Bountiful City policy to restrict hiring of people with tattoos
A Bountiful resident and Salt Lake City tattoo artist says Bountiful's new ban on visible tattoos for city workers will never stand up in court. August 14th, 2008 @ 12:30pm
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Bountiful, you're headed to one big law suit! Get out the pocket book.
@Ronald D. - They can get away with this becuase it is a professional requirement. A lot of cities in the South already have this law in place. They will not hire a person who has a tatoo that is visable. You can have one on your body as long as it is covered up while you are working. They get away with it becuase they say the city employees are presenting themselves as representatives of the city and can scare people and businesses from moving into the city by their appearances.
@Emily C. - In Texas, for example; if you have an eyebrow piercing, you are expected to wear a bandaid over it. Likewise, bike gloves for those who considered it wise to put a cross on the web of their hand, or wrist wraps for those who thought it essential to get a tat on thier wrist.
If you want to look like a freak, expect to be treated like a freak. It isn't my responsibilty to adjust my life, to accomodate someone else's fetishes.
This isn't discrimination, it's the result of an immature person making stupid, permanent decisions that will negatively impact them the rest of their lives.
Tats have never helped a person get ahead in life; but they certainly have shut doors of opportunity that would have otherwise been open.
If you want to look like a freak, expect to be treated like a freak. It isn't my responsibilty to adjust my life, to accomodate someone else's fetishes.
This isn't discrimination, it's the result of an immature person making stupid, permanent decisions that will negatively impact them the rest of their lives.
Tats have never helped a person get ahead in life; but they certainly have shut doors of opportunity that would have otherwise been open.
@Hodar - Is that some cultures (the Maori's for example) look at tattoo's as art, religion and social status. Not all people who get tattoos do so because they are "freaks" or have fetishes.
@TJones - yeah like the one that Mike Tyson got real classy.
@Concernedwellwisher - Since when is Mike Tyson a Maori?
@TJones - really didn't know that a Maori gave him Moko on his face? It stirred a lot of controversary because Maori do not like doing them for non-Maori. His was done by a Maori guy with a gun not chiseled.
@TJones - If want to act like an ignorant ahole expect to be treated like one. Stating that all tattoos turn people into "freaks" and that they result from low self-esteem and a lack of respect for one's self demonstrates how ignorant you really are.
@TJones - If the USA was made up of tribesmen from the south pacific then your argument would hold water. Since the code of dress among our civilization considers visible tattoos taboo in the workplace, those with them will be considered freakish.
@TJones - But I highly doubt if the next person walking into the Bountiful office for a police job will be able to say that he ia a Maori warrior...This is Utah, not New Zealand...
@TJones - These rules don't prohibit you or the Maori's from getting tattooed, regardless of whether someone else thinks they are freaks or have fetishes.
These rules apply within the confines of a closed business environment.
It's like telling the loan officer that you are not required by law to give anyone other than the IRS and the Social Security Administration your SSN, to which the loan officer will replay, yes, that is true, but then the bank is not required by law to give you a loan either.
Whatever your reason or desire may be for having a tattoo, whether for religious purposes, social status, or even just to piss off those who don't like them, you can be contrary, you have that right, but getting a job is not a right, it is not a guarantee - it is a privilege. In order to be hired for any job, prospective employees must conform to certain prerequisits established by the employer, which often include a certain degree of education or experience, compliance with a particular dress code, or other forms of attitude or behavior.
If you make the decision to place a tattoo on your body, for whatever reason, you have to accept the fact that others may not recognize or appreciate or accept the reasons or interpret the symbol in the same way that you do, and you accept that the choice, the responsibility, and the consequences, are YOURS!
Your Maori example seems to suggest that you believe their must be an exception to the rules for those who have tattooed themselves for religious or social status purposes, and that is simply not the case. These rules apply to everyone, regardless of WHY they got tattoed. NO ONE can have visible tattoos and be hired under these rules, and therefore the rules are INDISCRIMINATE!
These rules apply within the confines of a closed business environment.
It's like telling the loan officer that you are not required by law to give anyone other than the IRS and the Social Security Administration your SSN, to which the loan officer will replay, yes, that is true, but then the bank is not required by law to give you a loan either.
