Boy killed by unlicensed driver identified
Saratoga Springs police released the name of the 4-year-old killed Thursday morning in an accident. August 23rd, 2008 @ 3:46pm
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Where did they get the keys for the 2nd time?
@B Happy 4 Ever - Partially to blame. This is the kid's second offense. He was "warned" before. The 15 year old should be skinned alive, that's awful!
@Catholic G. - nice i like the name catholic if you were one you would have much better values then saying that! i hope your feeling high and mighty right now!
@Ian B. - Ian how would you feel, knowing that this kid was already warned for driving w/o a license, and ends up murdering your child? The moron didn't learn the first time, and ended up taking an innocent life!!!
@B Happy 4 Ever - He/she got the first warning. Which has no means nothing really. But as a minor the police had to inform the kids parents. Thats law. which leads me to think the way most others think. The parents need to spend some, if not alot of time in Draper Hilton. The 15 year old needs to be on trial as a adult..
it is the the lost of a child is the worst thing in the world. when you watch you baby die you want to de to i hope that this 15 yr get put in prison where he will never be on the roads agian. better yet lets run him over with a car so he can never drive agian this kid should pay for every thing that the parents now have to pay for
@jankrebs - is a little extreme, but I think he shouldn't have the chance to get his license for a long time, at least. Severe punishments should be given for his actions, intentional or not. Sorry bud...
@jankrebs - i think someone should be watching the 15 yr old, some can't deal with the grief of something like this and he could take his own life .. i bet his parents are also grieve stricken.
Not sure if i could ever live with myself if something like this were to ever happen to me.
I think wanting violence in return only causes more heartache ... what would Jesus do if he were the judge, jury and executioner? I don't feel he would deal with this with hate the way some of you are here.
Not sure if i could ever live with myself if something like this were to ever happen to me.
I think wanting violence in return only causes more heartache ... what would Jesus do if he were the judge, jury and executioner? I don't feel he would deal with this with hate the way some of you are here.
@River7 - ...you seem to be a very nice person. Not everyone is. My take on this kid is that he has probably thrown several hissy fits since the accident demanding to be allowed to drive RIGHT NOW ! If he injures himself at all it will only be to 'let everyone know' that he had better get his way.
@Old Redtail - How do you know how this 15 year old feels. Can you read peoples minds. I am sure he feels like crap, but you don't know if he is a spoiled 15 year old or just a teenager excited about driving. I have a 16 year old girl and adopting a 2 year old girl. I can tell you from my position that the loss of a child is more than I could deal with. But on the other side of this I believe I can imagine what the family of the 15 year old might be going through. We are so easy to put a teenager away for life for a mistake that I am sure he regrets, but yet we allow child molesters to walk free among us. I don't believe I could forgive the loss of a child but why was the four year old where he could be run over.
@Mike T. - ... and hard core criminals were all children once upon a time. And they weren't nice children.
Do we have a justice system that is equal? Here we have a 15 yr guilty of vehicular homicide and the police have not charged him? One constantly reads of incidents in the paper or hears of them on TV and the outcome never seems to be the same. There was the case of a man who committed murder and didn't serve a day and yet a person who didn't commit murder but gets 35 yrs to life????? and the list goes on?? It would seem that if you have the money to buy a fancy lawyer you can walk away from most anything.
@Blane - If he's guilty why charge him? Why not just haul him off to jail? No charges. No trial.
In this country it is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, not on the KSL.com opinion boards.
The police can only arrest and book someone into jail. It is up to the city, county, state, federal prosecutor to file charges.
You want a uniform justice system not an equal justice system.
In this country it is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, not on the KSL.com opinion boards.
The police can only arrest and book someone into jail. It is up to the city, county, state, federal prosecutor to file charges.
You want a uniform justice system not an equal justice system.
@Blane - The outcomes are not the same because the situations are not the same. Just because you read 2 stories about someone being killed by a car, that does not mean that they happening in the same way. Sometimes there is neglagince sometimes there is not. It is up to the police to decide that, not you.
@Blane - Since Automobile Homicide in the state of Utah requires the driver to be under the influence of drugs or alcohol, how did you arrive at the conclusion he was guilty of it? Check it out for yourself, Utah Code 76-5-207. MAYBE the fact that the situation doesn't meet the legal requirements has something to do with why he hasn't been charged. Ya think?
For all you people saying things to the boy who killed ths child. I hope you feel great for saying you would want to skin him or go run over him! NICE you jerks! Maybe the ones saying that should grow some balls and stop blamming a kid who made a mistake that you know will be haunting him the rest of his life! thats punishment enough! Go tell your children exactlly want you want to do to that kid! You wouldn't so don't saying telling to world. Grow Up! God will be the one to judge what happens!
@Ian B. - This is not just an accident. The driver/parents should be punished. How, is up to the system. I get the impression that your kids can do whatever they want and you'll leave the God to be the bad guy.
@66HM5 - I am reading alot of people that are ready to skin this teenager, or run them over, or lets just throw the parents in prison. Wake up to reality, If you spank your child then DCFS will step in and take them away and charge you with physical child abuse. If you ground them they will charge you with mental abuse. It is to easy for kids these days to get away with alot of things and blame the parents. It's a catch 22 that the leagal system has put all parents in, not to mention that they are not allowed to pray or say the pledge of allegence in school. Before you decide to take a teenagers life or put there parents in prison for his mistake, stop and think about how we have let our government tell us how to raise our kids.
@Ian B. - The 15-year-old took a purposeful action (which he knew was wrong, having been warned previously) and his actions resulted in the death of a child. He deserves as much punishment for vehicular manslaughter, as any other driver who kills someone.
You are reacting to the usual trolls here, rather than rationality.
You are reacting to the usual trolls here, rather than rationality.
@Ian B. - know who you are or where you live. But I pray to God its not anywhere near where my children run and play"" You sound just like the type of parent this 15 year old has. Let God handle it???????? Try telling the parents of this innocent 4 year old boy. Oh don't worry, don't cry, God will handle it""""" Talk about who should grow up""""""""
@Renegade - Renegade! Yeah you should probably grow up yourself, first of all you think i am going to run down someone in my car just because i believe that you shouldn't talk about a fifteen year old that way. Because that's the only reason I wrote that comment was because of those sick freaks who said they should skin the kid!..... yeah Grow up! I am not saying the fifteen year old shouldn't get punished and put in jail but it's not like he wanted to go driving and kill someone! It could of happened to anyone not paying close attention to the road! Think about that before you tell me how i am going to raise my kids that i dont have yet!
In my opinion they are more responsible for this than the 15 year old. Parents need to stop letting their kids play in the street. A 4 year old has no business playing on a road with moving cars. Play in the yard or go to a park.
@Jason C. - Could it be other parents that are scared that if we hold these parents responsible for the death of their child that they might have to take responsibility for their own kids? A 4 year old playing in the street unsupervised is an accident waiting to happen. Supervision does not mean you can see them from your front window. It means you are doing you job to make sure your child is in a safe environment. I have a 4 year old and when we are in the parking lot on his bike I am in the immediate location. When a car comes I personally escort him to the side of the road and explain that you have to wait for the car to pass before continuing to play. This way as he gets older the lessons will start to make sense and maybe someday save his life. Right now I treat him as what he is. A 4 year old that can be impulsive and non thinking.
@Jason C. - you about the role parents should play with there children. direct supervision of a 4 year old riding a bike in the street" But that is not the issue right now. The issue is a 15 year old after being giving a warning in the past being allowed to drive again.(note) we don't know the whole story" maybe the 15 year old stole the keys from his parents house. The law will figure that out and deal with it. But This 15 year old could of just as easy ran over you or me"""" But it wasn't you or me it was a 4 year old who didn't know better. The driver needs to be opunished, and punished as a adult""""" And no I didn't trol you"
@Renegade - But according to an earlier artice the reason he was not given a ticket this time was because no law was broken with him driving. He was on private land controlled by an HOA. There are many situations where kids get hit by cars and people are not cited and its chalked up to an accident. People want more punishment here because the driver was underage. If that 4 year old was being properly supervised this would not have happened. You also said it could have easily happened to you or me. I disagree with this for the simple fact I do not ride my bike in front of cars.
@Jason C. - There is plenty of blame to go around, the fifteen year old, his parents, the 4 year olds parents you name it there's someone to blame for it, its the cop-outs who blame only the fifteen year old! That stated, I do beleive he should pay for his crime, but let the legal system and the judge/jury decide his fate, not hot headed bloggers ;)
@Jason C. - You are a moron...The mother was there supervising her child, only a few feet away. To say that the 4 year olds parents are responsible is pathetic. Get you facts straight before placing the blame. So, if you are in the parking lot and a car comes speeding through the lot and does not give you enough time to react to protect your child, should you be the one to blame?
Again, you are a moron!!!!
Again, you are a moron!!!!
@Maverick07 - If you're in a parking lot and you realize that cars DO speed through them, that is all the more reason to teach your child/children to stay close to your car until all are out and you're ready to go into the store. I drive slowly through parking lots because I've seen many children dart off after being let out of cars. I've also seen many a car speeding through parking lots and residential areas and pray that a child doesn't run out in front of it. I will never understand people speeding in areas where children might be. We all need to take responsibility for our children, whether they're ours or someone else's, and anticipate what they might do.
@Jason C. - I think that if this was on me then my 15 year old as well as I would be responsible.I all so believe he should take responsibility for his actions. Then there is the child that was killed his parents should not have allowed him to play in the street. He would not have been hit if he was in the back yard or the yard period. Both family's are at fault. People here don't watch their children kids at age 2 are walking the streets. NOTHING HAPPENS IN UTAH. Ya right
It's really tough to put blame, if blame is the answer.
What really is the answer? Man slaughter? Vehicle man slaughter? Involuntary man slaughter? Should he be charged as an adult?
There's a list of possible charges, but it's really up to the judge that handles this case and how he interprets the law.
I feel that his memory of the situation is punishment enough. I mean...this will send him through emotions that most of us will never encounter.
What really is the answer? Man slaughter? Vehicle man slaughter? Involuntary man slaughter? Should he be charged as an adult?
There's a list of possible charges, but it's really up to the judge that handles this case and how he interprets the law.
I feel that his memory of the situation is punishment enough. I mean...this will send him through emotions that most of us will never encounter.
Wake up law enforcement. do not only warn. Maybe the owner of the car will lock it up and ban the pimply face little deviant from killing someone next time.
