhc but they do recognize the influence of the church. They know that the only way to be successfull in Utah is the get the church to soften it's stance. This is why. Being that the majority of legislaters in Utah are LDS getting them to pass legislation that goes against their moral beliefs is almost impossible. But what if the Church took this stance, "though we as a religion are opposed to homosexuality we feel it is not the place for government to restrict people based on that". Or something to the effect, well then maybe the same sex marraige issue would pass in Utah. See these groups only want a statement from the Church softening is stance so they can get what they want.

It is not going to happen, ever.

This is not, ramadi, a debate @ramadi05 - on the validity, or lack thereof, of the Bible, nor a time to "invoke" God into lawmaking.

Mankind is capable of making and enforcing laws with or without God's consent, (whichever God is prevalent) and that's exactly what the citizens of California will do come November 4th.

As for Utah, you're likely correct....it is not, ever, going to happen.

Laws are the Result of Peoples Core Values @Big Love - The vast majority of laws are based on the law makers (in a democracy the peoples) core values.
This is true of environmental laws, anti violence laws, or laws based on human contact.
When laws aren't part of peoples core values, they are either the tyrants core values and must be enforces by draconian measures; or there are no laws anarchy prevails and might makes right.

If Christians buy into the arguement that there core values aren't valid in influencing the laws they vote for then they are foolishly disenfranchising themselves.

Christians have just as much right to vote for prop 8 as Athiest have to vote against it.

Okay what ever happen to common sense... @Big Love - Hello go ahead take God out of this and think about it. Why in the world would you be born GAY? There is no reason behind it. Two Males can not reproduce neither can to females. If you want to take God out of this then us your common sense.

I believe there is a God. I believe he has told us that Homosexuality is a sin. Love the sinner but not the sin. The Bible is Gods words as long as it is translated correctly. And the Book of Mormon is the word of God.

Who was it that voted disagree.. @Pam Ann - Are you really disagreeing on using common sense? Come on. We were all born with common sense. I have never seen two Male rabbits give birth. Common sense people.

Who Voted inappropriate... @Pam Ann - I don't think its inappropriate to use common sense. We were all born with common sense. There is no reason behind being born GAY. Two Males can not reproduce and neither can to females. Again where is your common sense?

I wouldn't call it a stigma... @Big Love - I would say that these groups are claiming that they are trying to "erase the stigma held by the LDS church that gays are somehow inferior", but in reality they are trying to change the doctrine of the LDS church in order to accomidate themselves. Any person who chooses to be "gay" has thus decided that the doctrines of the LDS faith are incongruent with their lifestyle, so what gives them the right to change doctrines? I figure that if the doctrines of a church don't match your lifestyle and you aren't willing to comform to those doctrines, then do something else. Don't sit and moap that they won't condone the behavior that you've adopted.

Queerum of the 70. @Muskrat McDougal - And who said you dont have gays in your church?

Sounds to me like they are running the LDS church! ahaha

Excuse Me, But... @Muskrat McDougal - You CANNOT be gay and a practicing Latter Day Saint. It's "physically" impossible. Sorry to disappoint you all.


'Tail.

I have to agree. @Hardtaill - I've often wondered how or why a homosexual would feel compelled to be part of the LDS or any religion that considers them similarly.

I can only guess that they were born into the church and indoctrinated to its beliefs so solidly that they can't separate.

Talk about being between a rock and a hard place...

Ultimately, I agree, homosexuals have no place in your religion and you should not have to accommodate them in any way. However, in public decisions, tolerance needs to be exercised.

Best wishes.

Fear??? @Sambecks C. - The story states: "Olin Thomas, executive director of Affirmation, says The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is using fear to sway voters."

Fear??? Oh, yeah. Last week during General Conference, President Monson wore a Darth Vader mask during one of his talks. Everybody thought it was a gag until he started swinging a light sabre. At that point, the Mormon Tabernacle Choir started humming the Darth Vader theme.

Give me a break, Affirmation. DON'T BE SO DRAMATIC!!!

Politically correct or not . . . . . . @TheLastLaugh - it is their religion.

My dictionary defines religion as: A pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.

There are other definitions included, but this one suits my point.
Sk8boy

Take out your money and read what it says @TheLastLaugh - This country was not found on atheism and it would not be the same country if it were. What some want is precisely the opposite of anything religious and if they don't get it they claim they are being discriminated against.

Money, Dcn? @Dcnielsen - This country wasn't founded on money, and if your intention was the phrase In God We Trust, the motto first appeared on a United States coin in 1864, (some 80-90 years after our founding).

Your point? @Big Love - You knew what I meant and it was not until then that the US actually started to mint money. Before that it was a bank institution which varied and was unreliable. Take more looks and you will see this country is founded upon the belief in God (the division of religion and state was it does not clarify who/what that god is).

Are You Stupid???? @Sk8boy - Gay is not a religion. And all churches are cults untill accepted by mainstream society.

Re: Are you Stupid @ghostpanther - I have to laugh at the ignorance and lack of education of the people who disagree with your comment. If we look back at ancient Rome, we will see that Christianity was treated as a cult with many Christians being executed by the Roman state. It wasn't until Roman Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity did it gain legitimacy under the protection of Roman law. It is true that all churches are treated as cults until they gain some sort of legitimacy under civil law or among a large portion of a population.

You really need to educate yourself before you use words to try to correct someone. @ghostpanther - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

note definition #4
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

Is homosexuality not a cause? If not, why do homosexuals need a rainbow flag or bumper sticker to show their belief system to everyone on the road? Why is there something called "gay pride".

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cult

Cult

1: formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2: a system of religious beliefs and ritual ; also : its body of adherents
3: a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious ; also : its body of adherents
4: a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator 5 a: great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book) ; especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b: the object of such devotion c: a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

The size of the following of a particular idea or practice does not mean something is no longer a “cult”. For those who prefer that lifestyle Homosexuality is a cult, but so is Heterosexuality as well. Those people who aren’t part of organized religion can also be considered a cult.

teaching gay marriage in schools @Sk8boy - I think you are right sk8boy. I saw this interesting video the other day about what is going on in massachusetts with the education of gay marriage. If you support gay marriage you won't be upset by what is happening but if you don't you will be concerned. Either way it is worth watching. If you are wondering how making gay marriage will effect your family personally watch this video and you will see it does.
http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1352578267/bctid1784521903

Video does raise concerns @taking 5 - I watched the video from the brightcove link and it does raise concerns to those who are following all the activities going on with Prop 8 in California.

Thanks for sharing it with us.

@Sk8boy - I believe that when California's laws are passed, the rest of the country sees what the out come will be. That is why this is such a big deal.

@Sonny W. - The other reason that this is being watch so closely, if you are married legally than you can adopt children. Whether you agree with the rights of gay people or not this is an issue.

People claim the god, Buddha, natural selection, and so forth, made them gay. Then my argument is then you were not equipped to reproduce. Thus making you disqualified for being a parent.

Adoption by gays, Sonny, is @Sonny W. - already perfectly legal, and probably more prevalent than you'd like to believe.

The fact that a gay couple cannot "reproduce" leaves them with few choices to have children.
Adoption is one choice, artificial insemination with a surrogate may be another, but legalizing gay marriage has little to do with adoption.

Sonny W. @Sonny W. - So does that mean that straight couples that are not able to reproduce, they shouldn't be able to be parents? And what about those kids that are being adopted, are they not allowed to have parents if their biological ones passed away or were not able to keep them for one reason or another?

Your logic is flawed. @Sk8boy - If "the gay religion" is actually a religion, and not just citizens wanting equal rights, they could perform legally recognizable marriages that every state would have to recognize.

"Article the third [Amendment I]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." -The Bill of Rights

Whether or not a kid is taught about it in school or not, if he is gay, he is gay. I don't think the school should be teaching about marriage anyway. What is the point?

If you want "gay" PEOPLE to be universally recognized as being part of a religion, then you better be willing to accept the legal rights guaranteed by The Bill of Rights.

If you are against legal gay marriage; then the last thing you want to go is call it a religion.

@Sk8boy - i started to read this story and then i thought DOES ANYONE REALLY CARE? sorry for shouting in cap's. i am not LDS and i don't belive this load of crap. they can do what ever they want. but i don't want to hear about it or have it shoved down my throat.

Why Not Ban Gay Activists? @B B. - I can't think of a group that encourages people to think and promote a higher level of bigotry and hate in America today! We don't have to accept one being a deviate and a pervert. These people are bigoted because they are far from being normal.

While we are in a banning mood @TheLastLaugh - Door to door religion... Nothing erks me more. I hate being woken up have to answer the door to find someone smiling in a white shirt and tie asking me if I go to church. Although they usually do leave immediately because I always answer to the door bell stark naked. (My friends know to knock.)

But still these A- holes keep waking me up. As if I don't know where to find a church in Utah.

I say ban them. I'm tired of them... I never want to be woken up by them again.

They should ban all religion @littleloomy - I hate people bugging me because of some 2000 year old made up religion. Heck even Beer is about 10,000 years older than Christianity. Maybe we should worship Beer. At least there's proof it exist.

I like your thinking, ghostpanther, as the @ghostpanther - worship of beer sounds very reasonable.
I think it was one of our more esteemed "founding fathers" (Ben Franklin) that once said:
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."

I love beer @Big Love - Mmmmmmm. Beer.

Marriage @littleloomy - Why God invented Bars.

THE 3 RINGS OF MARRIAGE....... @ghostpanther - ..Engagement Ring

..Wedding Ring

....And The

...SUFFERING!!!!!

huh @littleloomy - Beer tastes like what I imagine horse pee tasting like! Nasty! Anything that requires you to "aquire" a taste for it is something I don't want to try.

So we can assume.... @Redbaron13 - - you know what beer tastes like, in which case you're a sinner,

- at some point, you've imbibed horse pee, which makes you a freak.

Leave the beer drinkers alone, I say, persecute the people who drink horse pee!!!

why @Tomster - is someone you knows what beer tastes like a sinner?

only @B P. - in Utah.

You must be a visitor here.

Beer @Big Love - When it's warm it tastes real crappy,
But cold beer will make me happy.

sad... @oliver clothesoff - that the only way you can be happy is by taking steps to become completely incoherent.

Not really... @PIZZAMAN - I think oliver was saying that cold beer tastes better than warm beer, by using a clever arrangement of words. Kind of like a cold coke tastes better than warm to most folk.

That'll be $4.20, please. Due to the economy being what it is, I now charge when I have to explain simple posts.

You DO realize this is a church owner website, right.. @ghostpanther - Go drink your God and than operate heavy machinery, moron.

And which, jbancr2, of the @jbancr2 - Ten Commandments contains the words: "Thou Shalt Not Enjoy a Beer"?

Thats easy BL @Big Love - It's the one that says "You shall have no other gods before me".
Is beer still your God?

Good one, my dear, sweet IDGI, but notice @IDGI - I said "enjoy" a beer, not "worship" one (or six).

No, sweet stuff, I consider beer to be akin to sacramental wine....something to be revered, honored and consumed with reverence.

Some have equated beer with the Nectar of the Gods....a tad extreme, in my opinion, but not too far off.

You've been known to ingest a brew on occasion IDGI, and I consider you one of God's masterpieces.

Call me.

Are you @jbancr2 - talking down about my new god (Beer)? Do you not like my new religion (Worship beer)? You have better watch your tongue jbancr2. There have been wars started for less.