Whatever your reason or desire may be for having a tattoo, whether for religious purposes, social status, or even just to piss off those who don't like them, you can be contrary, you have that right, but getting a job is not a right, it is not a guarantee - it is a privilege. In order to be hired for any job, prospective employees must conform to certain prerequisits established by the employer, which often include a certain degree of education or experience, compliance with a particular dress code, or other forms of attitude or behavior.
If you make the decision to place a tattoo on your body, for whatever reason, you have to accept the fact that others may not recognize or appreciate or accept the reasons or interpret the symbol in the same way that you do, and you accept that the choice, the responsibility, and the consequences, are YOURS!
Your Maori example seems to suggest that you believe their must be an exception to the rules for those who have tattooed themselves for religious or social status purposes, and that is simply not the case. These rules apply to everyone, regardless of WHY they got tattoed. NO ONE can have visible tattoos and be hired under these rules, and therefore the rules are INDISCRIMINATE!
My face tattoo is only half done, maybe i can get a part time job with them.
@Dr.Evil - i may have just crapped my pants laughing so hard. 'boss man can i run home for a minute?'
on a person's LIFE STYLE. wow boutiful wins the SINGLE FINGER AWARD OF THE WEEK FOR BEING SO IGNORANT AND PREJUDICE towards people who are different.
@MyOpinion4U - i DoN'T UnDeRsTaNd WhY YoU OnLy CaPiTaLiZe RaNdOm WoRdS.
Why is KSL showing a naked Bountiful City police officer?? I thought nakedity was against KSL policy.
So does this policy mean that Holocaust survivors can't work for Bountiful City? I mean, millions of those folks were tatooed with numbers by the Nazis. That's not fair. Where's Brian Barnard when you need him???!!!
So does this policy mean that Holocaust survivors can't work for Bountiful City? I mean, millions of those folks were tatooed with numbers by the Nazis. That's not fair. Where's Brian Barnard when you need him???!!!
@Ben D. - funny Ben, making cracks about Holocaust survivors is not funny.
@Concernedwellwisher - First off, the comment about Holocaust survivors was not necessarily meant to be funny. It was more an illustration of how things can happen to some people through no fault of their own and now they have to live with the consequences. Hence, the illustration of Holocaust survivors that have tattoos on their hands and other visible parts of the body. Those people in this situation would be unable to work for Bountiful City. Now, the part about Brian Barnard, that was meant to be a crack.
BTW, the Holocaust is not gloom and doom and in effect, sacred. There have been many survivors of that horrific episode that have made light of it throughout the years. Just FYI.
BTW, the Holocaust is not gloom and doom and in effect, sacred. There have been many survivors of that horrific episode that have made light of it throughout the years. Just FYI.
@Ben D. - A holocaust survivor MIGHT make light of it (I've NEVER seen that actually)....but you are NOT a holocaust survivor and to bring it up in this context was distasteful. Just admit it....
@Cynthia S. - it was very inappropriate that is all I am saying Ben D. usually your comments are very cliche. So forgive me if I view that out of context.
@Concernedwellwisher - I have noticed that he has some preoccupation with that subject. One wonders if he is not purposefully trying to invoke Godwin's law on every topic.
"Welcome to Bountiful, Land of all that are holy" or...."Welcome to Bountiful, where bodies are temples"... I am just not sure which is best?! I agree- get out that check book, and I hope it's a deep, deep pocket book- this is clearly discrimination- plain and simple. Next one all those holy city council members will come up with- No African Americans, Native Americans, Latino's... or even anyone who doesn't wear garments!!!! Where do I apply? I could use some extra cash!
@Ninja K. - I don't live in Bountiful but if I did I wouldn't want to see that crap. It's a matter of courtesy and respect to the citizens. Tax dollars pay those peoples salaries and if the taxpayers don't like it...
@Josh R. - If you did everything the majority of taxpayers in bountiful wanted we would kick out all minorites, then all the non mormons.
@Ninja K. - Hey Ninja K.,
Yes, this policy does cry "discrimination" quite loud and clear. However:
The story states: "The policy is fashioned after one put in place for the Los Angeles Police Department."