@Irene C. - Can't tow a car being driven by a unlicensed driver in an HOA, where all the roads are private. Nope. Can't even issue a citation. Sorry.
@Dr. McCoy - I guess this shows cars can still flatten people even on private roads in an HOA. Sorry!
is because it is not considered a traffic violation. He was driving on private property and according to the Utah drivers license handbook a license is only needed when operating a vehicle on public roads. I would agree that he was to young to be driving by himself however I would also say that the parents of the child killed need to accept some responsibility here. As I have said before a street is not a place for a 4 year old to be playing.
@Jason C. - he was riding his bike... how would you like to have your child that you have talked about before be hit by someone... yeah thats what i thought you wouldn't like it... you don't know the family... i bet you don't even watch your child 24/7... i hope you will some day go through this so you can feel the loss and be blamed by someone like you!!!! FAG!
@Rcro - watching my kid 24/7. But I am there by his side if he is somewhere dangerous like in a street with moving cars. You can not stop a kid from being a kid like falling down at a playground or falling off his bike. These things happen to every kid. What can be prevented are unnecessary accidents like this one. A 4 year old does not understand the rules of the road or the consequences of his actions. That is why they need to have parents supervise them. Let them play in the yard or at a playground. Keep them out of the streets.
@Rcro - run over is totally uncalled for. I resent what you said to Jason C. I have 5 children, 3 whom are grown and have families of their own. A 16 year old of whom I might add was very excited about getting her license, and we are adopting a 2 year old. If you had children of your own (maybe you do, maybe you don't) you would never wish that upon a parent. I and every parnet out there that read these blogs should take offense to your blog.
@Jason C. - I don't remember anywhere where it said that the little 4 year old was playing in the road. He had just dropped off his older sibling at the bus stop and was crossing the intersection to go home! So how does that go into he was playing in the road? I truly feel sorry for the family of the little boy... Our prayers are with them... It is not their fault! As for the 15 year old... I am sad that he now has to live with this the rest of his life along with his parents that had allowed him to be behind the wheel of a car in the first place. I hope there is Justice in all of this and maybe it will teach people a lesson. They wrote LAWS for a reason! I pray for the family that they will have comfort in all of this though it will be hard.
CAST THE FIRST STONE!! Do any of you people remember being 15 years old? Were you totally responsible to be sent to prison for life? Did you NEVER make a mistake....or two.....or three??? I agree with others that this young person is going to have to live with this memory the rest of their life, and they will surely never get over the fact that they were responsible for a death of a child. Let the justice system do what they need to do and let the Lord take care of the rest.
Please give us a list of crimes (that result in a death) that 15-year-olds should be "excused" for.
I cannot believe the number of apologists who do not want to see ANYONE punished for a crime.
I cannot believe the number of apologists who do not want to see ANYONE punished for a crime.
@Layton Mom - Layton Mom, I realize that the odds are this kid is a problem child. Unfortunately, too many people seem to get their legal training from cable TV. The 3 possible homicide crimes here would be Automobile homicide, Negligent homicide and manslaughter. Automobile homicide requires the driver be under the influence of alcohol or drugs. I haven't seen anything to indicate that was the case. Manslaughter requires recklessness and Negligent homicide requires negligence. Read the legal definition in Utah code 76-2-103. You can find it online. Any first year law student would be able to get those charges tossed out. It also wasn't illegal for the kid to drive in the private roads. So what crime should he be charged with? Private roads pretty much only allow DUI and reckless driving charges as possibilities under state law. Once again no alcohol and try to prove "willful or wanton disregard for the safety of persons..." (UCA 41-6a-528) to meet reckless driving. Once again that law student could beat it if your only claim is he is a few months too young to have a license. Everyone hates to see a child die. Just because the mob wants its pound of flesh from the driver doesn't mean it's legal. If you truly want to find the ones responsible, I suggest you look at all of the property owners of the HOA there who have refused to allow the city to pass an ordinance to have state traffic laws in effect on those roads. It requires a majority of the property owners to agree (UC 41-61-214). But it's too important to them to be able to let their kids drive and ride 4 wheelers on the roads without being hassled by the cops. Here's the result of their choice. I think all the property owners in that HOA are the ones morally responsible for what happened.
@LeftisntRight - This is what I have been trying to get across to people, but you said it much better than I could. You hit the nail on the head.
I'm not to good at explaining how I feel but I am going to give it my best shot...
I am so tiered of the comments I read here on ksl putting blame on everyone else. We have raised this generation of kids with no responsibility and no Consequences for there actions, they all run around acting like idiot and think it's funny, they have no respect for anyone or anything. We also have law enforcement that pick and chooses what crimes they want to peruse like the seatbelt law. What a waist go after something like drugs DUI. That also brings another thing up. Why is it against the law not to where a seatbelt? I was told by many that is is "to protect lives". They why the **** is it not against the law to smoke? Does that not kill more people than car accidents?
Anyways what I am trying to get to is we need to be more responsible for our own actions.....
I am so tiered of the comments I read here on ksl putting blame on everyone else. We have raised this generation of kids with no responsibility and no Consequences for there actions, they all run around acting like idiot and think it's funny, they have no respect for anyone or anything. We also have law enforcement that pick and chooses what crimes they want to peruse like the seatbelt law. What a waist go after something like drugs DUI. That also brings another thing up. Why is it against the law not to where a seatbelt? I was told by many that is is "to protect lives". They why the **** is it not against the law to smoke? Does that not kill more people than car accidents?
Anyways what I am trying to get to is we need to be more responsible for our own actions.....
It is not like this 15 yr old boy was drunk.. or intentionally hit this little boy. This 15 yr old is now oging to have to live with the guilt of this forever. I drove when i was 15, and i am sure MOST of you did. i am amazed by the hatered on this board. it really makes me sick. lets skin him alive.. run him over... what a sad group of people you are all.. 15 years old is a child. get real. now as for the 4 yr old. Rest in peace poor baby. I will pray for the family, what a tragedy. :(
@cajmdj123 - Ok he was not drunk or did not mean to do it. Well then I quess it's ok......?
He Got in the car, drove the car, and hit the boy. It was a decision he made of course he is going to have to deal with that the rest of he's life.
Also even if all of did drive when we where 15 does that make it ok for him to do it because we did? and If we did drive when we where 15 and hit a boy would it be this 15yr old fault?
He Got in the car, drove the car, and hit the boy. It was a decision he made of course he is going to have to deal with that the rest of he's life.
Also even if all of did drive when we where 15 does that make it ok for him to do it because we did? and If we did drive when we where 15 and hit a boy would it be this 15yr old fault?
@ultralight - I wonder sometimes if anybody even knows what the word accident means. Everyone is always trying to put blame on someone. Let's look at it logically. The boy was 15, but because he was on private roads he was not driving illegally. The child got hit. He was riding in the middle of the road. Is that the safest place for the kid to be? No. Looks like both sides were allowing their children to do things that were not the safest or the smartest. Again, this is an accident and no laws were broken. No crimal charges are going to be filed.
@cajmdj123 - no, this 15 year old wasn't drunk. that doesn't make a bit of difference. I know when I was 15 I knew not to drive. My parents taught me to obey the law of the land. I never drove until I had my driver's license. That being said, this 15 year old should not be exempt from the law. Whether or not he/she killed a child, he/she should be punished for driving without a license. On a new note, accidents happen and people still have to pay for them. I T-boned a vehicle once and even though it was unintentional, I paid for it. This 15 year old needs to pay for what he/she did. The parents of this 4 year old child need justice. No, it's not smart to just let a 4 year old ride a bike out on the street, or even on the sidewalk -(my sister hit a kid on a bike who was on the sidewalk)- but that is not against the law! The parents have obviously learned their lesson. But this 15 year old child needs to learn that there are negative consequences for disobeying the law!
@katiejo1103 - So you are saying you never drove around a school or church parking lot with your parents or a teacher and you didn't drive on the road with a teacher before you were 16? There are exceptions that allow people to drive without a license. One of those exceptions is on PRIVATE PROPERTY. Guess what, those streets are all private property not public streets so he was not breaking the law. It was no more against the law for the 15 year old to be driving the car on the private road than it was for the 4 year old to be riding his bike there. It's time to put away your pitchfork, torch and rope.
@LeftisntRight - Yes, when I was learning to drive I did it in a parking lot, under adult supervision, and when others showed up the lesson was over.
This kid was allowed to drive on "public" roads, without insurance, without his parents supervision, without a license. The way I see it the driver was the only one legally bound to have adult supervision at the time of the accident.
I also never bugged the crap out of my parents to drive. I understood the word NO, its a pretty simple two letter word that means NO. There is only one meaning to that word at our house.
This kid was allowed to drive on "public" roads, without insurance, without his parents supervision, without a license. The way I see it the driver was the only one legally bound to have adult supervision at the time of the accident.
I also never bugged the crap out of my parents to drive. I understood the word NO, its a pretty simple two letter word that means NO. There is only one meaning to that word at our house.
@oliver clothesoff - Please tell me what the difference is between driving on private property (in a parking lot) as you did and driving on private property (on a private road) as he did in the eyes of the law? Where you insured on the car when you drove on private property before 16? Did you have a license? Unfortunately there is no legal requirement for someone underage to have parental supervision when in a vehicle on private property. Is it wise, certainly. Will it be a factor in the civil law suit, absolutely. Should we have a law requiring it, probably. Is it a law now, no. As many of my posts have stated, I disagree with how the HOA residents in SS have allowed this to happen. But because all of those hundreds of adults have chosen that this be the law (or lack thereof) for their community, we can't go back and go after this teen now for the poor choices of the adults there.