Church of Beer @ghostpanther - European purity laws dictate that if a brewer advertises "Since 1648" or whatever other date, the brewery must have used the same yeast since that time. That means keeping that exact yeast alive for all that time... through wars, plagues, famines, natural disasters, fires, etc... A new yeast is technically a new beer. This shows so much dedication, we should worship their hard work. I recently had a pint in Idaho that was a brew since 1016 - The Holy Grail!!!!

true true However @Don Hosmer - How many times has the Bible changed in the past 1600 yrs? So technically every time the bible changes it should in fact be a "New Religion."

So the Bible has changed a time or two... Things happen. But it is still basically christianity. Same with beer. Yeast changes (Thats actually easy to control compared to the other four ingreadients) Hops, barley, and water will also change. But it's beer, It's wonderful, and we love it so dearly.

I say make MY religion tax-exempt. My religion is beer. Beer should be Tax-exempt... Now who is with me!?

I would assume... @littleloomy - that you and Jack Daniels have a strong relationship as well? Enjoy your alcoholic lifestyle but please stay off the road. That's all I ask. If you want to drink with the rest of your queer friends, that's your business but keep your alcoholic sodomite meetings behind closed doors.

jbancr2 @jbancr2 - Wow. Me thinks you missed the memo sent out by the church concerning tolerance. I have a copy...should I send it on to you?

@littleloomy - That is why we have the Book of Mormon, to clarify changes in the bible lost in translation. One of these days you should let those two in white shirts in. Wait you may not want to do that because they could be right and you aren't interested in that.

Yea it does bother me sometimes . . . . @littleloomy - when those J Dub's show up a the most inconvenient moment.

I hear 'ya, Sk8boy, especially when @Sk8boy - they call themselves "elder" when they're obviously in their early twenties/late teens.

Do the Jahovah's Witnesses (J Dub's) . . . . . . @Big Love - have a position in their church with the title of "Elder"?

It's spelled 'Jehovah', Sk8boy, and while @Sk8boy - I'm not privy to the names/ranks they assign their members/leaders, I'd assume that those members/leaders who have endured a sufficient amount of time could indeed be labeled as elders.

I'm also not sure that the good folks who adhere to the Jehovah's Witness beliefs appreciate your calling them "J Dubs", any more than Mormons would enjoy being called "Mo Mo's", our any other derogatory name directed at any other religious group.

The Jehovah's Witness people are very adept at missionary work, (door-to-door preaching), as it seems to be their primary means of gaining membership.

I give them a polite, but curt, "no thank you" when they come calling, whether at a convenient time or not.

poor baby @littleloomy - If you would get out of bed before noon and do something productive, you wouldn't be 'awaken' by people trying to do good.

I say, ban from society, lazy A's who sleep 12 hours a day.

M.L. @M L. - Boy are you judgmental and assume ALOT. How do you know that he does not work graveyards? If he works graveyards, gets off work at 7am, should he be awake for the day at 9am? I don't think so.

And NOTHING in his post suggested that he was in bed after noon or for 12 hours. You do know that missionairies for all religions that have them DO go door-to-door in the mornings as well, right?

I had this same issue when I worked graveyards. And they were very rude to me when I said I was sleeping. One even suggested I put a sign on the door saying "day sleeper" - which people could interpret to: come back tonight while I am gone and steal everything.

Not everyone is a day person. Many work graveyards or swings. You are very pious on your pedestal there.

That explains... @littleloomy - ...all the vomit on your doorstep!

LOL

little.... your name says it all! @littleloomy - If you don't want to have your door knocked on between 10AM-8PM, just put a sign on it saying so... or move to Siberia where you can sleep all summer.

littleloomy @littleloomy - They probably leave real quick because of your litteloomy.

I'm LDS ... @B B. - and I'm criticizing the LDS Leadership. I know I'm not supposed to think for myself. However this is wrong. Your born gay and that the way God made you. I'd rather see to gay people who really love each other get married rather than stupid 19 and 21 y/old kids get married after dating two months.

Plus... @Slappy123 - Why do people care if two gays get married? There not hurting anyone. I've been working with a gay man for over 5 years and guess what...he's a great guy who has never bothered anyone. And also he's been with his partner longer than most LDS people have been married.

Absolutely @Slappy123 - And I've got a neighbor who used to be a Mormon bishop and now has a long-term relationship with another gay man. And both are delightful men and neighbors. I have a son too and never worry a moment about it.

Daveyr..... @Daveyr - Why is it that everytime a former Mormon bishop makes a mistake or turns away from following the doctrines of the church that people point to it as if it proves a point. Former bishops are just like the rest of us who are imperfect and are sinners who are subject to our own set of temptations though I admit I feel it is greater tragedy in my own mind when I hear such stories of former bishops. While not every pedophile is gay, it is true that a disproportionate number of pedophiles perpetrate their sexual fantasies on juvenile members of the same sex. Still, its right not to assume that every gay man or woman is a pedophile, but given the percentage of pedophiles who are gay, it would be a wise parent to still hold some caution.

Hey, wank, read what I said @swank - I didn't say it makes the church invalid and I didn't say he is a sinner. Based on what I know of him he was probably a good member and a good Bishop. But the best are probably on the outside having outgrown an institution that perpetuates oppression and stereotypes. Swanker.

You shouldn't pick and choose.. @Slappy123 - which parts of the gospel you are going to live if you are really LDS. Blasphemy is only detrimental to yourself. You would be wise to read what revelation the world has received through the prophets, about being gay, and why it is a temptation that some may have, that needs to be avoided just like any other sin.

Janna W @Janna W. - I choose to think for myself. And I feel the church is wrong on this issue. Testimony comes from feelings and this is how I feel. I know you choose not to think for your self Janna and that's okay. There is 6 billion people on the earth and only 11 million LDS people. We need to be tolerent of others beliefs and lifestyles. Again, I'd rather see two gay people who really love each other get married rather than stupid 19 and 21 y/old kids get married after dating two months.

This is arrogance @Slappy123 - It doesn't matter what you think you will not change the outcome. The only thing that matters is what God thinks and you should be trying to find out what that is. Because everything and everybody will be judged by Him.

You're probably right, 51dirt, but the @51dirtbp - problem lies in who gets to "deliver" the thoughts of God?

You?
Me?
Mr. Monson?
The Pope?
Mr. McCain?
Mr. Obama?
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?

You see, 51dirt, it's likely that every person I mentioned will give you a differing opinion of what God thinks, and none of them can prove themselves right.

9 out of 10 @Big Love - Actually, at least 9 out of the 10 of those all stated that Marriage should be between one man and one woman. The only one I am not sure of would be you. :)

Really, Ace74? @Ace74 - Mr. Obama said that?

Hmmm....now I may have to vote for him.

Yes he did.... But @Big Love - At the event at Saddleback Church here in California he stated that Marriage should be between a man and a woman and that civil unions are sufficient for same-sex couples.

But... What I don't undertand is that after he stated this, why he is still against Prop 8. I think he worries about offending those he needs votes from.

During the Vice-Presidential debate, Sen. Joe Biden stated this as well that Neither himself or Obama support gay marriage.

Segment from Vice-Presidential debate @Ace74 - Here is the link to the video where both Biden and Palin were asked about gay marriage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4nTCCwOCuo

Hey slappy @Slappy123 - I have always been patiently irritated by people such as you who espouse the ideal that we need to be tolerant with an argument that is otherwise intolerant. While I agree that we must all be tolerant of each other, and I say this with the experience of having a son and brother who are homosexual, you need to understand that being tolerant does not mean that you put your own feelings and beliefs aside, but rather respectfully disagree when disagreement exists. Slappy I feel that you showed in essence exactly what the problem is with those who truly do not understand tolerance and MUTUAL respect as demonstrated when you showed a blatant example of intolerance and unkindness with your slam against "19 and 21 year olds who get married after two months". As one who falls into that category myself at least in part, and who has been happily married for 22 years, I find your comments to be both arrogant, rude and ....intolerant.

Yeah don't be selective @Janna W. - Flush the whole church. I did. A big money and time saver. Plus I get to tease my Mormon friends and family members and their silly ways such as those demonstrated on this topic. For example, notice how Mormons [removed] for hate. So gay for corporations and so gay for old authority figures!

wait @Janna W. - From everything I have read on this, it is not against the Church to "be gay", just to act on those urges.

And you should not pick and choose either. Your post shows your holier-than-thou attitude.

Born that way... @Slappy123 - If we follow your "logic" then pedophiles are born that way and it is inhumane to expect them to deny that.

People are so stupid, and follow everything they are told...the next underpriveledged group will be NAMBLA who will want equal rights to practice their beliefs...and the idiots in this nation will give it to them.

Sick Logic @AI - from what i have read most pedofiles are straight and not gay. so i fail to understand what being pedofile has to do with being gay. it seems like JUST ANOTHER PLOY TO influence people to hate gays. i am not GAY, but my GOD does not teach hatred and perscution for being gay, MY GOD TEACHES LOVE AND RESPECT FOR ALL, and it doesnt matter if they are born gay or turn GAY, THE IS THEIR PREFERENCE AND THAT IS THEIR RIGHT, just like we have the RIGHT TO BE STRAIGHT. why is this SIMPLE logic so hard to comprehend. I dont have much and i am not that smart, BUT THANK GOD I AM NOT A HATER, i can sleep at night and i feel good about myself.

are you serious @MyOpinion4U - so, just because society says it is okay, that makes it okay? Sin is sin. Perversion is perversion. Just because Hollywood has glorified being gay does not make it no longer a sin. This is about right and wrong, and apparently too many people have lost their sense of right and wrong. The gay movement people will say that if you oppose their views and don't support them, then you are hateful and fearful. What a load of garbage! I can oppose sin with hating the person. I am not afraid of anything because i don't support your perverted lifestyle, anymore than I support the pedophile.

By the way, since I was born to have a great liking for beautiful women, does that make it okay and no longer a sin to chase after my desires? Sin is sin, and is not changed by the fact that society now says it is okay.

R U serious, Redbaron? @Redbaron13 - Sin is sin and perversion is perversion, true, but define sin and perversion.

Is it sinful and perverted to practice plural marriage?
Is it sinful and perverted to wed 15 year-olds?

Answer back...I'll wait.

maybe he is serious...... @Big Love - People who practice plural marriage are not Mormons. My ancestors, not Mormons, were often married aroud the age of 15, and so are you saying they were perverted and sinful?

Answer back....I'll wait.

People, swank, who practice plural @swank - marriage are no LONGER Mormons, though you're aware that the Mormons were, at one point, very adept at the practice.....and no, it doesn't make them perverted sinners....unless 15 year old girls are involved, then yes...it does make them perverted sinners, (with due respect to your ancestors.)

Re: are you serious @Redbaron13 - I think that many in Utah would do quite well living in a religious theocratic state such as Iran where civil law and religious law are one and the same. Thank goodness our "inspired" Constitution made an effort to separate the two. Can you imagine what our country would be like if our Constitution used religious fighting words such as "sin." Have people not learned anything from the accounts of the Salem Witch Trials where an established, religious theocratic state led to the frenzied killing of innocent people who weren't quite living their lives as others thought they should be living them. It is downright scary to read some of these comments on this forum. I just read an article today about Iraqi Christians who have to abandon their "sinning ways" and either convert to Islam or face death by a self-righteous rabble. As long as religions do their thing with their own congregations everything will be fine, but once a religion goes outside its box and tries to force its particular set of values upon others, do we have a serious problem.