If such a policy is alreay in place in a much bigger police department, the legal aspects may have already been addressed. A municipality usually does not enact a policy unless there is another model that is working and within the law. If that is the case, anyone who challenges this policy in court may be wasting their time.
Yes, this policy does cry "discrimination" quite loud and clear. However:
The story states: "The policy is fashioned after one put in place for the Los Angeles Police Department."
If such a policy is alreay in place in a much bigger police department, the legal aspects may have already been addressed. A municipality usually does not enact a policy unless there is another model that is working and within the law. If that is the case, anyone who challenges this policy in court may be wasting their time.
@Ben D. - view this as discrimination. I belive when it comes to the definition of discrimination in the workplace it is race, or gender. Two things you can't control.
@Ben D. - I appreciate your input on my words, I just am sitting here laughing though. The painful reality is this- my arm band, back tat, and shoulder tats have absolutely zero to do with my work ethic, my ability to do my job, and my education level. They are simply a statement I am making to myself- and my child actually- since I have her name on my body also. I am a dedicated employee of a city municipality in SL County, I show up on time, my statistics are consistently high, I am not a gossip hound, I am professional to every one I come across (even with that drug induced freak who pooped all over themselves and my coworker!!) AND, I stand before the City Council to deliver quarterly reports to let them know that my division is a dang hard working bunch of guys. I could give a crap less if my coworker has sleaves of tats on both arms- I want to know if he is a hard worker, ethical, productive and professional.
This "policy" is simply an ability to express ones prejudice against anothers personal choice, period. Frankly, I wouldn't want to work for a city that didn't trust my ability to perform at my work assignments simply because I have ink on my body! My city- empowers me to be a better employee, by accepting me.
This "policy" is simply an ability to express ones prejudice against anothers personal choice, period. Frankly, I wouldn't want to work for a city that didn't trust my ability to perform at my work assignments simply because I have ink on my body! My city- empowers me to be a better employee, by accepting me.
@Ninja K. - Well, let's start with this:
You write: "I am a dedicated employee of a city municipality in SL County, I show up on time, my statistics are consistently high, I am not a gossip hound, I am professional to every one I come across."
Says who??? Give me the name of your supervisor and contact information so we can verify that you are as good you seem to think you are. The patting of yourself is quite irrelevant.
You write: "This "policy" is simply an ability to express ones prejudice against anothers personal choice, period." No, this policy is one municipality's way of presenting professionalism. For those of you that have marked up your body and expect that everyone is going to understand you is ludicrous. Sometimes, you can't have it both ways.
You write: "Frankly, I wouldn't want to work for a city that didn't trust my ability to perform at my work assignments simply because I have ink on my body!"
OK, fine. Don't work for the city of Bountiful. (You couldn't anyway because of your tatoos) Isn't America great??? You are free to choose who you want to work for!!!
You write: "My city- empowers me to be a better employee, by accepting me."
So you are so great and wonderful because of your tattoos? Alrighty then.
OK, now back to the your original post and my response. What this all comes down to is a municipality's freedom to enact policies as they see fit. OK, here's where you need help, so I'll type slowly. THE CITY OF LOS ANGELES HAS ENACTED A SIMILAR POLICY. IF IT WORKS FOR THEM AND IT'S WITHIN THE LAW, AND BOUNTIFUL CITY PRESENTS THE POLICY, THEN A LAWSUIT MAY BE A WASTE OF TIME BECAUSE THE LEGALITIES HAVE ALREADY BE ADDRESSED.
If you need more help figuring these basics out, please feel free to ask. JUDAS, I think all that ink in your system is having a negative effect on your reasoning skills. But hey, Salt Lake City has empowered you because of your tattoos!!!
You write: "I am a dedicated employee of a city municipality in SL County, I show up on time, my statistics are consistently high, I am not a gossip hound, I am professional to every one I come across."
Says who??? Give me the name of your supervisor and contact information so we can verify that you are as good you seem to think you are. The patting of yourself is quite irrelevant.
You write: "This "policy" is simply an ability to express ones prejudice against anothers personal choice, period." No, this policy is one municipality's way of presenting professionalism. For those of you that have marked up your body and expect that everyone is going to understand you is ludicrous. Sometimes, you can't have it both ways.