@cajmdj123 - who says the boy even HAS a guilty conscience? We are assuming he feels bad, I live with a 15 yr old and they are more reckless and non-caring than we like to believe. We all would like to hope that he feels bad, but we can't speak for him. Like someone else previously mentioned he could be some spoiled little brat thats probably begging his parents to drive right now and thinks he can get away with it. FYI.... its not hard for someone to get away with driving a vehicle without a license. We can ask to have his driving privledges taken away for a long time but just because he doesn't go down to the DLD and get one, doesn't mean he won't be driving. Of course the 15 year old didn't intentionally hit the little boy, but he also did not look for anything in his surroundings. Therefore he IS responsiible for his immature actions and needs to suffer the consequences. Maybe not by being skinned, or ran over, but he does deserve to spend some time locked away. Then maybe he could have plenty of time to think about the next time he decides to drive and realize that he better not run somebody over and kill them or he will be sitting there again. Its said that the law can't do much as far as citing the boy. These people are very selfish to think its better to not have a cop patrol the area and be able to cite people, and to be able to ride their ATV's all over. What IS this world coming to? Play before responsibility?! This child should be punished by the law and pay for his actions. THEN maybe he will feel guilty enough to not want to get in a car again and drive without mind. As for the parents being responsible... Both are. I am not saying the parents of the 4 year old boy were irresponsible, what I am saying is that a little more precaution should have been taken. What is a 4 year old boy doing walking someone to a bus stop across the road anyways if that is what he was doing? And as for the 15 year old boy, what were they thinking not putting their keys in a better place from the boy after once having been informed of him driving? They should be punished as well. Maybe not as severe as th 15 year old because he is the one that decided to drive, but because THEY didn't take any extra care in keeping up the keys. As is the 14 year old girl that ran over a kid, her mother was punished for letting her drive. It may not be the same situation, HOWEVER these parents of the 15 year old boy did not do their job as parents either... that is my 2 cents for once...
we have teenagers and older that drive the residential street i live on going 40 mph and sometimes faster, the speed limit is 25 .. i keep worrying that something like this is going to happen on 8150 west .. it's only a matter of time.
there are lots of small children that live on this street and i cringe every time i see a car speeding past my house. a lot are adults hurrying way to fast to get home or to work .. i am so careful where ever i drive, watching out for the little ones .. SLOW DOWN PEOPLE!! SLOW DOWN!! AND GET RID OF YOUR CELL PHONES WHILE DRIVING!!
there are lots of small children that live on this street and i cringe every time i see a car speeding past my house. a lot are adults hurrying way to fast to get home or to work .. i am so careful where ever i drive, watching out for the little ones .. SLOW DOWN PEOPLE!! SLOW DOWN!! AND GET RID OF YOUR CELL PHONES WHILE DRIVING!!
@River7 - was not off topic .. it was an accident .. it could happen to anyone or anyone's child NOT paying attention .. IT IS A REMINDER TO US ALL THAT DRIVE NO MATTER HOW OLD YOU ARE! well at least the smart ones ..
just because it does not fit in with all the hate mongrels here doesn't mean it's OFF topic.
just because it does not fit in with all the hate mongrels here doesn't mean it's OFF topic.
This teenager should face charges in this case because it shouldn't matter whether he shot, stabbed, or ran over this child with a car the punishment should be the same and it should be severe. Also the parents of the teen should be equally charged with the crime for they are equally responsible for the death of this child.
@Mike W. - I believe kids can turn out completely opposite from what they learn at home. None of us know the whole story about what happened, or why this 15 year old had access to car keys even after being warned for driving without a license. But I think before people jump to conclusions about the parents being just as much to blame, think about all those good parents out there raising hooligans. It happens all the time. This kid wasn't 5, he/she was 15. Very capable of thinking on his/her own and doing whatever he/she wanted. I think this kid should be charged for driving w/o a license as well as killing this poor child, and if the courts decide the parents are to blame partly, then i believe they should be charged as well.
It is a sad thing to read such judgmental and mean comments about either side of this horrible tragedy. I am a parent, and I almost lost a sister in a car accident where I was driving and deemed at fault. The guilt and anguish that I felt at almost killing another person was torture enough. I can't even imagine the pain and suffering that both families involved are feeling at this time. My heart goes out to all involved and I pray that they will have the support and love that they all need to get through this trial.
this 15 years needs to be punished put in youth DT where he can learn to be responsible for his actions. And not be able to get his DL until 21. However his parents that are allowing him to drive need to take responsibility for his actions also, restitution and parenting classes and maybe some prison time for them severed separately so they can take care of their other kids if they have them.
Years ago while working in an emergency room, I saw a 5 year old brought in dead. He was riding his bike and had ridden out into the street in the path of a 16 year old licensed driver in a truck. It was a complete accident; the teen was not charged. In fact the police officers were very kind and concerned for the teen.
The next day, the teen was brought in, DOA. He couldn't stand the only 24 hours of the pain and horror he felt for the accident and he shot himself.
I hope that the perpetrator of this accident is appropriately remorseful. I hope he DOES remember what he did for the rest of his life. I do not wish him to be skinned or run over or especially not to suicide. I do hope that perhaps the roads in this neighborhood become real roads and I hope there is some form of punishment for the 15 y/o for this second offense.
That said, I feel sad for both families. I have to agree that 4 yr olds do not belong in streets, and I imagine that family's grief will be hard.
May their community rally around both families and give them love.
The next day, the teen was brought in, DOA. He couldn't stand the only 24 hours of the pain and horror he felt for the accident and he shot himself.
I hope that the perpetrator of this accident is appropriately remorseful. I hope he DOES remember what he did for the rest of his life. I do not wish him to be skinned or run over or especially not to suicide. I do hope that perhaps the roads in this neighborhood become real roads and I hope there is some form of punishment for the 15 y/o for this second offense.
That said, I feel sad for both families. I have to agree that 4 yr olds do not belong in streets, and I imagine that family's grief will be hard.
May their community rally around both families and give them love.
I am wondering if the area this happened is anything like the townhome development I live in. The garages are flush with the communal driveways, kids play in the garages on their bikes, and ride out into the driveway, but people like to "gun it" down the driveways because they are straight and can't see into the garages (any kids are playing, etc). I know if I see a garage open I go about 5 mph because little kids come shooting out of garages all of the time. And they are too young to have the forethought that a car might be coming at 35 mph or even 5 mph. Naturally that doesn't take the responsibility away from anyone, I would think it would just ADD to it. I have been begging my HOA for speed bumps for months now for that very reason.
So, if it's a situation like that, you couple inexperience with limited visibility and you have a tragic situation.
So, if it's a situation like that, you couple inexperience with limited visibility and you have a tragic situation.
@Mofaux - probably almost double the width of a standard residential street. It kind of meanders or curves though the neighborhood. Speed limit is 30mph. Occasionally, young kids who think they're immortal and nothing bad is going to happen to them or to anyone else, go through there at excessive speeds but not often enough to be considered an out of control problem. This particular incident was just an accident from what I understand. I wasn't there. I can't help but believe that an older more experienced driver would have been more cautious given there was a shcool bus in the road and a number of children and adults around.
What is the 15 year old boy was 16? What if he was 45? What if he had a license to drive? What would happen to him? The same thing that would happen to him in under those circumstances should be the same. Because he was on private roads, like it or not, he was not braking the law. It was like he had a license. It was a horrible accident, but it was just that. The boy probably does need to have some sort of punishment, but being in prison for the rest of his life is not the correct one.
public |ˈpəblik|
adjective
1 of or concerning the people as a whole : public concern | public affairs.
• open to or shared by all the people of an area or country : a public library.
• of or provided by the government rather than an independent, commercial company : public spending.
• of or involved in the affairs of the community, esp. in government : his public career was destroyed by tenacious reporters.
• known to many people; famous : a public figure.
2 done, perceived, or existing in open view : he wanted a public apology in the Wall Street Journal | we should talk somewhere less public.
3 Brit. of, for, or acting for a university : public examination results.
It all depends on how you define public.
adjective
1 of or concerning the people as a whole : public concern | public affairs.
• open to or shared by all the people of an area or country : a public library.
• of or provided by the government rather than an independent, commercial company : public spending.
• of or involved in the affairs of the community, esp. in government : his public career was destroyed by tenacious reporters.
• known to many people; famous : a public figure.
2 done, perceived, or existing in open view : he wanted a public apology in the Wall Street Journal | we should talk somewhere less public.
3 Brit. of, for, or acting for a university : public examination results.
It all depends on how you define public.
@x11x - I prefer to use state law since that is what we are talking about.
41-6a-214. Quasi-public roads and parking areas -- Local ordinances.
(1) As used in this section, "quasi-public road or parking area" means a privately owned and maintained road or parking area that is generally held open for use of the public for purposes of vehicular travel or parking.
(2) (a) Any municipality or county may by ordinance provide that a quasi-public road or parking area within the municipality or county is subject to this chapter.
(b) An ordinance may not be enacted under this section without:
(i) a public hearing; and
(ii) the agreement of a majority of the owners of the quasi-public road or parking area involved.
(3) This section:
(a) supercedes conflicting provisions under Section 41-6a-215;
(b) does not require a peace officer to patrol or enforce any provisions of this chapter on any quasi-public road or parking area; or
(c) does not affect the duty of a peace officer to enforce those provisions of this chapter applicable to private property other than under this section.
Maybe that will help you. As I have said before, until the majority of residents of that area agree to have the city pass an ordinance making those roads subject to state traffic law, it is NOT illegal for anyone and everyone to drive there. I have actually seen 10 year olds drive on those roads and there is nothing illegal about it, unfortunately. But that is the residents fault.
41-6a-214. Quasi-public roads and parking areas -- Local ordinances.
(1) As used in this section, "quasi-public road or parking area" means a privately owned and maintained road or parking area that is generally held open for use of the public for purposes of vehicular travel or parking.
(2) (a) Any municipality or county may by ordinance provide that a quasi-public road or parking area within the municipality or county is subject to this chapter.
(b) An ordinance may not be enacted under this section without:
(i) a public hearing; and
(ii) the agreement of a majority of the owners of the quasi-public road or parking area involved.
(3) This section:
(a) supercedes conflicting provisions under Section 41-6a-215;
(b) does not require a peace officer to patrol or enforce any provisions of this chapter on any quasi-public road or parking area; or
(c) does not affect the duty of a peace officer to enforce those provisions of this chapter applicable to private property other than under this section.
Maybe that will help you. As I have said before, until the majority of residents of that area agree to have the city pass an ordinance making those roads subject to state traffic law, it is NOT illegal for anyone and everyone to drive there. I have actually seen 10 year olds drive on those roads and there is nothing illegal about it, unfortunately. But that is the residents fault.
@LeftisntRight - What ordinance did the HOA have in place regarding driving? If none, State Law by default.
The only thing I pick up from 41-6a-214 is that peace officers are not required to patrol private roads, and, any changes in driving laws other than those set forth by the State must have been, in "the agreement of a majority of the owners of the quasi-public road or parking area involved." So unless there are specific ordinances spelled and written out regarding driving laws in the HOA State law would be in effect.
If a public school bus is driving on a privately HOA owned road and no written notice was given to the bus driver or his superiors regarding different driving laws, it can be assumed that the HOA and its residents are abiding by State driving laws.