I agree hollywood has glorified sex between a man and woman outside of marriage too and that is a sin, it does not make ... @Redbaron13 - My husband and I dated all through high school, we could have easily have easily been together intimately before marriage, it was not easy not to do so, but ultimately we did make it until we were married. I believe you can be born with certain urges or things that will be a temptation for you, so when someone says they feel gay and have those urges I believe them. But just like I did not act on my urges because of my beliefs, people that are born this way are expected to do the same. Is it easy, no, will it be a challenge their entire life, probably, but if they truly believe in the doctrines of the LDS faith, they should be willing to follow the teachings. If they truly do not believe in the church then they should probably not try to force them self into a religion they don't truly believe in. Calling your self Gay LDS is very contridictary, they so0ld

Warren.... @Warren T. - I agree with your post - but wonder how well you and your "husband" were accepted in high school. ;)

Hey sick logic, cool it with the capitals..... @MyOpinion4U - You can make a point without yelling

Re: Sick Logic @MyOpinion4U - I agree with your comments. Statistically speaking, pedophiles are overwhelmingly heterosexual, but the gay haters try to incite a near-violent frenzy against gays by making subtle undertones that all gays and pedophiles are one and the same.

I completely agree! @Slappy123 - If they truely love each other, it shouldn't matter if they are two men, two women, a man and a woman, or even if they are different races. It is there choice to be in a relationship of that kind. They aren't asking you to join in it with them. So why would it matter if they are or aren't together? They will be in a relationship either way. Face it.

Isn't it great that you @music is life - have that opinion, and its equally wonderful for those who can disagree.

Slappy @Slappy123 - You don't understand your religion.

if you are truly LDS... @Slappy123 - than you wouldn't support Adam and Steve getting married. The doctrine of the church strictly does not condone the act. Love the sinner, not the sin. If you are "LDS" and you support gay marriage, than maybe you should hind somewhere else to worship

If you are LDS Slappy123... @Slappy123 - Then you clearly dont understand the doctrine by saying "your born gay and that the way God made you". There is nothing whatsoever throughout the scriptures that shows God supports homosexuality. The whole idea that "God made you that way" is so tragic that it denies any personal accountablity whatsoever. You basically are claiming that your crotch does your thinking for you. If that is truely the case, you may want to visit a sexual addiction therapist.

There are plenty of people out there (some of who are gay BTW) that show the argument that people are not born that way.

@B B. - No, they are just seeking the same rights as straight people have.

The Mormon church has experienced it’s fair share of criticism and even this day isn’t accepted by may Christian groups. They speak out as a proponent for rights and when it’s in their favor. They even lost lives over polygamy much the same type of issue.

They don’t allow openly practicing homosexuals to be active in their church. They are often excommunicated so why do they care? Live and let live.

What if I wanted to marry my horse? @B B. - Or my nephew and his mother?

Equal protection under the law!

@B B. - Im watching Will and Grace right now, and man are these gay dudes funny!

Ironic? @B B. - I think it is funny that a religion (Mormons) who once practiced the most controversial sexual lifestyle of their day (polygamy), and still cries about the injustice of it all, is now the biggest voice opposing someone elses sexual lifestyle (homosexuals).

I don't agree with either one (polygamy or homosexuality), but if I had to choose between the two evils I would choose a gay lifestyle over polygamy, ANY DAY!

Gays won't be happy until everyone accepts them. Porno producers won't be happy until everyone accepts them

Child molesters won't be happy until everyone accepts them

Deviants of all kinds won't be happy until everyone accepts them

Murderers won't be happy until everyone accepts them

Does not accepting evil make you a bad person or a good one? Being tolerant does not mean accepting evil behavior. We need to speak out against what is wrong. Love the sinner and hate the sin. I would be glad to accept anyone, but not their sins.

HOMOSEXUALITY IS WRONG AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN. Just because you may have been born with a desire doesn't make you justified in fulfilling it. Clearly some people are born killers. Something in them makes them more inclined to kill people. It doesn't mean we should accept them for "who they are" with no consequences.

Jenny C won't be happy until everyone accepts her @Jenny C. - just sayin'...

Ursa major @Ursa Major - grow up

You said it so well. @Jenny C. - "Being tolerant does not mean accepting evil behavior."

And everything else you said.

And churches wont be happy either. @Jenny C. - ....

Difference @Jenny C. - All of those people you mentioned victimize other persons against their will EXCEPT for consenting homosexual adults. Homosexuality is wrong ONLY IN YOUR RELIGIOUS OPINION. Passing a bill aimed to deny privileges and rights against a particular group of people based purely on religion wreaks of theocratic tyranny. It would be on par with Southern Baptists arguing for legislation against recognition of LDS weddings because of their religious opposition.

But no rights are being denied @Rotorblade - Proposition 8 has nothing to do with taking rights away. Same-sex couples in California already have all the same rights given to them through domestic partnerships that couples do through marriage. This bill is simply to keep in place what the meaning of marriage has been since the beginning of time.

Well Said,Jenny C, @Jenny C. - And soo TRUE!

@Jenny C. - You've got a major flaw in your argument.

In all the scenarios you mention, there is something present which is lacking in a gay marriage situation: a victim.

It was a good attempt to smear gay people though, by lumping them in with murderers and child molesters. But gay people are no more associated with those things than you are.

It breaks my heart to hear such ugliness toward our fellow human beings, who have done nothing to hurt you or anybody else.

Victim? @Stee - The majority of society (those who disagree with Same Sex Marriage) are the victim. And we are sick of SSM doctrine being shoved down our throats.

How so? @Turbominivan - How exactly are you victimized?

Because @Stee - if this passes, then all Church's who don't marry gays, lose their TAX free status

It's the church @Turbominivan - Thats doing the shoving. My gay neighbors have never once knocked on my door to try and preach thier views. Or to tell my I'm going to thier hell if I don't come to there church and worship thier God.

How many SSM advocates have come and knocked on your door?????????

Victim? @Stee - The victims are our children who are preached to all day long. You aren't happy with just having gay marriage allowed, you want it taught to our 6-year-old children.
You enjoy all the same rights that we do, but you want society to tell you and our children that it's okay. OUR children and YOUR children are the victims.

@T-Mugg - Really, you think if gay people are allowed to be married, your 6 year old will be preached too all day long? About what?

I think you're all worked up over something that isn't going to happen. The sky isn't going to fall, and your 6 year old will still learn reading and math in 1st grade.

And you can feel free to preach all the intolerance and hate you want at home. Hopefully your kids will somehow still grow up to be kind human beings, even though unfortunately you didn't.

My kids have been taught to respect people, even those who are different than they are. There are no victims here.

Your children are being preached to alright @Stee - By you. All day long. I'd like to know in what venues the same-sex marriage advocates are preaching to your children? Provide the have the address please. Maybe it's an online chat room. If so maybe you should monitor your children better. Or quit lying on this message board. Pills for paranoia perhaps?

Are children are being taught @Daveyr - Just look at cases that have happened in MA and just this last week in CA.

In California, a first grade class went on a school sponsered field trip to a gay wedding.

In Massachusetts a second grade teacher read a book called "King and King" to her class about how a prince married a prince. Parents tried to object to same-sex issues being taught to their children and the courts said that they parents do not have a right to object.

Are children will continue being taught this unless we stand up and protect how marriage has been defined since the beginning of time.

Are... Our @Ace74 - Wow... Guess I really shouldn't post comments after a long day.... Should have stated "Our children" and "the parents" instead of "they parents".

so @Stee - ...so if I don't accept YOUR beliefs, than I am intolerant and hateful?
Why is it that you want me to respect your beliefs, but you won't respect mine? Just because I think that gay people have a serious mental flaw, does not make me intolerant, hateful or fearful. The gay community are the biggest promoters of fear. I am so sick of that old talk about me being hateful and fearful if I don't roll over and accept whatever you keep trying to shove down my throat.

Right... @T-Mugg - The school systems and the NEA have the public school systems in the palm of their hand.

Hitler said: "Let me control the textbooks and I will control the state."

Lenin said: "Give me your 4-year-olds, and within one generation I'll construct a socialist state."

The parents who are clueless will put their kids in these schools, and they will be indoctrinated to believe what the person controlling the state and the money wants them to believe and they will grow up and vote that way.

Homosexual marriage will be legal soon in all parts of this nation...and there is nothing you can do about it. Most people pay such high taxes, that they cannot afford to send their kids to a small private school...so we take what we can get...and we will suffer the consequences.

Victim? You think that there are no victims? Wrong!!! @Stee - There are the families that have been scorned and shamed because of the selfish actions of some who persue their lusts. I have had an ex-sister-in-law decide to try lesbianism. It has divided our family.

So She's the Victim @Sambecks C. - Based on your fairy tail religion.

Well then @Sambecks C. - I suppose those who decided to marry outside their race back in the 1950's were just as selfish when such a decision offended their racist families?

Stee, @Stee - Society is the main victim.

Homosexuals can be homosexuals.... @Jenny C. - but don't you try to preach to my children that it's right.

If I choose to start binge drinking and looking at porn in the 5th grade, is it okay if I try to convince everyone that it's right to put a strip bar next to Park Lane Elementary school. Of course it is...It's freedom of speech (sarcasm).

Face it folks, many of you are very miserable and you just want to force your viewpoints on the rest of the world.

Let the Mormons keep their values. I've never had a mormon force-feed their religion down my kids throats, but I've had plenty of homosexuals force feed me with their doctrine. They are standing with the majority of California when they talk about the dangers of "demeaning da meaning" of marriage. This is one issue where I will fight side by side with the Mormons and I know we will fail because Judges outweigh the majority in California.

nice impersonation @T-Mugg - of a Mormon pretending to not be one. We are oh so convinced. [Insert ovation here] So you've had gay people come to your door paired up trying to convert you?

MORON HOLIER THAN THOU IDIOTS LIKE YOU @Jenny C. - Make me happy that I do not follow any god.
Intolerant toad humping bowel slurpers says I.
There is a huge difference between being gay and being a murderer. Evil my aching a**.
For the record I am NOT GAY, however since gay people do not have any affect on me, who am I to tell them they cant be together or for that matter deny them the same rights i have with my wife?
Marriage is a crock, its a business proposal and predates religious activities.
So they want to visit each other in teh hospital like a man and woman do when they get married, so what? so they want to be able to take care of each other and extend insurance benefits, again, so what?
Them loving who they love, and having carnal relations with each other does not effect me in the slightest. Itz not my doody hole being plugged, its not me kissing a hairy sweaty man, its not me being ogled or stared at or hated for being who I am. So long as what they do does not personally effect me its none of my business. It doesn't effect you, or your kids, it has no negative impact what so ever.
Would you guess that I know several people who happen to be gay and may even be your doctor or dentist? You would never know to look at or talk to them they are gay, I know one who pilots the planes you fly on, one who is a dental assistant, since I wont tell who and where I guess you better stop getting your teeth cleaned, no more flying and no more medical care.
They are people, like anyone else, and and should be given the same rights, our constitution promises that all men are created equal, but hypocritical turds like yourself make that impossible.
For the record, Im pro gun, pro right to choose, pro intelligence, and pro right to live how you want so long as it doesnt bring harm to someone else.
God and the crap spewed forth from the pulpits in his name have done horrendous damage, the crusades, teh spanish inquisition, the death of how many indians (american) at the hands of christians who either kill them or convert them. How about the wars that have raged for thousands of years in the middle east? God does far more harm than good, and all of it over a imaginary being that can not be proven. The bible conflicts its self at every turn. Homosexuality is wrong to me, so I dont participate in it, its that easy, much like changing the channel when something comes on TV I dont care to see or changing the radio station when a song comes on I do not enjoy.
Narrow minded bigot bastages say I, I am HAPPY, nay ECSTATIC, to not count myself among your kind.
In the name of Beer, Amen

@Grvtykllr - If you are happy, your words have a strange way of showing it.

Call it how you see it Jenny C.!!!! @Jenny C. - So, gay folks have openly criticized the Church.

Guess what happens when the Church openly criticizes gay folks? They go crazy!