You write: "Frankly, I wouldn't want to work for a city that didn't trust my ability to perform at my work assignments simply because I have ink on my body!"
OK, fine. Don't work for the city of Bountiful. (You couldn't anyway because of your tatoos) Isn't America great??? You are free to choose who you want to work for!!!
You write: "My city- empowers me to be a better employee, by accepting me."
So you are so great and wonderful because of your tattoos? Alrighty then.
OK, now back to the your original post and my response. What this all comes down to is a municipality's freedom to enact policies as they see fit. OK, here's where you need help, so I'll type slowly. THE CITY OF LOS ANGELES HAS ENACTED A SIMILAR POLICY. IF IT WORKS FOR THEM AND IT'S WITHIN THE LAW, AND BOUNTIFUL CITY PRESENTS THE POLICY, THEN A LAWSUIT MAY BE A WASTE OF TIME BECAUSE THE LEGALITIES HAVE ALREADY BE ADDRESSED.
If you need more help figuring these basics out, please feel free to ask. JUDAS, I think all that ink in your system is having a negative effect on your reasoning skills. But hey, Salt Lake City has empowered you because of your tattoos!!!
@Ninja K. - I will type this slowly for you, so you don't miss the boat this time.
Again, my tattoo's have ZERO bearing on what kind of employee I am. They do not dictate how I behave, how I react, even how I eat a meal.
I think the only thing my ink has the ability to do, is allow someone like you to judge me before I even say a word!
BIG boat, there my friend- sailed right by your thought process.
Again, my tattoo's have ZERO bearing on what kind of employee I am. They do not dictate how I behave, how I react, even how I eat a meal.
I think the only thing my ink has the ability to do, is allow someone like you to judge me before I even say a word!
BIG boat, there my friend- sailed right by your thought process.
@Ninja K. - If you look at the federal EEO laws it doesnt fit in the category of race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability, or age! It might fit under a broad category of stereotyping but this would be very difficult to prove seeing how a tattoo, in sight, could be offensive to the general public. There places all over the US that wont hire because of visible tattoos, this just isnt the "City of Bountiful".
Like I said before, this is about professionalism and not discrimination.
Like I said before, this is about professionalism and not discrimination.
Someone decides it's time to try to put some class back into the environment, and the freaks come out yelling lawsuit!
I only wish the restaurant business would do the same, so I can eat without throwing up a little in my mouth when the wait staff comes around.
I only wish the restaurant business would do the same, so I can eat without throwing up a little in my mouth when the wait staff comes around.
@Sandy C. - at Macaroni grill and this girl had some pretty long dreads. I was a little put off by it but I had just got my drink and was sitting and enjoying myself waiting for my appetizers. Well she was making a drink and one of her "locks" dipped in the drink she was making. Well I nearly threw up right then. Got up and walked to the exit with my wife. Told them what I saw and would like to just pay for what I had NOT enjoyed and leave. It could happen with normal hair as well but it was really disgusting considering the amount of bacteria in locks.
@Concernedwellwisher - what this has to do with the topic being discussed. I agree it's gross.
@Jade W. - well if you read Sandy C comment it makes sense. The overall topic is profesionalism in the workplace. I don't think I would want someone waiting on tables with gross dreadlocks or tattoos. It just to me looks unsanitary. Especially all of the piercings.
Who cares if it is offtopic as well. If I get negated off by enough people that is when it matters.
Who cares if it is offtopic as well. If I get negated off by enough people that is when it matters.
@Sandy C. - I am a college graduate, I dont smoke, drink, I am not over weight, and I have a great job, I am married with two little girls, I attend church and I HAVE 3 TATTOOS. Am I a freak? Get a life! You people who get offended by a simple tattoo need to grow up and get a life.
I realize companies can have a dress code...but couldn't this be seen as discriminatory? What if the best candidate for the job is a tattoo on their hand? They will hire the other person even though less qualified because there's no tattoo?
Are they assuming all tattoo's in these certain locations have gang symbolism? What if it's just a simple little tattoo with no gang ties?