If someone dies as a result of your negligence you cannot use "but it was on private property" as a defense. The state can take the whole "driving issue" out of the picture and still have a case. Negligent Homicide has nothing to do with a particular instrument such as a car, so driving aside, was this a "negligent" act?
The only thing I pick up from 41-6a-214 is that peace officers are not required to patrol private roads, and, any changes in driving laws other than those set forth by the State must have been, in "the agreement of a majority of the owners of the quasi-public road or parking area involved." So unless there are specific ordinances spelled and written out regarding driving laws in the HOA State law would be in effect.
If a public school bus is driving on a privately HOA owned road and no written notice was given to the bus driver or his superiors regarding different driving laws, it can be assumed that the HOA and its residents are abiding by State driving laws.
If someone dies as a result of your negligence you cannot use "but it was on private property" as a defense. The state can take the whole "driving issue" out of the picture and still have a case. Negligent Homicide has nothing to do with a particular instrument such as a car, so driving aside, was this a "negligent" act?
@x11x - It is a matter of negligence. It is not a matter or an unlicensed driver, but that is what everyone is trying to say.
@jmgourley - So what if he had no license, that is only one factor of many in this case.
Any experienced driver knows, and every driver should know:
School Bus = pay extra close attention and make no assumptions about the coast being clear, extra caution is to be employed. They are big, bright yellow and hard to miss, in fact, it can be argued, that hitting a child within x yards of a school bus is Negligent, licensed or not, the no license only enhances the negligence.
I would be extremely surprised if no charges are brought in this case, license or no license.
This case hinges on Negligence not "License".
People acted in negligence whether it be, one teen, his parents, or the whole community, is for prosecutors to decide.
Any experienced driver knows, and every driver should know:
School Bus = pay extra close attention and make no assumptions about the coast being clear, extra caution is to be employed. They are big, bright yellow and hard to miss, in fact, it can be argued, that hitting a child within x yards of a school bus is Negligent, licensed or not, the no license only enhances the negligence.
I would be extremely surprised if no charges are brought in this case, license or no license.
This case hinges on Negligence not "License".
People acted in negligence whether it be, one teen, his parents, or the whole community, is for prosecutors to decide.
@x11x - (2) (a) Any municipality or county may by ordinance provide that a quasi-public road or parking area within the municipality or county is subject to this chapter.
It clearly states that a city my create an ordinance making private roads subject to the state traffic laws. This clearly means that if the city hasn't created this ordinance then the private roads are NOT subject to state traffic laws. Where did you get in the code that if the owner of private property does not write his own traffic laws then state laws are by default in effect? That would violate every tenant of our law all the way through the US Constitution. You mention the school bus and state it is the responsibility of the HOA to inform the driver of their rules. The exact opposite is true. It is the responsibility of the visitor to someone elses private property to obtain permission and receive conditions from the property owner. You are not required to be standing guard on your property 24/7 to give rules and conditions to someone who may, in effect, trespass.
You then switched to the concept of "negligence". This is a conpletely seperate matter. The definition of negligence under 76-2-103 is:
(4) With criminal negligence or is criminally negligent with respect to circumstances surrounding his conduct or the result of his conduct when he ought to be aware of a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the circumstances exist or the result will occur. The risk must be of a nature and degree that the failure to perceive it constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that an ordinary person would exercise in all the circumstances as viewed from the actor's standpoint.
It would have to be proven that the 15 year old and/or his parents should have been aware that there was "substantial and unjustifiable risk" that someone would be killed or seriously injured. It would also have to be proven that the risk of killing someone was so obvious that everyone else in the community recognized it and the teen and his parents failed to. Now if there was some act of driving that a trained and licensed driver would recognize then there would be a case. The only way I could see that it might qualify as a negligent act is if the bus were stopped with all of its lights and signs going and the teen disregarded them, or something similar.
It clearly states that a city my create an ordinance making private roads subject to the state traffic laws. This clearly means that if the city hasn't created this ordinance then the private roads are NOT subject to state traffic laws. Where did you get in the code that if the owner of private property does not write his own traffic laws then state laws are by default in effect? That would violate every tenant of our law all the way through the US Constitution. You mention the school bus and state it is the responsibility of the HOA to inform the driver of their rules. The exact opposite is true. It is the responsibility of the visitor to someone elses private property to obtain permission and receive conditions from the property owner. You are not required to be standing guard on your property 24/7 to give rules and conditions to someone who may, in effect, trespass.
You then switched to the concept of "negligence". This is a conpletely seperate matter. The definition of negligence under 76-2-103 is:
(4) With criminal negligence or is criminally negligent with respect to circumstances surrounding his conduct or the result of his conduct when he ought to be aware of a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the circumstances exist or the result will occur. The risk must be of a nature and degree that the failure to perceive it constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that an ordinary person would exercise in all the circumstances as viewed from the actor's standpoint.
It would have to be proven that the 15 year old and/or his parents should have been aware that there was "substantial and unjustifiable risk" that someone would be killed or seriously injured. It would also have to be proven that the risk of killing someone was so obvious that everyone else in the community recognized it and the teen and his parents failed to. Now if there was some act of driving that a trained and licensed driver would recognize then there would be a case. The only way I could see that it might qualify as a negligent act is if the bus were stopped with all of its lights and signs going and the teen disregarded them, or something similar.
@LeftisntRight - If you are the prosecutor than no charges will be filed, I'm not, but if I was, they would be.
I believe your twisting it. If you are allowing 10-year-olds to drive in your neighborhood, and there is no gate, no sign, no written agreement that states such, that would inform unknowing people, school bus drivers, utility workers, or even the people who live there, TO BEWARE, Then you do not have a leg to stand on in a court of law. THATS MY OPINION I COULD BE WRONG.
What if I lived in a private community where we allowed anyone age five and up to carry pistols and shoot them off whenever the so chose, And then someone gets shot and dies but there was no written agreement between the residents regarding when, where, and how the 5-year-olds could use their pistols, there were no signs warning people coming into the community that we allowed random gun fire in our neighborhood and shots could go off at anytime, its not a gated community so anybody could mistakenly wander in there, I mean for real Left!!!!
I believe the State definition of "Negligence" sums it exactly, and is written all over this case
Because the community has no defined and set apart driving laws or rules does not mean negligence simply disappears through the HOA, IN FACT exactly the opposite happens IT FALLS ON THE PERSON(S) WHO IS COMMITTING THE ACT TO USE GOOD JUDGMENT AND TO NOT ACT IN A NEGLIGENT MANNER.
TO ANSWER ONE LAST QUESTION OF YOURS YOU ASKED:
"Where did you get in the code that if the owner of private property does not write his own traffic laws then state laws are by default in effect?"
A: There is no code but your argument is using hearsay with no solid evidence as to what has been agreed upon by the residents of that community. Maybe the majority did not want unlicensed drivers on the road, maybe police records show that many calls were made to report underage driving in that community, Show us records of your pubic hearing in which the majority agreed to allowing underage driving.
You think there was no crime
I think there was
Neither opinion is of any more value than the other since it is in the States hands.
End of story.
I believe your twisting it. If you are allowing 10-year-olds to drive in your neighborhood, and there is no gate, no sign, no written agreement that states such, that would inform unknowing people, school bus drivers, utility workers, or even the people who live there, TO BEWARE, Then you do not have a leg to stand on in a court of law. THATS MY OPINION I COULD BE WRONG.
What if I lived in a private community where we allowed anyone age five and up to carry pistols and shoot them off whenever the so chose, And then someone gets shot and dies but there was no written agreement between the residents regarding when, where, and how the 5-year-olds could use their pistols, there were no signs warning people coming into the community that we allowed random gun fire in our neighborhood and shots could go off at anytime, its not a gated community so anybody could mistakenly wander in there, I mean for real Left!!!!
I believe the State definition of "Negligence" sums it exactly, and is written all over this case
Because the community has no defined and set apart driving laws or rules does not mean negligence simply disappears through the HOA, IN FACT exactly the opposite happens IT FALLS ON THE PERSON(S) WHO IS COMMITTING THE ACT TO USE GOOD JUDGMENT AND TO NOT ACT IN A NEGLIGENT MANNER.
TO ANSWER ONE LAST QUESTION OF YOURS YOU ASKED:
"Where did you get in the code that if the owner of private property does not write his own traffic laws then state laws are by default in effect?"
A: There is no code but your argument is using hearsay with no solid evidence as to what has been agreed upon by the residents of that community. Maybe the majority did not want unlicensed drivers on the road, maybe police records show that many calls were made to report underage driving in that community, Show us records of your pubic hearing in which the majority agreed to allowing underage driving.
You think there was no crime
I think there was
Neither opinion is of any more value than the other since it is in the States hands.
End of story.
@x11x - I just want to clarify that, this was clearly a non-malicious act, there is no way I believe this teen should be thrown into the fire.
@x11x - Under our constitution the government must show a significant public interest before restricting an individual's rights (this includes their rights as a property owner). When they create laws impacting a property owner they are also forced to be as minimally impacting on the owners rights as possible to accomplish the public interest. The state has done that in this case by creating a mechanism for property owners to approve traffic enforcement on their property. The property owners have chosen not to. (Not hearsay, I have spoken to the HOA leadership personally when I was still there about this exact issue and warned them that this type of thing was eventually going to happen. My other statements have been reflecting the response I received from them.)
You make the assertion that in the absence of codified rules by a property owner that state and local laws are by default in effect. So by your logic, since Utah has the Clean Air Act restricting people from smoking in buildings and I have failed to write a set of rules allowing my relatives to smoke in my house, they are breaking the law and should be cited. Continuing your logic, every property owner and owners association is now a recognized government in their own right. They have the power to write, enforce, judge and sentence people. Wrong. Any rule they create is voluntary (that's why they have HOA agreements) and violations of those rules can only be dealt with in civil courts as a breach of the agreement. Law enforcement also has no authority to enforce those civil agreements. So even if the SS HOA had rules preventing 15 year olds from driving, IT'S STILL NOT ILLEGAL AND STILL CAN'T BE ENFORCED. The HOA could at best try to fine the parents and take them to civil court for violating the HOA agreement.