Isn't (hypocritical) liberalism funny???


That's why all the Hollywood folks want you to vote their way. So, they can live in a world without religion, conservativism, capitalism or rules.

Odd @KKB - you would have a pic of A. E. who was , guess what? An atheist.

Nice try Ned, but @Ned McHaggis - you clearly aren't familiar with Einstein.

He wouldn't accept quantum theory precisely because "God doesn't roll dice."

He did not subscribe to an organized religion in his older years, but he strongly believed in a supreme organizer.

that is true @Opinions Expressed Here - Einstein did elieve in GOD

sometimes the truth hurts @Jenny C. - all I can say is Amen. accept and love the person but we dont have to accept the behavior

Big ditto, Doug, and I hereby @Doug B. - promise to accept and love my LDS neighbors, but not accept their behavior.

Re: Jenny C @Jenny C. - I really liked your murder analogy, the only flaw is that when you kill someone you impacted another innocent person's life. When someone indulges in homosexual sex with another consenting adult, it doesn't impact another innocent person.

Perhaps we should look unfavorably upon all sorts of deviant sexual behavior, whether it is homosexuality, polygamy, S & M, oral, or flat out adultery; but when you stop and think about it, why should I let it get to me. I really think that people who obsess about what other consenting adults are sexually doing behind closed doors have a real problem of their own. It really amounts to nothing more than voyeurism, and that is what I think you are, Jenny C.--a voyeur who thinks of other people's sex lives. You should be ashamed of yourself and go repent for having such evil thoughts and just mind your own business. If an innocent person is getting hurt, then you can think of protecting the innocent, but quit worrying about the type of sex people have.

@Jenny C. - you forgot one, MORMONS WONT BE HAPPY UNTIL WE ALL FINALY ACCEPT THEM!!!

Hi Jenny, @Jenny C. - "Does not accepting evil make you a bad person or a good one?"

Please take a moment to realize that your definition of evil comes from a chosen belief system. Not everyone follows your chosen belief system. For that matter, there are a lot more non-LDS than there are LDS. Ask yourself this: Does forcing someone to follow your chosen belief system make you a bad person or good one?

Within the confines of your church and the members that make it up, I encourage you to have and hold your beliefs. However in dealing with the general public that does not share your faith, please exercise tolerance.

"HOMOSEXUALITY IS WRONG AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN"

..according to your faith. Which is just that and nothing more, your faith. In terms of absolutes, you're completely wrong. Not all cultures and all faiths throughout time have condemned homosexuality. Some have even supported it.

Please understand that I'm not saying that your faith is wrong, misplaced or anything of the sort. It is however just your faith. Imposing your ideals of right and wrong on other people is dangerous territory. Particularly when you use your strength in numbers to overcome a minority seeking equality under civil law.

Is it less of a right to choose to be against homosexuality as opposed to being for it? If I choose to believe homosexuality is a sin am I not as entitled to that position as someone who sees it as natural? It seems as if those who oppose homosexuality for moral reasons are the ones being demonized. While I agree that we need to show love and compassion to all I would like to suggest that I have a right to suggest that marriage, in my opinion, is between a man and a woman without being painted as angry and repressive.

also @Rollin S. - It seems like these groups are criticizing churches for their beliefs. That is just unreasonable. No church should be pressured to change their beliefs or views because it is unpopular, so to speak.

They're not criticizing church beliefs. @B P. - They're Criticizing the Church for trying to force it's beliefs on other people. This is a STATE CIVIL matter. The church needs to stay out of it.

Dear Mr. STATE CIVIL matter (whatever that means???) @ghostpanther - And somehow you think the doctrine of SSM isn't being forced on those who disagree?

Do you have ANY idea what this story is about??? @Turbominivan - Maybe you should read it first.

I dont care what your churches view is. @B P. - Thats a personal belief and your entitled to it, but what makes it OK for your church to tell other people how to live?

@Grvtykllr - It is OK for a church to speak its opinion just like it is OK for you to speak your opinion. What would make it OK for you to speak your opinion, but not a church. Likewise, it is OK for you to follow your opinion, or a church's opinion, or to ignore it.

It's called freedom. And churches are allowed to use that freedom also.

Well said. @Rollin S. - Bigotry goes both ways. Gays seem to be far more prejudiced against families and religion than vice-versa.

Prejudiced????????? @Jenny C. - Explain! I want to know how you can say that? When the church started the whole thing.

Agreed Jenny C. @Jenny C. - Gay's went against the majority in California. They batted it down in 2000, but they came back to force-feed it to the majority. Gays started this by their need to force-feed us all.

Don't preach @T-Mugg - The Church started it by Killing "in the name of God". Anyone remember the crusades?

@Jenny C. - Your's is a completely nonsensical comment Jenny. I have never known of a gay group or individual who was prejudiced against families. If they are against religion, it is almost always because of religionists' bigoted views against gays. You live in an odd, imaginary world of fear.

@Rollin S. - If you think homosexuality is wrong, then don't have a homosexual relationship. That is your right. It is not your right, however, to tell someone else that because you think homosexuality is wrong that they should not have a homosexual relationship, or that they cannot have the same rights to the same legal definition, and all the rights and benefits it brings, of their union that you have of yours. When you want to deny other people of the rights that you have, that is the very definition of repressive. I really don't care what restrictions the Mormon church wants to put on its own members, but when they try to take rights away from people who do not subscribe to their religion, like they are doing in CA right now, I have a huge problem with that.

Now I will say, as a straight non-religious person, I don't quite understand why a gay person would want to stay Mormon, when this church shows so much hatred toward them. I wouldn't want my name associated as a member of that kind of organization.

And why, with everything else that is going on in the world, the wars, the violence, the oppression, the genocides, the hunger, the poverty...why is this the issue the LDS chuch has chosen to rally so strongly and vocally around? I mean really, gay marriage?

I've asked this question before, and nobody will answer it. How, specifically, in any concrete, definable way, does two men or two women getting married cause harm to anybody else?

I do think, with all the optimism in humanity that I can muster, that acceptance of gay marriage will continue to grow, the intolerance of the LDS church and its ilk will fade more and more, and that years from now we'll all look around at our gay and straight neighbor families and realize there was really nothing to be afraid of all along.

Agreed @Stee - I remember another group that wanted to Force it's views on others. What was thier name???? Oh Yea Nazis.

? @ghostpanther - Are you calling the gay's Nazis for forcing their views (which only account for about 1% of the population) on the rest of us?

????????????? @Josh R. - Did you even read the above post?????

the LDS church @Stee - teaches that Homosexuality is a choice...why stay a member if you know this is what they believe? This radical group is just trying to stir up hate. And try and get the nations attention to side with them, and since our media is quite liberal, they are succeeding. All things in perspective, I'd rather have God on my side versus the media, but that's their CHOICE

You are wrong @Daniel J. - The LDS Church does not teach that homosexuality is a choice.

When Larry King asked President Gordon B. Hinckley if gays were born gay, he said, "I don’t know. I’m not an expert on these things. I don’t preted to be an expert on these things." If the President of your Church didn't know if being gay is a choice, then how can you say it is an LDS Church doctrine?

We agree on one thing Daniel--one side is stirring up hate, and all you have to do is read these posts to see which side is filled with hatred.

Re: You are wrong @C.R. - I think you have hit the nail on the head with Mormon belief. The "faithful" Mormons often disregard or pick and choose comments made by their leaders in the past to support their own personal positions. Look at the caffeinated soft drinks example. The church has never said to stay away from caffeinated sodas, it is the members who have made that up in order to justify why coffee and tea (hot drinks) while hot chocolate (a hot drink) is okay. Of course chocolate, especially the dark kind, is loaded with caffeine. Many of the Mormon common folk just like to make illogical assertions and back it up with sub-par persuasive arguments in an attempt to show their neighbors how wonderful and celestial they are. It is a new type of vanity and it is spreading rapidly. You can see it on this forum. The way some people write, you would think they are lobbying to be a General Authority in the LDS church or that they have perfect, sin-free lives and are lecturing others about how to live their lives. But of course, today is Sunday, so we will see how these same people treat each other on the highways tomorrow!

Hate @C.R. - I have seen plenty of hate by the pro-gay marriage people also. Do not try to make this as Mormons as haters only. I you would take an HONEST look at it, you would find that most Mormons are against gay marriage, NOT against gays. That has been preached by Mormon leaders time and again. I have known some gays myself that I enjoyed being around. I have never had an ounce of hate myself, and more LDS I know feel the same.

If you want to see some gay hate against Mormons, read the online comments at the following article. Do not say there is not hate there. There are even suggestions of violence against Mormons (with lots of "thumbs up" votes.) I understand that they are upset with the church's position. But that should not breed hate, and even suggestions of violence.

A.I.D.S. @Stee - That's right, homosexual men are more prone to get AIDS than any other group in the world. Can anybody else please affirm that AIDS is harmful. Because I believe it is....so that is how it can harm somebody else.

AIDS @Jeff H. - Gods warning that being gay is unatural. Seems theres a verse in the Bible somewhere,"Woe to the man who lieth with anoter man,for he shall be put to death". Pretty much sums up Gods opinion on homosexuality

Odd How @Darth Fegelein - Lesbians hae a VERY LOW incidence of HIV/AIDS Is Bible God cooking up a special disease just for the Ellens of the world? MOST AIDS cases are in Africa and they are almost entirely HETROsexual. Wake up Darth because unless you are 100 % monogomous and your wife/girlfriend is also or 100% abstinent and 100% drug free then YOU could also get AIDS.A virus doesnt go " hey attack the gay guy "

Explain Africa @Darth Fegelein - The AIDS epidemic in Africa is spread primarily through heterosexual intercourse. So is God saying something about heterosexuality in Africa? Don't give me the "staying true" to your partner argument either, because homosexual couples wouldn't have to worry about
AIDS if they stayed true to their partners as well.

@Jeff H. - The fastest growing segment of the population contracting HIV is heterosexual women. Does God hate them too?

GOD HATES THEIR CLOSET QUEER HUSBANDS AND BOYFRIENDS @Stee - GOD HATES THEIR CLOSET FAGGOT HUSBANDS AND BOYFRIENDS FOR INFECTING THE WOMEN.

[Please don't shout with ALL CAPS.]

@Stee - Do I not have the same right to express myself politically on the definition of marriage? It seems that only one side of this discussion feels they have the true right to represent and define the institution. If I don't think homosexual relationships should be defined under the broad term of marriage why am I not as entitled to that opinion as someone who believes they should? I won't go into all the potential scenarios or relationships that could also be defined by marriage which currently aren't because I'm confident you can think of some on your own but honestly this isn't about repression under the law it is about defining marriage in our collective society.

Rollin @Rollin S. - you said pathetic conservative. It doesn't matter what you think, and it doesn't matter that the majority of the people in this country feel the same as you. Whats important is that everyone is treated equally, even if that means you and most of the rest of us have to sacrifice our beliefs, our morals and our values.

That was sarcasm, but does anyone else see any correlations between this and the 90's when the liberals forced the government to give loans to everyone because everyone deserves to own a home? What's going to happen in 20 years when we have an AIDS epidemic in the US similar to Africa, and we have a bunch of messed up children that grew up in these gay homes? I know people are going to think I'm being hateful, but didn't people say the same thing about those "crazy, racist conservatives" that didn't want to allow poor people to buy homes 20 years ago?