You will be surprised to know that in some situations your sarcastic attempt at an example of 5 year olds with guns is perfectly legal. Handguns are illegal for anyone under the age of 18, anywhere, anytime by law. But rifles and shotguns aren't. Most cities ban discharging weapons within city limits. They can do this because of the high density and generally small property size vs the range of the weapons. By state law a 5 year old can carry a firearm (not handgun) as long as he is accompanied by a responsible adult (76-10-509). Thats it. The only requirement. Ouside the cities he can shoot that gun as much as he wants as long as he is 600 feet from residences, livestock, farm machinery, power lines state parks, developed beaches, etc without permission of the property owner. And guess what, NO SIGNS. It's your responsibility to know the laws that are enacted, not everyone elses responsibility to tell you what the law is. So if you want to sit on the porch of your property and watch your 5 year old run around with a loaded gun, no problem. Not smart, but not illegal. Now if he does shoot someone, your actions may fall under the criminal definition of reckless depending on the circumstances, but it is not automatically assumed you are reckless just because it happened. (Just as in this case there may be some act of the 15 year old that could be criminally negligent or reckless, but him simply driving doesn't qualify.) There is a big difference between a 5 year old and a 15 year old, too. Give a 15 year old that same rifle and if someone gets shot there is almost no chance of the parent being found criminally reckless (at 15 the parent doesn't even need to be with the armed teen, just have given permission).
You argue negligence. But keep in mind there is a difference between the standards for criminally negligent and civilly negligent. There are many things where you can be held financially liable in a civil court because of being "negligent" that you cannot be held criminally responsible for. You appear to be unaware of that difference. In this case the parent's and teen will likely be found civilly liable. Depending on the exact details of what happened (which no one but the law enforcement people involved really knows) there may or may not be any criminal liability. You will note the report said the case was being reviewed by the attorney for possible charges. 95% of the time that means the cops couldn't find anything to charge but were having the prosecutors double check (and take responsibilty for not charging).
You make the assertion that in the absence of codified rules by a property owner that state and local laws are by default in effect. So by your logic, since Utah has the Clean Air Act restricting people from smoking in buildings and I have failed to write a set of rules allowing my relatives to smoke in my house, they are breaking the law and should be cited. Continuing your logic, every property owner and owners association is now a recognized government in their own right. They have the power to write, enforce, judge and sentence people. Wrong. Any rule they create is voluntary (that's why they have HOA agreements) and violations of those rules can only be dealt with in civil courts as a breach of the agreement. Law enforcement also has no authority to enforce those civil agreements. So even if the SS HOA had rules preventing 15 year olds from driving, IT'S STILL NOT ILLEGAL AND STILL CAN'T BE ENFORCED. The HOA could at best try to fine the parents and take them to civil court for violating the HOA agreement.
You will be surprised to know that in some situations your sarcastic attempt at an example of 5 year olds with guns is perfectly legal. Handguns are illegal for anyone under the age of 18, anywhere, anytime by law. But rifles and shotguns aren't. Most cities ban discharging weapons within city limits. They can do this because of the high density and generally small property size vs the range of the weapons. By state law a 5 year old can carry a firearm (not handgun) as long as he is accompanied by a responsible adult (76-10-509). Thats it. The only requirement. Ouside the cities he can shoot that gun as much as he wants as long as he is 600 feet from residences, livestock, farm machinery, power lines state parks, developed beaches, etc without permission of the property owner. And guess what, NO SIGNS. It's your responsibility to know the laws that are enacted, not everyone elses responsibility to tell you what the law is. So if you want to sit on the porch of your property and watch your 5 year old run around with a loaded gun, no problem. Not smart, but not illegal. Now if he does shoot someone, your actions may fall under the criminal definition of reckless depending on the circumstances, but it is not automatically assumed you are reckless just because it happened. (Just as in this case there may be some act of the 15 year old that could be criminally negligent or reckless, but him simply driving doesn't qualify.) There is a big difference between a 5 year old and a 15 year old, too. Give a 15 year old that same rifle and if someone gets shot there is almost no chance of the parent being found criminally reckless (at 15 the parent doesn't even need to be with the armed teen, just have given permission).
You argue negligence. But keep in mind there is a difference between the standards for criminally negligent and civilly negligent. There are many things where you can be held financially liable in a civil court because of being "negligent" that you cannot be held criminally responsible for. You appear to be unaware of that difference. In this case the parent's and teen will likely be found civilly liable. Depending on the exact details of what happened (which no one but the law enforcement people involved really knows) there may or may not be any criminal liability. You will note the report said the case was being reviewed by the attorney for possible charges. 95% of the time that means the cops couldn't find anything to charge but were having the prosecutors double check (and take responsibilty for not charging).
@x11x - By the way,
"You think there was no crime
I think there was
Neither opinion is of any more value than the other since it is in the States hands."
Some opinions are more educated than others though on what constitutes criminal conduct.
States hands = my hands, just not in this case.
"You think there was no crime
I think there was
Neither opinion is of any more value than the other since it is in the States hands."
Some opinions are more educated than others though on what constitutes criminal conduct.
States hands = my hands, just not in this case.
@LeftisntRight - You, nor I, have all the facts in this case so we are both just speculating. I understand that he was on private property and just about every point you are trying to make.
I'll tell you what concerns me though, You just stated
"States hands = my hands, just not in this case."
If this is a claim that you are a States attorney or Prosecutor or whatever, I find it to be the height of bad form for you to be on any public blog, making any comments or claims in regards to an ongoing case, still under review by your peers.
You also said,
"You will note the report said the case was being reviewed by the attorney for possible charges. 95% of the time that means the cops couldn't find anything to charge but were having the prosecutors double check (and take responsibilty for not charging)."
The word "were" in conjunction with your previous statement leads me to believe that you might be [no swearing please]Police Officer?
I don't know what role you play in this but apparently it is a very personal one!
I may not be as "educated" as you in criminal conduct? I never made that claim, I only presented my opinion, based solely on the holes I see in this case, using only the information provided by KSL. Your opinion or, "interpretation of the law" is not as bullet proof as you make it out to be either. I'm standing on that, knowing full well I could be wrong.
I think I explained how I felt about the teen driver down towards the bottom of this page so I won't do it again here.
What I want to say is, if you do have a personal interest in this case, you are doing no favors to those involved by arguing the case here with me, lets just agree to disagree, and leave it to the prosecutors to decide.
(the different screen name is because I was already logged on)
I'll tell you what concerns me though, You just stated
"States hands = my hands, just not in this case."
If this is a claim that you are a States attorney or Prosecutor or whatever, I find it to be the height of bad form for you to be on any public blog, making any comments or claims in regards to an ongoing case, still under review by your peers.
You also said,
"You will note the report said the case was being reviewed by the attorney for possible charges. 95% of the time that means the cops couldn't find anything to charge but were having the prosecutors double check (and take responsibilty for not charging)."
The word "were" in conjunction with your previous statement leads me to believe that you might be [no swearing please]Police Officer?
I don't know what role you play in this but apparently it is a very personal one!
I may not be as "educated" as you in criminal conduct? I never made that claim, I only presented my opinion, based solely on the holes I see in this case, using only the information provided by KSL. Your opinion or, "interpretation of the law" is not as bullet proof as you make it out to be either. I'm standing on that, knowing full well I could be wrong.
I think I explained how I felt about the teen driver down towards the bottom of this page so I won't do it again here.
What I want to say is, if you do have a personal interest in this case, you are doing no favors to those involved by arguing the case here with me, lets just agree to disagree, and leave it to the prosecutors to decide.
(the different screen name is because I was already logged on)
@A P. - I abreviated Saratoga Springs with 2 capitol S's, What that has to do with swearing I don't know?
@A P. - To start with, I can understand how that sentence could be interpreted. I originally went back and changed a couple words in it and that made the grammer worse. I probably should have used "are" rather than "were" or written it differently. I was not trying to say "we're" as you read it. Perfectly understandable though.
I am not a Saratoga Springs police officer nor am I involved in the justice system there. I do not know any of the people involved in this situation that I am aware of (I don't know who all the witnesses and cops were, I might know some). What I do have is inside knowledge of that HOA, the community and the struggle over several years to try to prevent this exact trajedy. I also freely admit my frustration and "personal interest" with the short sighted selfishness of the residents there who created the situation leading to this child's death. I couldn't change it and I'm glad I left SS a couple years ago. I, quite frankly, don't care what the criminal and civil consequences are in this. What I hope comes of all the comments I made here and the discussion about private roads is that; 1) the residents of SS will finally correct the problem using the laws available to them and 2) citizens elsewhere in the state will call for changes to the laws so that this sort of thing can be prevented. If that's "bad form", too damn bad.
Your comment seems to say that because I am involved in the criminal justice system that I do not have the right to speak my mind on something that struck home as this did. It is in no way improper for me to speak my mind about a case I have no involvement or inside knowledge of. If my peers can't handle me posting excerpts from the state code on a blog so that people can read the law for themselves, then they need to get out of the profession. Any member of the system who relies on the ignorance of the citizens in order to to his job is a disgrace. I saw a lot of uneducated and ignorant comments being made by people completely unfamiliar with the law. Excuse me for trying to educate others who can't even read and understand the code when it is cut and pasted here for them. BTW it was you who demanded I legitimize the points I was making with some sort of proof of my knowledge.
I am not a Saratoga Springs police officer nor am I involved in the justice system there. I do not know any of the people involved in this situation that I am aware of (I don't know who all the witnesses and cops were, I might know some). What I do have is inside knowledge of that HOA, the community and the struggle over several years to try to prevent this exact trajedy. I also freely admit my frustration and "personal interest" with the short sighted selfishness of the residents there who created the situation leading to this child's death. I couldn't change it and I'm glad I left SS a couple years ago. I, quite frankly, don't care what the criminal and civil consequences are in this. What I hope comes of all the comments I made here and the discussion about private roads is that; 1) the residents of SS will finally correct the problem using the laws available to them and 2) citizens elsewhere in the state will call for changes to the laws so that this sort of thing can be prevented. If that's "bad form", too damn bad.
Your comment seems to say that because I am involved in the criminal justice system that I do not have the right to speak my mind on something that struck home as this did. It is in no way improper for me to speak my mind about a case I have no involvement or inside knowledge of. If my peers can't handle me posting excerpts from the state code on a blog so that people can read the law for themselves, then they need to get out of the profession. Any member of the system who relies on the ignorance of the citizens in order to to his job is a disgrace. I saw a lot of uneducated and ignorant comments being made by people completely unfamiliar with the law. Excuse me for trying to educate others who can't even read and understand the code when it is cut and pasted here for them. BTW it was you who demanded I legitimize the points I was making with some sort of proof of my knowledge.
@LeftisntRight - And I did not want to post again just to clarify for the 3rd time, My bad.
I see both sides of this I really do. But liability almost never just evaporates into thin air, this is why I believe charges will be filed???????
It would not surprise me in the least if no charges are filed, However, I would expect to see legislation thats changes laws such as these in the near future. Utah is not the open farmland it once used to be
I see both sides of this I really do. But liability almost never just evaporates into thin air, this is why I believe charges will be filed???????
It would not surprise me in the least if no charges are filed, However, I would expect to see legislation thats changes laws such as these in the near future. Utah is not the open farmland it once used to be
When I lived in Bountiful, my little brother in law was caught riding a dirt bike on the street without a license. He had to appear before a judge, pay a fine, and was warned that if he was caught operating a motor vehicle of ANY type without a license again, his drivers license privileges would be postponed until he was 18 years old.
I feel terrible for the family and even for the young man who ran over the child. I think a more strict interpretation of the law in cases like this saves lives. Currently I live in Saratoga Springs and there is a constant battle in our neighborhood over parents letting their children ride ATVs on the street without adult supervision. The police have been here multiple times warning kids and parents but as soon as they drive away the ATVs are back on the street. How long before another tragic accident....who knows? but odds are it will happen again.
I feel terrible for the family and even for the young man who ran over the child. I think a more strict interpretation of the law in cases like this saves lives. Currently I live in Saratoga Springs and there is a constant battle in our neighborhood over parents letting their children ride ATVs on the street without adult supervision. The police have been here multiple times warning kids and parents but as soon as they drive away the ATVs are back on the street. How long before another tragic accident....who knows? but odds are it will happen again.
@Paul M. - I wonder what kind of warning was issued. I am sure that the police hate the HOA's of America. Like they said, they are handcuffed. People who live in these areas probably think HOA's are great until something like this happens. The law was made for farmers so kids under 16 could still opperate vehicles on the farm. It was not intended for 15 year olds to be able to drive around nieghborhoods. Bottom line is these roads should be public so that police can enforce the laws of the road.
@Paul M. - If you live anywhere other than the SS Developement down by the lake (where its legal to drive 4 wheelers etc on private roads), you should complain to the city that it isn't being enforced. I can promise you that the parents of those kids have hassled the city leaders into telling the PD not to make an issue of it.
The reason your brother in law got charged is he was on a public road. The kid in this case was on a private road where public traffic laws don't apply. So warning that it isn't a good idea is about all the cops can do in the SS Developement.
If you live in the Developement, get the HOA to push a petition from a majority or residents there to have the city enact an ordinance that allows enforcement of traffic laws there. I have tried, maybe you will have better luck.
The reason your brother in law got charged is he was on a public road. The kid in this case was on a private road where public traffic laws don't apply. So warning that it isn't a good idea is about all the cops can do in the SS Developement.
If you live in the Developement, get the HOA to push a petition from a majority or residents there to have the city enact an ordinance that allows enforcement of traffic laws there. I have tried, maybe you will have better luck.
OK. So we now who the victim is, who's the teen driver? Name? Did the teen take the car without his parent's permission? Accidents DO happen and it's obvious that this was just that, an accident and all people involved will have to live with what happened forever. I wouldn't be so hard on the teen. Just a bad combination of events, driving without a license, kid on a bike that gets out on the street and tragedy. I think both families need compassion and prayer. Losing a kid like that must be absolutely awful to deal with. Utah has had its share of tragedies this summer.
that my children were raised before these terrible times. I would not want to be a parent trying to raise a teen right now. There are so many different kinds of pressures put on children and parents now days. I agree, accidents do happen and there will be a lot of suffering by both families. I feel so bad for everyone involved.
Forget about anyone who wants to be forgiving in this matter. Take the kid out and shoot him in the head. This type of repeated irresponsibilty cannot be tolerated. If killing him is too harsh, then he should be tried as an adult and sentenced to life in prison for vehiclular homicide. He doesn't deserve to live after killing someone.
Yes it is harsh, but it is absolutely how I feel. It is for reasons like this that I will never ever be put on a jury ever. ;) All I have to say is that anyone who breaks the law should be shot (myself included) and I can count on them crossing my name off the list.
Back to being extraordinarily judgemental... I still say he should be shot or hung or run over by a car or something. Kill him now before he kills another kid.
Yes it is harsh, but it is absolutely how I feel. It is for reasons like this that I will never ever be put on a jury ever. ;) All I have to say is that anyone who breaks the law should be shot (myself included) and I can count on them crossing my name off the list.
Back to being extraordinarily judgemental... I still say he should be shot or hung or run over by a car or something. Kill him now before he kills another kid.
@Joe mamma - I feel if you go out and hang yourself this would be a better world.people like you either dont have kids of your own or stalk others!!!!!!
@Joe mamma - He didn't brake the law. The road was privatley owned. A 6 year old can drive on those roads and there is nothing you can do about it.
@Joe mamma - you are an idoit!!!!!!!!! Why don't we take you out back and beat you for your stupid comments!
@Joe mamma - I'm so glad that the only opinion people can have is a merciful one I guess. I still say hang him and now I say hang all of his supporters too. And I do have kids. Three of them. One of them is 4 and I guarantee you that you wouldn't want to be the one who ran him over. I don't care if he had a license or not. You run over someone with a car trough sheer stupidity then you are guilty of vehicluar homicide in my book. Just because it is a private road doesn't give someone the right to kill people. If that is the case then I say this kid be taken to a private road and beaten to death.
@Joe mamma - The funny part is that almost everyone I meet who talks tough like you have here, actually curls up in the fetal position wimpering when faced with the reality.
@Joe mamma - It scares me to think that there are angry hateful people, like you, living in my community.
This is so sad and I deeply feel for the parents and family of this angelic 4 year old... but this tragedy could have been prevented if the underage driver had responsible parents! I don’t get it; this is what happens when (irresponsible) parents (who feel they are above the law) allow their children to outright BREAK-the-LAW! Yes, the parents need to share in the consequences of their sons actions!
What to do… I have a neighbor who allowed their son (now 19 year old) to drive at age 15. He got caught and his license was suspended until he turned 18. Would you think that these parents would have learned from this? No, now their 15 year old daughter is driving without a license. How can we keep our children safe when STUPID IRRESPONSIBLE PARENTS allow their children to break the law!
PARENTS!! WAKE UP!! Teach your children to OBEY THE LAWS OF THE LAND! If you don’t and someone gets killed then you must pay the price and suffer the consequences!
What to do… I have a neighbor who allowed their son (now 19 year old) to drive at age 15. He got caught and his license was suspended until he turned 18. Would you think that these parents would have learned from this? No, now their 15 year old daughter is driving without a license. How can we keep our children safe when STUPID IRRESPONSIBLE PARENTS allow their children to break the law!
PARENTS!! WAKE UP!! Teach your children to OBEY THE LAWS OF THE LAND! If you don’t and someone gets killed then you must pay the price and suffer the consequences!
First my prayers to everyone involved. Myself having small children living on the corner is really scary when you have people speeding taking a sharp turn , if your child is near the sidewalk, driveway, or just step off the curb to get the ball they are in danger, more danger then if the road is straight since the driver does not have time to see them. My husband has had to go track teenage drivers down and tell them face to face to stop speeding by our house. You yell as they go by but again in a day or two it happens again. In previous posts it indicated the driver was given a warning but not cited due to private property (HOA). I do not understand why private property should protect against an illegal driver? So if you are drinking and driving they cannot ticket you? That does not make sense?? So now they do anything about this driver hitting a child? It said they could not before so how are they now? Unless that was just a rumor?
@Sheila A. - Until this tragedy happened, I think most people who weren't raised in rural areas were unaware that the traffic laws only applied to public roads. Maybe there needs to be changes to the laws regarding privately owned roads like those in SS. But, right now only two offenses can be charged against a driver on private property; DUI and reckless driving. The DUI law doesn't require you to be on a road. It only requires you to be in physical control of a vehicle in the state of Utah and impaired. Reckless driving also only requires that you be operating a vehicle with wanton disregard for peoples safety. It doesn't have a requirement to be on a road for that portion.(There's a second option for reckless but it requires multiple traffic violations on a public road.) I hope that helps explain it.
Funny nothing has been said about the 15 year old being a cops kid. Ya thats right his dad is a cop in Salt Lake.
another similar situation happened in Roosevelt...
http://www.kutv.com/mostpopular/story.aspx?content_id=fbd7d49b-43f0-48c4-b331-0653fb7341c8
I feel for the parents of the young ones for their losses
http://www.kutv.com/mostpopular/story.aspx?content_id=fbd7d49b-43f0-48c4-b331-0653fb7341c8
I feel for the parents of the young ones for their losses
This 15 yr old driver was at the local grocery store yesterday - I couldn't believe he was just hanging out 24 hours after running over a child, his own neighbor. Then today he was at football practice. Does he not feel remorse? If he were my son, I would have taken my family and left town for awhile because I would have felt so terrible by the accident. At least he should not be out in public for awhile out of respect for the grieving family and friends.
@meanestmom - There are probably some legal elements to this tragedy that would prevent any form of punitive measures.
Going to football practice after running over a 4-year-old seems kind of weird to me. But, nowadays, nothing surprises me. Different breed, different generation, different attitudes.
What may be happening before our eyes: U.S.A.: A falling empire. Utah, a falling or fallen society.
Going to football practice after running over a 4-year-old seems kind of weird to me. But, nowadays, nothing surprises me. Different breed, different generation, different attitudes.
What may be happening before our eyes: U.S.A.: A falling empire. Utah, a falling or fallen society.
sounds like a great 15yr old kid! i fully expect him to grow up to be a cop.. or a criminal. they are close in intelligence, mindset, and pay. don't worry, he'll obviously grow up to be a looser anyway you look at it.
Im so sorry for the family of this little boy, But insted of releasing his name they should be releasing the name of the boy who did this. That way when hes older and wiser we can remind him what a fool is is
@Brian C. - ROOSEVELT, Utah (AP) - A mother was ordered to spend a year in prison after her 14-year-old daughter struck and killed a toddler while driving a sport utility vehicle in Roosevelt.
Nicole Rodrigues was convicted of misdemeanor negligent homicide.
The teenager, with Rodrigues in the passenger seat, ran over 22-month-old Franchesca Isabel Montes in May while pulling forward out of a driveway.
In this case, it sounds like the mother was WITH the teen, who was driving.
Nicole Rodrigues was convicted of misdemeanor negligent homicide.
The teenager, with Rodrigues in the passenger seat, ran over 22-month-old Franchesca Isabel Montes in May while pulling forward out of a driveway.
In this case, it sounds like the mother was WITH the teen, who was driving.