@Josh R. - Ummmm... ok then. I am not a conservative and your rant about the housing crisis is not only offtopic but clearly misleading. My concerns about the definition of marriage consists more of public education and honestly the forcing of a minority opinion on the masses. I haven't even stated my opinion on the topic. Here is a little reading for you on your suggestion that minorities have caused our housing collapse. I think anyone involved in the industry and economics of it will tell you there is far more investment fallout then owner occupied minority housing.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/162789

@Rollin S. - As I mentioned, I was being sarcastic. This gay rights group is out spreading it' message and trying to convice people to vote for it's issues but as soon as someone disagrees with them it is hateful and wrong. I was agreeing with your point that everyone's opinion deserves to be heard. I also think that if we took a vote in this country that most people would be against gay marriage so it is frustrating that these groups feel picked on when they are the minority.

That article you cite is a joke! It skirts around the issue and the author obviously doesn't want to really discuss it. He mentions Florida and says that most of the vacant condos weren't owned by minorities. Well, isn't Florida's population much older than the rest of the country? Aren't many of the citizens of Florida retired? Who has been affected the most by the downturn in the economy? Retired folks living on a fixed income. I'm not talking about the 2,000+ point loss over the last 2 weeks, but the 3,000+ point loss over the last 18 months leading up to this last month.

Many of those old people saw their portfolios shrink by 20-30%. Also, I didn't say minorities, I said poor people. Newsweek is not the best source to get financial information from. You should try reading the Economist, WSJ, IBD, or even finance.yahoo.com.

@Josh R. - Josh I could spend my day citing additional sources for you regarding your comment but it really isn't my responsibility to educate you. I work in the very derivatives and securities that we are talking about here. I breakdown pools of REO debt and CMO's and CDO's regularly and frankly I don't even need Newsweek to tell me the percentages of defaults based on the structure of the originated loans but thanks for the pointers.

@Josh R. - At some point in our country's history, the majority has also been against women's rights, against equal rights for black people. It took a conscientious minority to stand up and say that's not right, that even when the majority wants to oppress, we are a land of equality and rights.

I'm all for equal rights @Stee - but look what has happened to our country. The divorce rate has almost tripled since women got 'equal rights.'

That's not meant as a misogynistic comment, I just hope that people look at the long term ramifications of their actions. It's great that women can vote but it hurts families when mom's and dad's both work and kids get left in daycare all day. If a mom wants to work and the dad can stay home and take care of the kids than that's great.

People say that gay parents can raise good healthy kids but the truth is that there haven't been enough studies done over a long enough period to really prove anything. On the other hand most pyschologists will tell you that a child is better off having a mommy and a daddy at home, not 2 mommies and not 2 daddies.

women's rights & "look what has happened to our country" @Josh R. - Wow, I thought that mindset that we were better off as a country when women had no rights had died off a few generations ago. I'm at a loss for words. Just wow.

Equal Rights @Stee - means a lot of different things to different people. I was talking more about the sexual revolution from the early 20th century when women really started becoming 'equal' with men. Since then we have seen the importance of families slowly disintegrate.

Like I said before that was not meant as a misogynistic comment. I love my wife and respect all women, I just think that some of the Hilary Clinton types go way too far and end up doing more harm than good. It is great for people to be able to express themselves, to be able to work wherever they want, to be independent. But I hope people are taking into consideration the long term affects. Families are falling apart. What will happen to society when gay marriage is accepted as normal? What will that do to the families of our country?

Don't try to make me out as a bigoted woman hater. The facts speak for themselves, I am just showing the facts to everyone.

One more thing @Stee - While we're on the subject of bashing utah and mormons lets not forget that Utah was the 2nd state to allow women to vote. Utah has always been ahead of the curve on tolerance but for some reason people see it as a bigoted, hateful, crazy religious state. I grew up in Seattle and I thought some of the same things about Utah until I moved here.

You have to understand the goal of Christianity if you want to answer your question @Stee - You call yourself non-religious which is probably why you don't understand. The goal of the LDS church is to bring people to Christ, follow his teachings and return to live with Him in Heaven some day. Homosexuality is a sin and thus it is something that would stop people from acheiving that goal.

You along with many others misinterpret the church's opinion as hatred towards the gay community when if fact it is the complete opposite. The church cares about everyone and is concerned that these homosexuals will not make it into heaven. If gay marriage is legalized and accepted than more and more people will think it's o.k. and more and more people will fall away from Christ. That is why it is harmful and that is why the church speaks out publicly against it.

As for the other issues you mentioned, the LDS church is actively working to stop them. Just last week my wife and I spent 3 hours canning peaches that were sent out all over the world to the poor and needy.

As a non-religious person I don't expect you to agree with what I've said, but I hope that it at least helps you understand the logic behind it all.

Josh, you seem like a kind person @Josh R. - Do you find it at all ironic or hypocritical or just plain insensitive that Mormons were once persecuted and denied their rights to practice marriage as they saw fit, and now you're on the other side, trying to deny another group of people the right to practice marriage as they see fit?

As a Mormon, how do you reconcile this? Shouldn't the history of persecution of your people make you more tolerant? Shouldn't you be fighting for the other side? You know what it's like to be told you can't do something that you believe is right to you. Now you're doing the same to another group. If anybody should be defending the rights of gays to marry, it's you!

And if these amendments pass, constitutionally restricting marriage to one man and one woman, aren't you shooting your own beliefs down, because to a Mormon, marriage has been, and you do believe may again be, between a man and a woman and a woman and a woman, etc.?

Honestly @Stee - I've never really thought of it like that. Without giving it to much thought I would have to say that I believe I am on the Lords side and that good will always triumph over evil. It does suck for them that they can't get married. I have a gay aunt that has been with her partner for almost 20 years now and I'm sure they would like to get married someday but I think it's wrong.

A big difference between the church and the gay groups is that the church respects the laws of the land. The church may still believe in the practice of polygamy without practicing it because it is illegal. These gay rights groups don't seem to have the same respect for law and others as the church had. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know what kind of fight the church put up but I know eventually they decided to follow the law and wait.

One of the tenents of our faith (we call them articles of faith, kind of like the creed of the LDS church) says this "we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers and magistrates, in obeying honoring and sustaining the law." I doubt that you will find a similar creed in the mission statement of most of these liberal groups. They don't respect the law or the views of others like the church does. I know that sounds hypocritical since the church is coming out against them on this issue, but again, it's a moral issue and the church is very concerned with those.

Will You @Josh R. - respect the Law of California if this proposition does not go your way or will you whine and complain about "liberal judges legislating from the bench"? I dont agree with every court decision but I do understand that it is the law .

I don't live in California @Ned McHaggis - but I will continue writing the elected officials of that state to voice my opinion. As far as complaining about judges legislating from the bench, I think that is a joke! The constitution wasn't set up to allow 7 people to make the laws. The state legislators should pass a law and if people have a problem with it the judges can mediate.

Josh R. @Josh R. - I don't think anyone has misinterpreted the church's opinion on homosexuality. You can hear the hatred as you read these posts. If what you say is true, that the Mormon church is only concerned about homosexuals not making it into heaven, why then has it never been mentioned before? All I have seen and heard is that homosexuality is a sin, it's perversion, it's sick, same sex marriages shouldn't be allowed. I don't hear or see a whole lot of caring for the homosexuals...whether or not they get into heaven...only hatred. I don't mean to offend you, but I'm having a hard time believing that the Mormon church gives a hoot about homosexuals getting into heaven. If they do, they have a very hurtful way of showing it. As one poster said, he/she felt more comfortable when they were still in the closet. Others were concerned that their children would be converted to homosexuals. Like that's going to happen. I'd like to know who elected the Mormon church to run around saving everybody anyway? If homosexuals want to get married, isn't that their business? I don't see how being gay is falling away from Christ. Aren't many of them fighting to remain in their church? For the life of me I don't know why they want to. I wouldn't want to belong to any organization that treated people with such hatred. THEY ARE STILL HUMAN BEINGS, people.

I said the same thing @Stee - Only not as nicely :D

OK Rollin s @Rollin S. - yeah you have that right to believe that way but we as LSD are told that we should wait till we get married to share our body's with an other. Why should gay be any different. Anyone that love another should be able to marry that person. how many time have any of us have been taught in school what marriage is not many i would think

Re: OK Rollin s @jankrebs - You've got the "LSD" part right.

Same old boring illogical stuff Rollin @Rollin S. - You can believe what you want, no matter how nonsensical or superstitious or bigoted, but You are attempting to deny equal protection of the law to a specific group. When you fight to deny others equal protection, you are going too far.

I am also not obligated to not criticize your bigotry. I won't force you by law not to hold your bigoted beliefs, but I certainly will criticize them.

Come on CR..... @C.R. - Just because someone does not agree with you does not make them a bigot. Gay people have just as much protection under the law as any other citizen, and in fact hate crimes legislation often makes that group more protected. Dispense with the labels and name calling and learn what it means to respectfully disagree, otherwise under your own definition you would be a bigot.

@C.R. - I have no objection to you suggesting my belief is bigoted. I don't view it that way but I am certainly open to the dialog assuming that I could very possibly be wrong. I am curious as to what rights are not being afforded to those who wish to marry under this law currently? In what ways are they being slighted aside from the definition of marriage? Is there an assumption as has been suggested that by giving this definition to homosexual unions will there be a change in the teachings in our schools? If by defining these relationships as marriage have we in essence deemed them appropriate and acceptable by the majority? Additionally, if we are giving any adults protections under this new definition what about polygamous or bigamous relationships? Shouldn't they be considered at the same time as they are apparently unequal as well?

Your equal protection argument presupposes a narrow definition of the purpose of marriage @C.R. - Gay marriage proponents create a strawman that marriage is nothing more than a binding commitment between loving partners. Then you proceed to shoot at that strawman with your equal protection arrows as if your flawed model of marriage is the only valid model.

Your circular logic goes like this, first you set up an a priori assumption: “marriage is only about the legal binding of two people who are making a financial, emotional, physical commitment to each other. Then you build the strawman on this flawed foundation: "Therefore, anybody, regardless of their orientation, is entitled by the 'equal protection clause' to join in marriage; therefore, marriage should be available to anybody who is willing to make a legal financial, emotional, and physical commitment to each other. Therefore, gays are entitled to marriage just like anybody else." Then you conclude your flawed syllogism by deducing your foundational assumption: "Since gays are entitled to marriage by equal protection, marriage can have nothing to do with procreative power at all and is only about legally binding of two people… QED!”, and then you follow it up with the inevitable: “and anybody who says otherwise is a bigot.”

You are entitled to believe that marriage should have nothing to do with sanctioned use of procreative power. But your persistence in personally attacking anybody who does so think as 'bigots' is very close-minded and pejorative in itself. To any reasonable observer, your strong emotional and personal attacks comes across as bigotry and hatred that exceed, in both quality and quantity, anything I could possibly infer from the posts of those you attack.

You've, in essence, taken a strong, unyielding position that gay marriage is nothing more than an equal protection issue that has nothing to do with sanctioning the use of procreative power and that anybody who suggests otherwise is an intolerable bigot. You are rather insistent that any objection to your “equal protection” trump card could only be out of religiously based bias against gays.

Ironically, the true definition of a bigot is someone who is intolerant of, and unwilling to consider differing OPINIONS (emphasis added). In truth, it is bigots who shut down dialogue with name-calling, accusations, non-sequiturs, and a “shoot the messenger” strategy.

Yet, at the same time you refuse to even acknowledge that a reasonable person could conclude that a principle purpose of marriage, from a societal standpoint, is to institutionalize the perpetuation of civilization through responsible procreation. And it appears that the fact that it is primarily religious (which you describe using the bigoted term "superstitious") adherents who argue this moral position seems to put you off even more.

The fundamental question remains, "Does society have an interest in preserving sanctioned marriage for the authorized use of procreative power?" A corollary is, "Does society have an interest in ensuring that its future generations are nurtured in a stable, balanced, loving family environment."

It is perfectly reasonable to argue that the benefits of marriage granted by the state are legitimate means of encouraging men and women to marry, have children and raise balanced, enlightened and self-disciplined children who understand the value of virtue and are devoted to and capable of carrying civilization on their shoulders; and that MARITAL RECOGNITION AND MARITAL BENEFITS SHOULD NOT BE EXTENDED FOR ANYTHING LESS.

If we define marriage as a "procreative institution for the propagation of civilization" as outlined above, your precious equal protection argument is mute, and is like arguing that since the government guarantees student loans to help young people get a college education that the government is obliged to give you a guaranteed loan to start a business; otherwise they are denying you equal protection under the law. Pseudo intellectualism at its finest!

Equal protection only pertains if you strip these salient elements from the purpose and intent of the institution of marriage; and redefine marriage narrowly as nothing more than a civil commitment between a loving couple.

"THEIR" church? Nope. Sorry. They made the decision against being members of the LDS church. They are not entitled to require the church to follow them.

Don't like it, then leave!!! Go back to San Francisco. Correct me if I'm wrong but the church does not condone homosexuality, thus, their is no such thing as a "gay mormon."

Go Back... @Johny dangerously - ...to the Castro District and stay in the closet where you belong!

One Would Think @TheLastLaugh - If they are in the Castro they would be pretty much out. Places like Provo are full of closet cases.

The only way there can be "Gay Mormons" . . . . . . @Johny dangerously - is to go back and reclaim the meaning of the word "Gay" to what it formerly meant.

The homosexual people can go back to being referred to as "Queer". Definitionally, it's more accurate. Also I've heard them refer to themselves as queer.

Too many good songs were messed up when these folks confiscated the word gay.
Sk8boy

But they @Johny dangerously - have NO PROBLEM with Tongan gang banging assaultive criminals going on church missions only to come back to SLC and start gang banging again.These LDS gang bangers go out on Saturday night and rob, assault , kill, threaten,intimidate and cause all sorts of chaos and then show up to The LDS ward on Sunday where there are welcomed with open arms . WTG Mormons ! As always WRONG AGAIN.

First I've heard about gang bangers Haggis . . . . . . @Ned McHaggis - I guess you're in the loop on that sort of activity.

I would say if it was commonly known that such things were happening, there would be something done about it.

You need to step up and report such things to someone other than us losers on this discussion board.
Sk8boy

The History Channel @Sk8boy - Had a show called "Gangland" on just the other night. They interviewed an LDS Church official named "Elder Curtis" who was fully aware of the problem. They also intervied a "former " gang member who had been to prison for two years for assault witha deadly weapon . This is the same guy who was shooting things up downtown at the Pioneer Day parade campout several years back. This guy goes to prison , gets out and wants to go on a mission. He goes to the bishop who happens to be his uncle and the uncle tell him " No Way " SO what does the guy do ? Goes and get the OK from a General Authority of the LDS Church . He goes on his mission for 2 years comes back to SLC and gets back into the gang and commits an arson. This guy is preaching the "truth " about the LDS faith all the while being a violent criminal. Seems that the LDS Church has more of a problem with homosexual marriage than with criminal members who are breaking the Ten Commandment every which way they possibly can .Sorry if facts get inthe way of your "We are so holy we know what is best for everyone" mentality .

Ned McHaggis @Ned McHaggis - Are you being racist by saying that only Tongan's are gang-bangers. Oh man. Sorry.

Don't call the Mormon's bigots, while your racist head keeps rearing up out of your rear.

Not Sure @T-Mugg - Where you got the idea "that only Tongans are gang bangers" The very large part of Pacific Isanders in our community are law abiding hard working people. My point was the LDS Church allows convicted FELONS to go on LDS missions . How do these gang banging criminals tell ANYONE what to believe , who to have sex with or how to vote? Get your own house in order then maybe tell others what they can do . I oersonally think government should just get out of the whole marriage business altogether . Any adult can enter into a contract and it is up to any church to either have or not have gay marriages as they so choose.I also think any chuch can make their opininon known on this or any ohter ISSUE without losing the tax exemption. Endorsing candidates or political parties is a different story.

What a joke @Ned McHaggis - Are you serious? How many returned missionary gang members do you know? How many gang members do you know right now that are planning on going on a mission?

Some people serve a mission and when they return they fall away from the church. That's just part of life, but the LDS church is not out in West Valley recruiting gang members for missions.

And just so we're clear, the church does have a problem with 'gang banging assaultive criminals.' They actually preach against breaking the law just as much as they preach against other sins such as homosexuality.

But you're probably right though, I'm sure the LDS church is the only church on the planet that has ever had one of it's members do something wrong or illegal. It's probably because the whole LDS church is a sham. I bet the church is involved in some of those poly gangs and is collecting taxes on all of that drug money, that would explain why the church is able to grow so rapidly and build so many new buildings every year (that, or the fact that the church really is the true church of God, whatever, it's all the same to you, you're going to hate us no matter what).

Its One Thing @Josh R. - to have members who always dont do the right thing . Every oganization does religious or not. Its quite another to have the General Authorities of your church send convicted FELONS on missions to tell others "the right way" . Who are they to be telling anyone anything?

Keep pushin They are trying to force there homosexuality on us, our children and everyone that they can. I felt much more comfortable when they were all in the closet, I don't need to go any where in public and see people of the same sex being intimate in public and have my kids point it out. They are sick and that is the only publicity they should have!

They Force Religion on us. So whats the differrence???? @sammydcd - I can't stand devote church members with thier Holy than thou attitude. I want to slap 'em everytime I see one. Claiming the moral high ground based on a fairy tale. They need to keep to themselves. And stop pushing themselves on everyone else.

Forcing it on us...how dare they @sammydcd - Yeah, next thing you know, they're going to be sending people on missions, and knocking on my door asking if I want to know more about them.

sammydcd @sammydcd - You were more comfortable when they were all in the closet? Well, I'm sure you were. I know of a couple gays that came out and committed suicide because their families and church wouldn't accept them. I'm sure there are more, especially here in Utah. I certainly wouldn't want that weighing on my heart or conscience. Would you? Or don't you care about human beings? That's what they are, you know...human beings that were born gay...God's children. I'm curious. Do you feel the same way about child molesters, murderers, or rapists? Or do you just reserve your hatred for homosexuals because that's what your church teaches you? I'm sure there are even a few pedophiles that attend your church. You just don't know it because that is something they wouldn't care to share with their congregation. I have lived in several states and I've never seen more ignorance, bigotry and hatred as I've seen here. Shame on you. You really give Utah a bad name.

What do you mean, "especially here in Utah?" @Fedup - Mormons are much more accepting of gays than many other churches. If you need proof of that go google the last 50 gay murders and see what state's they were in. The south is where gays need to be afraid of, not Utah. The LDS church doesn't condone it, but it also doesn't teach it's people to show up at funerals of gays with signs saying that the gay is going to hell (visit the Westboro church's website if you want to see what hatred really looks like, www.godhatesfags.com)(p.s. that is a baptist church, baptists are not very prominent here in Utah. But go ahead and keep blaming all of your problems on the LDS church if that helps you sleep at night.)

It's called outsourcing @Josh R. - It's a good business model. The church provides the hate, dehumanizing the gays, but it's members are to timid to go the distance so they outsource the brutality to the tougher southern folk.

last time I checked @Daveyr - Mormons were second on the list right behind gays in the south, so I don't think it's the LDS church doing that work.

Josh R. @Josh R. - First of all, I'm comparing Utah to the states in which I've lived. I've never lived in the South. Secondly, I have seen and heard how gays are treated in Utah. I have also heard the late President Hinckley attempt to teach his members to be more tolerant of those unlike themselves. I don't see much evidence of that being accomplished. You stated that the LDS church doesn't teach its people to show up at funerals of gays with signs saying that the gay is going to hell. And yet you stated in one of your other posts that the church speaks out against gays because they fear acceptance will cause more people to "fall from Christ" and therefore not gain entrance into Heaven...gays included. Isn't that basically the same mentality...just without the sign? Your last sentence has me a bit perplexed. Are you assuming I'm gay? I assure you I'm not. And if I have problems, they're my fault and nobody else's. I certainly wouldn't blame them on the church or anybody else for that matter. I sleep very well at night...mainly because I let people be who they are and live the way they want to. As long as they're not hurting anybody, it's none of my business.

Go Be Gay By the Bay, in the hay, in LA, as for Utah? "Stay Away!"

Just wow!!!!! The hate being spewed on this subject is making me seriously ill. Why shouldn't a gay person be able to go to church and have the same faith as a straight person? Do we need to have special drinking fountains and bathrooms for them so we don't have to touch their icky gay germs? You really think people are trying to force gay on us??? Oh Noes!!!!! *locks doors and hides from the gay invaders trying to get me*

Reading the ignorant comments on here embarrasses me. I am embarrassed to be from Utah, to be an American, and embarrassed to be Mormon. No gay friend or family member of mine has ever murdered anyone, or been a child molester. They are amazing human beings with amazing talents and I will not be one to say they can't have the same rights that I have. Bigotry starts in the home and every comment supporting the ban on gay marriage is an example of that.

And since when did standing up for your rights become pushing an agenda? Maybe Jim Crow laws were right, and maybe women still shouldn't have the right to vote.

Just some food for thought.

@Cs7261 - Cs7261 Don't be ashamed of being Mormon. That's not what this is about. Not all Mormons agree with what's going on. I for example don't agree with it. I think the Church should have stayed out of it and let these people exercise their "free" agency which includes to ask for a law that benefits their beliefs and needs.
There is nothing to be afraid of. If in the future, same gender sex is common, we will just have to teach our children what we believe in and let them too, exercise their free agency. You teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves, right?
Problem is, we're teaching correct principles and sticking our nose where we don't belong. Because the consequences of what we're doing far outweigh the benefits. It's more damaging to be involved in this in the first place. Not sure who started this, but it seems wrong, to me anyway.

And you don't think you've been brainwashed, either, I'll bet. @Rem - The reason you don't agree with it is because you've bought into the Hollywood version of what the debate is all about, the "why can't I love someone and be with them and share everything" mentality.
If you were a little less short-sighted, you would begin to see exactly what is on the line here. The reason marriage exists is because society has a profound interest in providing the best kind of environment for husbands and wives to raise their children in an environment where they can reach their fullest potential. This is a hard job; it is expensive, and there are a lot of reasons people would not want to follow through on their commitment. So contracts were put in place to protect the idea that it is important for families to be together to procreate, nurture, and then to follow through on their contract. Part of this reason is economic. In order to help families that want to be together, and to protect them from the "free market," marriage gives benefits to couples who get married and get the job done. When you give the rights of marriage to those who have no intention of bearing children, you take away the economic benefit of couples who are married for traditional reasons, by now forcing them to compete economically with those who have two full-time incomes in the same household without the financial disadvantage of having to provide for several "non-revenue" mouths to feed. This drives up the cost of living by increasing the costs of homes, and all kinds of other goods, and it hurts the very people the whole concept of marriage was instituted for.
THAT'S why it is not a good idea to screw around with the concept of traditional marriage, Rem. And THAT reason is being buried under all the feel-good crap coming from Hollywood, and from people who don't recognize the real fundamental danger of changing a centuries-old contract.

@WhoeverSaid - Your reasoning for interfering with the free agency of other is not justifiable, for several reasons:

1. No all marriages produce children, thus your idea of "raising" children is flawed.

2. No all marriages produce the environment where they can reach their fullest potential. Much to the contrary, many marriages produce all sorts of children with problems.