@Rem - The Roosevelt tragedy happened in a driveway. A driveway is private property, more so I feel than the streets of a subdivision. The aunt was in the passenger seat hoping to give her niece a supervised driving lesson. Because of the size and shape of the SUV, neither of them saw the child. Now both the aunt and the niece will pay for their horrible, fatal mistake.
While apparently absolutely nothing will happen to a young punk from Saratoga Springs, or the parents who encouraged his behavior.
I guess it's still true, MONEY TALKS.
While apparently absolutely nothing will happen to a young punk from Saratoga Springs, or the parents who encouraged his behavior.
I guess it's still true, MONEY TALKS.
@Old Redtail - Do you think money had a role or the fact that the woman was under the influence of drugs and rather than giving aid to the child ran away. I don't know the details of the charges down there but failing to give aid in an injury accident and leaving the scene usually do warrant severe charges regardless of public or private property.
@LeftisntRight - Here's the article as printed on this site:
ROOSEVELT, Utah (AP) -- A mother was ordered to spend a year in prison after her 14-year-old daughter struck and killed a toddler while driving a sport utility vehicle in Roosevelt.
Nicole Rodrigues was convicted of misdemeanor negligent homicide.
The teenager, with Rodrigues in the passenger seat, ran over 22-month-old Franchesca Isabel Montes in May while pulling forward out of a driveway.
The mother took a plea deal last month. She was originally charged with manslaughter, leaving the scene of an accident and allowing her underage daughter to drive.
The girl is charged with manslaughter in Juvenile Court.
I see no mention of drugs (and I'm sure there would have been if the cops had any indication there were drugs). Apparently she did flee the scene. How is that worse than letting your child continue to drive when the cops have already warned him not to? BTW, why was the boy in SS pulled over? Police are not allowed to pull people over without reason. The neighbors &/or the cops must have been concerned with the way he was driving.
ROOSEVELT, Utah (AP) -- A mother was ordered to spend a year in prison after her 14-year-old daughter struck and killed a toddler while driving a sport utility vehicle in Roosevelt.
Nicole Rodrigues was convicted of misdemeanor negligent homicide.
The teenager, with Rodrigues in the passenger seat, ran over 22-month-old Franchesca Isabel Montes in May while pulling forward out of a driveway.
The mother took a plea deal last month. She was originally charged with manslaughter, leaving the scene of an accident and allowing her underage daughter to drive.
The girl is charged with manslaughter in Juvenile Court.
I see no mention of drugs (and I'm sure there would have been if the cops had any indication there were drugs). Apparently she did flee the scene. How is that worse than letting your child continue to drive when the cops have already warned him not to? BTW, why was the boy in SS pulled over? Police are not allowed to pull people over without reason. The neighbors &/or the cops must have been concerned with the way he was driving.
@Old Redtail - There was a lot of mention of drugs by people who were famaliar with the the situation at the time. I admit it is only rumor, but it is a logical fit with her leaving. It also is a more logical fit as an aggrivating factor of her leaving the scene that makes her behavior criminally reckless.
You ask how is it worse than letting a child continue to drive after getting warned. Maybe it's just me but I think that leaving an injured child lying on the ground to die is just a bit worse than letting your kid continue to do something that isn't illegal even if they were warned it wasn't smart.
Are you sure that the police pulled him over. It said the police warned him, that's not necessarily the same thing. They could have receiced a complaint and stopped by his house to warn him it wasn't smart. They could have been doing traffic control on an accident when he came through and recognized him and warned him. There are also many other ways that cops can make contact with a person that dont fall under the heading of pulling them over. Everyone just assumes it was a traffic stop, it may not have been. If you do know the details, please inform us all.
Are you also sure that the parents were notified. Traffic violations do not normally require parental notification. IF he was not even commiting a traffic violation because of being on private property there would be no need at all to notify the parents. I'm not saying they weren't told. I'm also not saying he wasn't out on a public road when he was warned. These details just haven't been reported so it's not known. Once again everyone just assumes what happened and has been very judgemental of the parents and teen.
You ask how is it worse than letting a child continue to drive after getting warned. Maybe it's just me but I think that leaving an injured child lying on the ground to die is just a bit worse than letting your kid continue to do something that isn't illegal even if they were warned it wasn't smart.
Are you sure that the police pulled him over. It said the police warned him, that's not necessarily the same thing. They could have receiced a complaint and stopped by his house to warn him it wasn't smart. They could have been doing traffic control on an accident when he came through and recognized him and warned him. There are also many other ways that cops can make contact with a person that dont fall under the heading of pulling them over. Everyone just assumes it was a traffic stop, it may not have been. If you do know the details, please inform us all.
Are you also sure that the parents were notified. Traffic violations do not normally require parental notification. IF he was not even commiting a traffic violation because of being on private property there would be no need at all to notify the parents. I'm not saying they weren't told. I'm also not saying he wasn't out on a public road when he was warned. These details just haven't been reported so it's not known. Once again everyone just assumes what happened and has been very judgemental of the parents and teen.
To decide what really happened.Some of you posters are way off the subject
Lets be the bigger guy and talk smack on the next person?
Lets be the bigger guy and talk smack on the next person?
Where was the Mother of this Child that was in the street?
This is not really about the driver
This is about a baby not being cared for properly
My dogs are under constant watch, Better than this little kid
The Parents are GUILTY for the death of the baby
Especially the Mother, No intent to watch the kid
The young driver did not do this intentionally
License or not.
KSL just needs to report the news
Not cause a complaint
This is not really about the driver
This is about a baby not being cared for properly
My dogs are under constant watch, Better than this little kid
The Parents are GUILTY for the death of the baby
Especially the Mother, No intent to watch the kid
The young driver did not do this intentionally
License or not.
KSL just needs to report the news
Not cause a complaint
@Red neck - How many Judges there are on this KSL Reports
Jury want a bees?????
Law less Lawyers?
Ignorant hateful people?
It is just a matter of time, A cell is waiting for you!
Jury want a bees?????
Law less Lawyers?
Ignorant hateful people?
It is just a matter of time, A cell is waiting for you!
@Red neck - that you are a HYPOCRITE? In your first post you mention, and I quote "The Parents are GUILTY for the death of the baby",but then in your second post you notice how many "judges", or "Jury want a bees", or "law less lawyers", or "ignorant hatefule people" are on this site. So, I guess there is a cell waiting for you, as well as everyone else you are referring to.
What do you think that these 2 posts say about you?
What do you think that these 2 posts say about you?
@Red neck - Yes, let's just blame the parents of the 4 year old. That is the easy way out of this situation. Oh...wait, what is that, the mother was there? Oh boy, now who should you blame? Your comments serve you no credibility. How can you say that the mother had no intent to watch her child? You must have talked with her? Is that what she told you? Or is it that you have such a pathetic view of life that you just have to make careless comments? It is obvious that you only have dogs because you are not responsible enought to have kids...it's ok for me to make assumptions, right?
Some people are calling this an accident, to me it looks like total negligence on the part of the drivers parents, leaving access to the keys of the vehicle is the same as leaving access to a loaded gu that the teen could get a hold of and cause an "accident". Thank God that there weren't more children in this killer's path!
@Mike W. - I agree that you should not leave a loaded gun, but if you are comparing that to leaving your keys in the house then I hope you don't do that. Or leave the knife drawer unlocked because your kid could stab someone with one of those knives. Or leave a wrench or a tool bok out, your kid could whack someone over the head and kill them with that. Don't leave any matches out, he could start a fire...........
accidents happen, i wanna hear when you kid makes a mistake like that, go to he.. u judgemental idio..
its not justified but i just hate when people like you make that kind of comments,, see ya hater...
its not justified but i just hate when people like you make that kind of comments,, see ya hater...
The fifteen year old had been warned previously. In evaluating his intent, although he may not have killed the four year old intentionally, he ought to do some hard time because he knew better and rebelled against the warnings of authorities.
@Crickity Crackin - He was not given a ticket because he did not break any traffic laws. It was legal for him to drive where he was without a license because it was private land. You are only required to have a license if you are on public roads. What is more important here is that parents need to learn that the road is no place for a 4 year old to be playing. They do not understand the consequences of their actions. Parents need to keep their young kids in the yard or go play at a park.
I know the 15 year old boy you are all talking about skinning and running over and he had an , but he has more compassion and love in his little heart then all of you negative posters have in your whole body. He is broken hearted and a shell of the boy he was just a week ago, he cries at the thought of what has happened. He has not moved on and will never move on, I only hope he can cope with the consequences of his actions and try to turn his grief into something positive in the rest of his life. He, before the was a great athlete a sweet loving friend to many he is a big strong bodied boy but has always been the one to show love towards any one that was in need of it. I understand the anger some feel at what has happened, I can't say I understand the loss of the family of the 4 year old, but many of you don't understand that it was an . Some on here want to blame the 4 year olds mother, and the 15 year old, but I think the time for blame is past and the time to love and help heal is now. The two families are neighbors and love each other the rest of you can watch from the side and make all the comments you want but you should remember you are talking to, both families read these posts, a family that has lost a child and a 15 year old boy a child himself. They need support not tearing down from any of you put you in the shoes of both and I think you will see you are not helping any one. PLEASE STOP BULLYING THESE FAMILIES WITH YOUR POSTS AND PRAY FOR THEM TO HEAL, PRAY THAT THEY NEVER FORGET BUT THAT THEY MAY COME TO TERMS WITH THE AND BE ABLE TO KEEP LOVING EACH OTHER.
an innocent sweet child was killed and a 15 year old teenager/man walks scott free. at least for now. what are the odds. my heart goes out to this poor family and the pain and hurt they are suffering. and i am not god or a cop or anything like that so i am not to judge what the appropiate punishment should be. but as a starter, the laws should be changed that anyone driving in that area should be required to have a license or permit. and that the cops have the law on their side and when accidents like this happen, they can enforce the law and dish out any punishment neccessary.
ps, be sure to hug your kids today and tell them how much you love them and treasure them and are glad to have them in your life!
Is the family of the 15 year old making arrangements to pay for the medical and funeral costs? I would think it the least they could do and might help the mending of fences.
@Shaun - for medical expenses and the parents that did not supervise their 4 year old should not be held accountable for anything? A 15 year old was not breaking any traffic laws when an unsupervised 4 year old rode his bike in front of his car. I know who I hold responsible.