3. There is nothing in Mormon doctrine or the Bible about the modern "economic" benefits of marriage between man and a woman.

4. We must respect the rights and choices of other people unless they come into my Church to preach same sex marriage. Then I would have to stop them. But if they preach it outside the building, then it is their RIGHT and no man or woman in this country, in my view, should interfere with people's rights and freedom of choice, even if we don't like those choices.

5. If you have a scripture and revelation to day that reads:"Thus saith the Lord, thou shall put forth an effort to move Proposition 8 foward until it passes and fight for the traditional marriage between a man and a woman..." THEN and only THEN, I'd drop everything I'm doing and follow that commandment. But if you have just a group of men with an agenda against this freedom to choose that disagrees with doctrine, then that's a problem.
You're not going to be doing God's work by opening this pandora's box. It's a little thing right now but it can grow very ugly if you continue this course of action. In my opinion.

6. Besides, you won't be able to change anything because other countries already accept same gender marriage: Belgium Canada Netherlands Norway South Africa Spain. France and Israel honors any same sex marriages performed in Canada. There are some states which already accept same sex marriage. In the U.S., the following states recognize same-gender marriages:
(CA, CT, MA) and New York also *recognizes* same sex-marriages.

So, how are you going to stop this by only pushing and supporting Proposition 8 in California?

You won't be able to. You lose if it passes. You lose if it doesn't because now you've just created a bunch of enemies, something that could have been 100% preventable and those whom you think are in "coalition" with you, will betray you and abandon you and they will NEVER be your friends. They're just using you.

@Rem - In reply to your #5, I guess you missed all those lessons on the family proclamation. Get ready to drop everything.

"We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children."

"We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife."

"We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society."


If you are truly an LDS member then this isn't just a "group of men with an agenda". Standing up for these basic moral values is a fundamental part of most religions, LDS or other. Oh, and the argument of "but, everyone else is doing it" never works in my book.

@Seagirl - Seagirl...

Read paragraph #2 of the statement.

There is a slight problem with it because it doesn't apply to gay people but only to heterosexuals.

"sacred powers of procreation"

Gays cannot procreate within their gender anyway so that's not a problem to begin with.

To be clear, shouldn't it say: "...sexual relationships" are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife..."

So are you sure that God would have phrased the statement the way it reads? Two gay men or two gay women cannot possibly have those powers!

There is a flaw in logic with that statement. Sounds to me like it was prepared by those who wrote it.

But I could be wrong.

Yes, you are wrong... @Rem - Of course it was prepared by those who wrote it, as was any book in the Bible or Book of Mormon. Those who wrote it took a long time selecting each word and what to include or not include.

That was actually from paragraph 4 if you read the entire document.

Here is paragraph 8:
"We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets."

Pretty clear to me....but it sounds like you want to pick it apart and not take the document as a whole, which is found here: http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=e1fa5f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=1aba862384d20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1&contentLocale=0

Yes, the gay population wants to procreate in whatever way will be successful. To think otherwise is naive. Just look at the cover of the latest People magazine....Clay Aiken and his new baby. It is redifining what a "family" is. That is the whole point of why this is so important.

Seagirl @Seagirl - What is "family proclamation"? I don't recall seeing that in the bible...and I believe that's what Rem was referring to.

@Fedup - "The family: A Proclamation to the World" was presented to the LDS faith in September of 1995. It has been cannonized as a statement of the religions beliefs toward family and gender among other things. If you go to the link above you can read it in it's entirety. If Rem is LDS then this proclamation is Mormon "doctrine" and "revelation" in his beliefs.

I agree Cs . . . . . . @Cs7261 - I'm now standing up for my rights of disassociation. I have the right to choose anyone I wish to associate with.

I choose not to associate with homosexuals pushing their agenda.
Sk8boy

Gays and Mormons Who cares.....let the gays be gays and the mormons be mormons. Let the gays practice what they preach and the mormons practice what they preach.

And for us non Mormons.... @Edgar B. - Don't come on my property just to try and change my beliefs. And if you are "gay" get back in the closet where you are less of a problem...and if "gay" is so normal why were you in there in the first place??

Right @Edgar B. - After all. Mormons are gay for Cougars and Joseph!

That's funny @Daveyr - maybe affirmation can fight for my rights to marry cosmo the mascot.

right @Josh R. - because logos have legal standing and can sign a marriage contract. Just like people.

gays Why is it that the minority is always the one being heard? Isn't it about time the rest of us speak up and be heard? A hand full of people dominate over millions because they voice their opinion and fight for what they belive. We on the other hand set back and say, the church or some one else will fight it, and we set back in our little quite comfort zone and do nothing.
Its not just the LDS church against it. It is other religions also. and groups of non-religious ethics.
It's time we speak out and fight for what is right!!!!!!!! Gays and lesbian have no place in the LDS church or in society.

@Jerald H. - Jerald, take your meds. That's not what the Gospel is all about. It's not you and THEM sinners. It's you state your doctrine, invite to join what you believe it and allow people to make choices for themselves. That's what's taught (or used to be anyway) in Sunday School.
It's called "Free Agency" Remember the plan of salvation where everybody is here to "make their own choices" so LET THEM make their choices. Don't interfere and let this dispensation runs its course.

When Are Mormons @Rem - going to start calling "free will " just that . "Free Agency "? Who are you Curt Flood?"

Like I said, the Church should have stayed OUT of this pandora's box. It dished out, now it will face taking it. So many problems in the world, so many more pressing issues to deal with and 3 men decide to take on the Gay Marriage issue head on. Not only unwise, but very counter-productive and uninspired. Can of worms.

For members of the LDS church who are "embarrassed" by the church... @Rem - If you are a member of the LDS church, and you have a testimony of its truthfulness, then you understand that the leaders of the church take direction from God... Not you, or anyone else. So just remember WHO is running the church and maybe you won't take so much offense to the decisions of its leaders.

And for those of you who are "non-religious"- Just imagine for a moment that there really IS a God (there is) and that we all will be judged according to our actions on Earth (we will)... Wouldn't you care about God's opinion on the matter? That is why we care. That is why we are fighting gay marriage.

@fam4ever - Fam4Ever. You've been brainwashed and I feel the "promptings" to admonish you. Here's the Lord chastising the early Brethren for not taking good care of their families and notice that the "Wicked ONE" has power over them...

“But I have commanded you to bring up your children in light and truth.

“You have not taught your children light and truth, according to the commandments; and that wicked one hath power, as yet, over you, and this is the cause of your affliction.

“And now a commandment I give unto you—if you will be delivered you shall set in order your own house, for there are many things that are not right in your house” (D&C 93:40, 42–43).

Let me ask you this: Did the "wicked one" simply go away and the Brethren no longer make mistakes?
Going after the gay agenda seems to be a huge mistake to me and probably the works of that "wicked one" whom you think leaders are IMMUNE TO?

What sayest thou?

I have a question If heaven is the place where one can be totally happy. Well if a gay person does not act out sexually, and is in a sence misserable on earth. Then when that said person goes to heaven can they finally be gay? Or will they be misserable there too?

Personally, @littleloomy - I feel that the homosexual feelings one experiences in the body in this life are temporal.

So, to answer your question, we MUST assume there truly is a God and that homosexuality is wrong in His eyes. God would never create someone who's immediately inclined to commit homosexual sins. However, he does let nature take its course thus he allows imperfections to happen. (i.e. physical/mental birth defects, miscarriages, etc).

My opinion is that the homosexual tendencies are an imperfection in the body (exactly what, we really don't know) and they will not exist when out of the body nor will they exist when the body is resurrected and restored to its perfect state.

So, when out of the body or after resurrection, the homosexual feelings will be gone and heterosexual feelings will prevail in the afterlife.

but what if they don't @MPetrie - What if it's not an imperfection? What if it really is a part of the Geno that makes that person. Now they go to heaven (Because they chose to live misserably on earth.) And now they have to live a lie and be misserable for all of Eternity.

Or... Does Heaven allow someone to be themselves??? Gay or straight. Terrorists get 7 virgins... Can gays be happily gay in heaven?

But you're just guessing @MPetrie - Which is the definition of religion: organized guessing. Which a lot people strangely pay big money for. Don't look around, you know who you are.

Remember to love your country just hate half the people in it.

The Republican party, proving even stupid in large numbers can make a difference

“What would Jesus do” Hate the coarse

What about church history. Joseph Smith married Helen Mar Kimball when she was 14 years old. He married Nancy Maria Winchester when she was 14. He married Flora Ann Woodworth at 16 years of age. Plus alot more. All at the same time. And they act all high and mighty. They need to crawl back under thier rock and stay out of state civil matters.

@ghostpanther - OK. Look at the contention that bad decision-making has created. That's just great. Just what we needed in a time of crisis.

Tax exempt? The real issue here to me is the fact that a religious institution should not be actively trying to influence law especially in another state.


I respect the Mormon's right to disagree with gay marriage.

But I also respect the fact that if a state votes and chooses to accept gay marriage as legal, that is their decision.

Isn't it true that ANY church can lose its tax exempt status once it begins this kind of campaign...

Agreed @Gypsy L. - Any church that uses it's position to influence political choice should lose it's tax exemption.

Wrong... @Gypsy L. - Churches are allowed to get involved in moral matters without jeopardizing their tax-exempt status.

LOL @MPetrie - Really??? Who said that??? Your Bishop? Also what is the definition (Per the law) Of a moral issue? Watch a ballot go up to vote out a church's tax exemp status. Pretty soon that will be a moral issue as well.

Pull your head out MPetrie. The church is breaking the law. Thats ok though... I'm sure the IRS is all over it.

No, no one said that to me. @littleloomy - And the church is not breaking the law. Otherwise Government actions would be taken since the Church is being so public about it. The Church is not trying to persuade people to vote for it nor are they trying to change people's mind about how they will vote. They are merely contacting as many people who already have made up their mind about it and encouraging them to make sure to get out and vote.

What would be wrong is if the church were trying to influence people to change their mind about how they will vote. THAT is wrong but that is not what they are doing.

Can you answer my question @MPetrie - What would be considered a Moral (Tax-exempt) issue under law?

Good question... @littleloomy - I'm not the one who writes the definition of it but based on historical actions, the Government has allowed Churches to get involved with issues like this without them jeopardizing their status. The easy ones to point out would be marriage and abortion.

Even better... @littleloomy - An even better question would be, how can the state force a church to do what it doesn't want to, with the seperation of church and state???

This is what Jefferson meant when he wrote that, that the state cannot dictate to a church what they must believe.

But, the state (with a lot of money and power from the homosexual movement) is killing or 1st amendment right.

@MPetrie - Only if it doesn't influence vote. When it messes with "voting" it becomes a political issue. Moral issues are typically reserved for the pulpit, writings and speeches.

The church has members all over the world not just in utah @Gypsy L. - so saying that they should not try to influence law in another state just doesn't work, it is a world wide church, there are many members of the church in California and everywhere else. The church will not tell you what candidates to vote for but they tell you to study the candidates and the issues and find those that most closely represent your values and beliefs. But moral issues they should have a right to come out and show they really do believe how they preach that gay marriage is not right. The LDS church firmly believes in preserving traditional family values in a worldly world, it is not wrong to stand up for your beliefs, especially a church, they do not need to change their doctrine because a few people think they are born gay.