The mother of the 4 year old was right there and saw things as they happened. Who gave you the idea he was unsupervised. He and his mother had gone to meet the bus. He did not dart out in front of the car, the 15 year old did not see the little boy. The 4 year old's mother was there why are you crucifing her? I cannot believe the idiotic things said here about the grieveing mother.
Now having said that I also do not believe in putting the 15 year old in jail for life it was not murder. He made a very bad choice by driving unsupervised, I don't know if he had permission to drive alone or not. If he did then the parents also made a bad choice. All choices good or bad have consequences so yes the young man should pay all financial costs to the family. And there should be other consequences, I feel that he should go to all high schools in the state and talk to the students and tell them to think. I don't know, but I don't believe this young man was speeding, drunk or other wise impared other than he was in experienced and was not paying enough attention. Teens need to learn that the car is not something to be taken lightly and your full attention should be what is going on all around you. It was already explained why the police had not fined/arrested him for driving before so if you are going to blame someone other than the 15 year old, blame HOA's. I have already, long before this story, felt that HOA's are dregs on society and now we know that because of them the police did not have athority to stop the young man from driving. My thoughts and prayers have been with the family of the 4 year old and with the family of the teen who hit him as well as with the 15 year. I do not believe he is a bad person because of what has happened I don't know him, but I believe he was just a teen ager who wanted to drive. I hope that peace will come to both families.
Now having said that I also do not believe in putting the 15 year old in jail for life it was not murder. He made a very bad choice by driving unsupervised, I don't know if he had permission to drive alone or not. If he did then the parents also made a bad choice. All choices good or bad have consequences so yes the young man should pay all financial costs to the family. And there should be other consequences, I feel that he should go to all high schools in the state and talk to the students and tell them to think. I don't know, but I don't believe this young man was speeding, drunk or other wise impared other than he was in experienced and was not paying enough attention. Teens need to learn that the car is not something to be taken lightly and your full attention should be what is going on all around you. It was already explained why the police had not fined/arrested him for driving before so if you are going to blame someone other than the 15 year old, blame HOA's. I have already, long before this story, felt that HOA's are dregs on society and now we know that because of them the police did not have athority to stop the young man from driving. My thoughts and prayers have been with the family of the 4 year old and with the family of the teen who hit him as well as with the 15 year. I do not believe he is a bad person because of what has happened I don't know him, but I believe he was just a teen ager who wanted to drive. I hope that peace will come to both families.
@Valynne S. - and the mother saw the whole thing happen. Well just being in eye sight of the child does not mean he was supervised. A road is not the place for a 4 year old to be playing. And she could not have been too close to him as she was not also hit by the car. Keep your kids out of the street.
@Jason C. - ....please have a talk with your mother about what you were like when you were four.
@Old Redtail - and I know that all 4 year olds are the same. Thats why as a parent I do not let mine play in the street. Thats what yards and parks are for.
@Jason C. - They had just dropped an older child off at the bus stop. He wasn't PLAYING in the road. As the bus left, he turned to go back across the street to head home. He took off before his mother and didn't look for cars. He Wasn't PLAYING in the road. Come on people.
Is this teen will be carrying a weight around for the rest of his life, and this particular weight is far heavier a burden than most of us adults will ever face. I stand by my earlier posts in my belief that there was some negligence involved but, I do not believe he should suffer any of the punishments that have been suggested here on KSL, any punishment or sentence should be minimal, discreet, and completely removed from his record once he becomes an adult, this is not something he should have to carry around publicly for the rest of his life.
I just hope that whatever the outcome is, criminal charges or not, that he finds a way to live a life that honors the child who died, and it sounds to me, like he will. He is a 15-year-old child who made a mistake, it could have been any 15-year-old who did this and not only with a vehicle, he could just as easily been riding a bicycle and caused a death.
What has been placed before him in very real terms, is something that most of us take for granted everyday, the value of a human life.
I just hope that whatever the outcome is, criminal charges or not, that he finds a way to live a life that honors the child who died, and it sounds to me, like he will. He is a 15-year-old child who made a mistake, it could have been any 15-year-old who did this and not only with a vehicle, he could just as easily been riding a bicycle and caused a death.
What has been placed before him in very real terms, is something that most of us take for granted everyday, the value of a human life.
So remember when you were 15? it's not about breaking the law since these were private roads and aren't regulated by driver license laws on the public roads. so the 15 or 16 thing doesn't really make a difference. it's all about our thought process. this 4 year is dead because a 15 year old has a hard time thinking through consequences like an adult say 30, 50, or even 75. it is was someone older, or someone with children, they have learned to look ahead, notice movement, expece the unexpected. the 15 year old doesn't have that kind of a mindset yet. so millions of 15 year olds make lots of mistakes and millions of teenagers are so wrapped up in their own lives that they are single-minded and even probably rushing too much.
the 4 year old's mom was right there, probably would have done anything to have been able to react quick enough to realize how quick the car was moving toward her son. and even after being hit, who could imagine that the 15 year old would panic, throw it in reverse and drive right back over him. then the mother is holding her child in the street, the car has door slung wide open and a bus driver comes along and sees a little boy off a bike with just some scratches on his legs. the driver thinks he's kind of hurt as the boy lies wimpering in his mother's arms, so he calls the bus garage and asks for an ambulance and police to come out.
who could have known moments earlier that a mother would hold a dying 4 year old in her arms, hysterical that her other son had just gone to school on his birthday and they had walked him to his stop to see him off for the day.
truly, try to imagine yourself in any of there shoes. the 15 year old has been suicidal since then on 24 hour watch. don't make rude comments any longer. we've all made horrible teenage mistakes, it's just that lots of us made out with "luck" and so we didnt' reap the consequences that this teen is.
maybe the thing we could all do is pay a little more attention to the decisions we make, not get so wrapped up in our own lives that we notice what is going on around us and try to prevent accidents, slow down, help out other who weren't so lucky, and if you have children that are teens or will be soon, talk to them about the choices they make. don't let them take life for granted.
the 4 year old's mom was right there, probably would have done anything to have been able to react quick enough to realize how quick the car was moving toward her son. and even after being hit, who could imagine that the 15 year old would panic, throw it in reverse and drive right back over him. then the mother is holding her child in the street, the car has door slung wide open and a bus driver comes along and sees a little boy off a bike with just some scratches on his legs. the driver thinks he's kind of hurt as the boy lies wimpering in his mother's arms, so he calls the bus garage and asks for an ambulance and police to come out.
who could have known moments earlier that a mother would hold a dying 4 year old in her arms, hysterical that her other son had just gone to school on his birthday and they had walked him to his stop to see him off for the day.
truly, try to imagine yourself in any of there shoes. the 15 year old has been suicidal since then on 24 hour watch. don't make rude comments any longer. we've all made horrible teenage mistakes, it's just that lots of us made out with "luck" and so we didnt' reap the consequences that this teen is.
maybe the thing we could all do is pay a little more attention to the decisions we make, not get so wrapped up in our own lives that we notice what is going on around us and try to prevent accidents, slow down, help out other who weren't so lucky, and if you have children that are teens or will be soon, talk to them about the choices they make. don't let them take life for granted.
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4:07pm - Sat Aug 23rd, 2008
4:20pm - Sat Aug 23rd, 2008
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7:21pm - Sat Aug 23rd, 2008
For one thing, you don't make a plural by adding an apostrophe + S, you just add the S (so it would be Scum Balls, not Scum Ball's, and it would be blogs, not blog's).
For another, the word "proof" is a noun. I think the verb you wanted is "prove."
Finally, you misused "your." The word "your" indicates possession. Here you wanted to use "you're" which is a contraction for "you are."
Generally, I'm not a grammar cop, but when you start nitpicking about somebody else's usage, you better be sure your own usage is standard.
7:43pm - Sat Aug 23rd, 2008
8:15pm - Sat Aug 23rd, 2008
These people deserve statewide humiliation. They disgust me.
8:00am - Sun Aug 24th, 2008
11:08am - Sun Aug 24th, 2008
11:36am - Sun Aug 24th, 2008
6:44pm - Sun Aug 24th, 2008
8:17pm - Sun Aug 24th, 2008
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12:04am - Sun Aug 24th, 2008
(1) A person under 16 years of age, whether resident or nonresident of this state, may not operate a motor vehicle upon any highway of this state.
(2) This section does not apply to a person operating:
(a) a motor vehicle under a permit issued under Section 53-3-210.5;
(b) an off-highway vehicle registered under Section 41-22-3 either:
(i) on a highway designated as open for off-highway vehicle use; or
(ii) in the manner prescribed by Subsections 41-22-10.3(1) through (3); or
(c) an off-highway implement of husbandry in the manner prescribed by Subsections 41-22-5.5
A car is not a OHV state law
6:17am - Sun Aug 24th, 2008
See 41-6a-214, I posted it in another comment below.
8:55am - Sun Aug 24th, 2008
11:34am - Sun Aug 24th, 2008
9:32am - Mon Aug 25th, 2008
10:04am - Mon Aug 25th, 2008
Drivers license - required to drive on public roads
Public roads - owned, maintained and regulated by the governement
Private roads - Private property owned and maintained by individual property owners. In small, simple words for those who still don't get this... it's a really big driveway.
Since private property is not a public road the government cannot regulate who uses a vehicle on it or require licensing of the operators.
You also failed to answer the questions - when was he found guilty and of what charges? I'll even settle for what was he charged with?
8:51pm - Sat Aug 23rd, 2008
4:55pm - Sat Aug 23rd, 2008
9:07pm - Sat Aug 23rd, 2008
It is much better to be governed by established law, than the miserable mob who posts such nonsense as we see daily on this forum.
Get a grip people. Don't let your emotions rule over you.
5:10am - Sun Aug 24th, 2008
No one wants to use it in Utah
You might look up Utah State Constitution as well
Sen. Chris Christensen just passed a bill to put the Constitution in every class room 4 th grade up including a flag
He also was so ignorant of the fact that all class rooms already have a flag in them
Something to think about.
This is what we have making laws in Utah
We have a Court system that does not recognize your Constitutional rights
We have a Judicial Mis Conduct Department that does not investigate complaints about the Criminal Judges that violate our rights to a fair trial
7:12pm - Sat Aug 23rd, 2008
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8:28am - Sun Aug 24th, 2008
Do you know if the parents put the 15 year old behind the wheel? Or did the boy just take the keys and go? A 15 year old is old enough to make choices on his own. This isn't the parents' fault. You can't pin this one on anyone but the foolish 15 year old.
9:25pm - Sat Aug 23rd, 2008
10:50am - Tue Aug 26th, 2008