The enabled mind The gay culture has by far become one of the most enabled mindset of the last 50 years. It is remarkably sad when petty organizations will go out of their way to impose their set of ideal or rather debauchery on others. Always clamming the role of the victim, homosexuals will try to equate the “struggle” to that of what blacks when through in the sixties. This is an erroneous comparison, equating color to lifestyle chose. For that is what is what it is, the way they chose to live their life. There may be an inclination on a person to be attracted to the same sex, but to say that is the way God made me, and I can do nothing about it is where the enablement comes into play. Everyone has some sort of character defect that must be over come. It is how we become closer to our Savior, we work towards perfection, it is not instantly granted, and there are trials of every sort that one must work to overcome. But to simply say I can do nothing is one of the worst evasions against the Atonement to ever be spoken. Those who have overcome a physical disability, by discovering means that they thought once not to have, have excelled, by compensating in other ways within their own life. On the other hand homosexuals chose to limit themselves by imposes barriers and demonstrate a weak constitution, by saying I will do nothing to fix my flaws.
As for the sacred institution of marriage, marriage was set up by God as a way to allow one man and one woman to create children. If there were no God there is no marriage. Satan always has a counterfeit idea contrary to God’s, this being let two men or women marry. Thus thwarting the commandment to create and progress.
Now many homosexuals will say that traditional marriage is a failure, citing high divorce rates amongst couples. Again this is a choice or character flaw that could be over come by a couple, but they chose not to fix it. But to say you traditional couples had your chance, now let Satan’s plan have a try is contrary to the order that God established.
It all come down to whom ye will follow!

Good point @Son of Liberty - But what if someone like me does not beleve in god, the bible, or any other religion???

Should I still have to abide by your same morals??/ Or can I have my own morals (So long as the servce only to help, not harm others)

Or am I just an evil Human being for being Athiest. an "Un-American Liberal" I've heard people say.

it comes down to choice. @littleloomy - People in biblical times shared your POV. Time and time again they were awaken to the presence of God through harsh signs, because it was the only way to get past the stubbornness of prideful humans. We were all put on earth to make our own choices, because without choosing to go against God, you would never know the absolute joy of going with his will and following what he teaches. The world is ripe for the plucking, and evil is spreading rampant, just like days of old, typically before massive destruction of wicked nations. And yes, believe it or not, there are many Mormons who walk with a "I'm better than you" attitude, and their awakening will be the rudest of all. My point is, I urge everybody to give religion a chance, read a book, read the bible, and the book of Mormon. Do so without intent to disprove. Put pride and the media's opinion aside and find out for yourSELF. To many people are sheep following a corrupt Shepard, make your own choices, but the issue here is that we are raised to believe whatever our parents taught and often these are incorrect or misconstrued, which is why they say we will be punished for the sins of our fathers, basically saying that we might be raised believing incorrect things because of something our parents, or grandparents, etc did long ago, and eventually, the generations will continue to corrupt the next to the point of destruction.

Gay? Mormon? Some how,those two words just cant go togethor,an oxymoron,if you will,,

11th Article So what has happened to the 11th Article of Faith??

"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

The church should practice what they preach and quit trying to shove their beliefs down everyone else's throats.

Weird... @NuDay Accounting - Heterosexual marriage has been the norm for 1,000's of years. Now the homosexual population is trying to get everyone else to accept their lifestyle as normal. So, isn't it true that it's the homosexuals that are trying to get society to accept their behavior as "normal"?

Marijuana/Hemp @MPetrie - has been a very crucial and important part of human society for over 3000 years. The last 50 yrs it's been bad. What would you vote??? To make it legal, or keep it illegal?

dude, @NuDay Accounting - they are INFORMING their own members, teaching them the facts, and urging them to vote. They are telling people basically, if you believe this is wrong, make sure your vote is heard, that's all.

Yeah, Daniel, and they @Daniel J. - have EVERY RIGHT to inform their members, teach them the facts, and urge them to vote....that's what Affirmation is all about.

The LDS church is doing the same thing.

reply to that @NuDay Accounting - I think that the LDS church is practicing what they preach. I think that the 11th article of faith means that we do claim to worship Heavenly Father and his commandments. Dictating our own conscience means that we came to Earth because we were part of the 2/3 that chose to follow Heavenly Father.
Heavenly Father's plan was for us to have challenges, obsticles, and temptation. We fall, we get up. We learn what is wrong and right. Part of Heavenly Father's plan is for us to have free angency. That's how we learn and repent, or just keep sinning.
The church is teaching "Love One Another" like Heavenly Father loves us, but he can't make our choices for us.
So we are all privileged to have been sent to Earth with the choice of free angency and the knowledge of right and wrong. We are supposed to love those who have different obsticles than we do, who have different beliefs, because we are all neighbors and should help one another instead of putting down.

Nuday @NuDay Accounting - Articles 11th went the same way as Articles 12th about "obeying the laws of the land"

Not convenient anymore.

I'm From California ! Lets Not Forget that this was a Voter Approved Ban,(Yes I was one of many that voted this into law), that 4 out of 7 on the Great California Supreme Court overturned. I say THANK YOU to the LDS church for being one of very few that will stand up to these Liberal Idiots Trying to Ruin our Great Country !

Where would the line be If this measure doesn't pass and marriage is thus redefined as a union between two consenting adults regardless of gender where does the line get drawn. Homosexuals say that it is a union between two adults and that no one is getting hurt, correct? Des this not set a precedent for other groups to be able to sue the government to recognize their unions?

Will we then overturn laws prohibiting polygamy because it is a marriage between consenting adults because it is two consenting adults in each marriage? The man is married to a woman and another woman and another woman but each time it is only between two adults due to the fact that it is a man in multiple marriages.

Will we allow first cousins or siblings to marry? They're two consenting adults and no one is getting hurt by it?

What if (I admit this is a stretch) a 36 year old man has an 18 year old daughter and they of their own free will decide to marry? They aren't hurting anyone and are two consenting adults.

The bottom line is if you allow someone to apply an argument to further their own cause it's funny how if that same argument is applied to something they consider disgusting then they won't allow it to happen. The gay argument can be applied to each other situation I posted and more than likely will.

@seanparker - And let's also not forget to mention the differences of ages of consent in different states. Emancipated youth becoming married individuals. In this day and age we see that as disgusting but years ago it was perfectly normal. (see ghostpanther's comment from above for an example of looking at old ways of life through modern lenses)

Effect vs. Affect "Proposition 8 only effects civil marriages". The correct word is "affect", no "effect"...

Watch this and tell me I don't care about the effects of this crap.



http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1815820715?bctid=1822459319

Gay marriage was already voted down The problem with this whole thing is that gay marriage was already voted NO in Calif. But the judges decided to go against it anyways. That is wrong.

I have ties in Calif. Already in the schools they are teaching homosexuality and having assemblies that they are not telling the parents about. They are taking wife/husband out of text books and using "partners" instead.

The LDS isn't the only religion against gay marriage. They have merely joined with all the other religions fighting it.

I am frustrated that the gays are pushing their agenda on us. If you want to be gay fine but don't push it on the rest of us. There have already been cases of people who do not believe in gay marriages being sued because they refuse to do the photography or to allow the marraige to take place there.

That goes agaisnt these people's constitutional rights. If you want to be gay and get married just choose someone that will do it because they believe in it also. Do not force companies to preform services etc for you against their beliefs and will. That is totally wrong.

Next they will be fighting to allow adult men have sex with 8-13yr old boys like what is allowed in the UK. Don't believe it? Look it up. It goes on and more people are trying to fight to say it's OK. Like a child is able to really determine that at such a young age. What a screwed up world we are becomming.

you are correct, @Aimhigh - can you say Soddom and Gomorrah?....didn't end so well for them

Oh maybe it wasnt cool for most @Daniel J. - but Lot and daughters got to do the incest thing with the Thumbs Up from the Big Guy .Read that story again. It says having your own daughters raped by a mob is A OK and that getting daddy drunk and having incestous sex is cool too. Twisted to say the very least.

Inappropriate? @Aimhigh - Curious who voted inapproiate. All the stuff I put in my post are facts. I have been reading up for years and I have ties in the Calif community. I'm from Calif. So yea I have an idea of what is going on out there. The other info was also things that have been in the news and on the internet. They are facts. Voting inappropriate means you are problem one of the ones that believe in these life styles.

Now I could get really foul and say some really inappropriate things but I won't. The fact is I don't beleive others should be force to marry people, take their wedding photos or do medical procedures that go against their beliefs. It's a sick world when we can force others to preform these things or sue them for everything and more for not preforming these things that go against their beliefs.

To all of you who claim [removed] or lesbian It is very simple. Repent or be cast out.

Homosexuaility is a abnormal sexual deviation just as pedophilia, necrophilia, zoophilia, adultery or any other lust in the arm of the flesh. Marriage is santioned of God between a man and a woman.

I'm sorry folks, and troll away if you like, but homosexuality is just plain sick and wrong!!! Any society that would support such activity is ripe for destruction.

All sinners are equal. You are free to act for yourselves, but you are not free of the consequences of such actions.

Any God fearing society will shun homosexuality. It has always been that way and always will be.

I thank the Lord @Sambecks C. - that I don't belong to your church Sambecks C.! People such as yourself with their absolutes about what is right and what is wrong is just plain scary. Religious extremism (any faith) has been the plague of mankind for as long as religions have existed.

ABOMINATION @Sambecks C. - THIS IS EXACTUALY WHAT 80 % OF AMERICANS THINK AND WE ARE BEING SHUT OUT FROM ALL THE RADICALS THAT HAVE TIME TO GO OUR AND SCREAM AND SHOUT ABOUT IT.. THE REST OF US THAT ARE LIVING RESPONSIBLE LIVES AND RAISING CHILDREN ARE NOT HEARD BEACUSE WE HAVE NO TIME......

GAY IS AB ABOMINATION AGAINST GOD!!!!!!!!!

[Please don't shout with ALL CAPS.]

Your post @Matt T. - is the real abomination here.

So if gays can get married... Can I marry my dog??? becuase you know, that's what is going to happen right? people will just marry anybody and everything they want. It will be complete anarchy!!!!!! What if my parakeet and my cat fall in love???? We are all going to hell!!!!!! O_o

-end sarcasm-

Error in Thomas Quote I have not read through all of the previously posted comments. However, Thomas was wrong in his statement that, "same-sex marriage would not force schools to teach children to place gay and heterosexual marriages on equal footing."

Public schools would be required to teach the acceptablity of homosexuality and the lifestyle of homosexuals. This would begin on the elementary school level in beginning reader books about families with two fathers etc. I fear that the ramifications of this would be devestating to our communities and our country.

It's already being taught in the schools. @Christine B. - Watch this video

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1815820715?bctid=1822459319

It's already being taught to 5 year olds against the parents knowledge and beliefs. The parents are being told that they do not have to give parenital notification.

Aimhigh is right @Aimhigh - watch the video.

The pervs are spreading their filth through government paid indoctrination agents (teachers).

IF YOU THINK THAT'S BAD @Aimhigh - You ought to check out what's being taught in Seminary!!!

It is an Abomination against GOD!!!!!! People that read the bible and have the right to their beliefs..... you can not make me think people that are GAY are normal behaved individuals.... i am from california and am not will never be expectence of any gay ir lesbian.....

I think the worse kind of lesbians or gays are those who try and push their ugliness on others....

go find your own corner in life and I willfind my own.... I do believe it is an Abomination against GOD!!!!!!!!

@Matt T. - First believe in literacy Then you can actually start to read your Bible where God apparently condones all manner of abominations including incest and slavery. By the way, how come incest and slavery (and homosexuality for that manner) aren't in the 10 commandments?.... Mr. Bible?

Which God???????? @Matt T. - There's a couple hundred to choose from. Oh you mean the new one they made up a couple thousand years ago.
What about the Greek or Roman Gods?? How about the Egyptian gods????

Uh OH @ghostpanther - What if Zues is the real god? We could have been worshiping the wrong guy all along. OH CRAP