Are they assuming all tattoo's in these certain locations have gang symbolism? What if it's just a simple little tattoo with no gang ties?
@TJones - They can hire the non-tattoo if they wanted to. You are not born with tattoos like the other genetic divisions that you cannot dictate. That person chose to have the tatoo and should accept the consequences of that choice.
@TJones - Have you ever been in the position to hire people TJones? The same rules we followed on the playground in 2nd grade still apply to hiring decisions; we associate with people we like.
Human Resource managers see people with excessive body mods all the time and simply put them in the "not qualified" pile. I have drinks frequently with a group of friends who tell me about the people they hired and the ones they didn't.
It's such a simple thing to understand.....fill all the required blocks (education, volunteerism, impeccable references, hard work, dressed to fit the part, etc.) and opportunity abounds for hiring choices. However, go to any interview not wearing the proper attire with body mods and you're simply not going to get a call back.
It isn't illegal to have a code stating you won't hire new people with visible tattoos below the forearm for example. The military won't let people join who can't present a professional image due to body mods and Bountiful is no different.
If you want to modify your body, so be it. As long as the changes aren't visible wearing normal business attire things are fine.
Why screw up your future possibilities by wanting to stand out today? I personally see a big business in tattoo removal in the near future.
Human Resource managers see people with excessive body mods all the time and simply put them in the "not qualified" pile. I have drinks frequently with a group of friends who tell me about the people they hired and the ones they didn't.
It's such a simple thing to understand.....fill all the required blocks (education, volunteerism, impeccable references, hard work, dressed to fit the part, etc.) and opportunity abounds for hiring choices. However, go to any interview not wearing the proper attire with body mods and you're simply not going to get a call back.
It isn't illegal to have a code stating you won't hire new people with visible tattoos below the forearm for example. The military won't let people join who can't present a professional image due to body mods and Bountiful is no different.
If you want to modify your body, so be it. As long as the changes aren't visible wearing normal business attire things are fine.
Why screw up your future possibilities by wanting to stand out today? I personally see a big business in tattoo removal in the near future.
@WEM - I have hired 2 new people this year. The first was an older gentleman who arrived in a neatly pressed suit and was very 'clean cut'. The second is a young man in his late 20's with enlarged ear-lobes...probably a nickel could fit through. And I tell you this - the young man with the ear holes the size of a nickel is TEN TIMES the employee the clean-cut-suit-wearing older gentleman is!
To me - performance is what matters, not how good you look while doing it.
It's all relative to the industry/nature of the business I suppose. Mostly - it depends on what kind of customer base one has.
To me - performance is what matters, not how good you look while doing it.
It's all relative to the industry/nature of the business I suppose. Mostly - it depends on what kind of customer base one has.
@TJones - You're right TJones, it does all depend on the nature of the business. If you're looking for construction workers, who cares right! However, that 20 something young man you hired may one day look for a job behind a desk and the first thing he'll do is have his ears fixed.
@WEM - He does sit behind a desk right now. He is in the Finance & Accounting sector of a large business in downtown Salt Lake. Perhaps this is not the norm - but just remember the days when our parents were telling us to get a haircut so we could get a good job. Now, something like the length of one's hair, seems like such a silly factor in determining someone's abilities.
they would ban servers at restraunts having dread locks. Man talk about unsanitary makes me want to heave.
I don't think tattoos on the hands are all that bad, but on the neck and face come on. If you want a professional job wait another 400 years until people change their view of what is professinoal.
I don't think tattoos on the hands are all that bad, but on the neck and face come on. If you want a professional job wait another 400 years until people change their view of what is professinoal.
That is the stupidest thing I have heard!!!
People get stupider and stupider everyday!!!!
I cant believe people really go this far!
GO GET A LIFE!!
quit worrying about what people do with them selfs...some people just cant look past anything!
People get stupider and stupider everyday!!!!
I cant believe people really go this far!
GO GET A LIFE!!
quit worrying about what people do with them selfs...some people just cant look past anything!
@thisonetime... - you funny because you are obviously really serious about this. Why don't you take on your own advice and quit worrying about what Bountiful city does for themselves.
Putting graffitti on your temple is trashy, why should we all look like inmates to be "cool"?
@Stobbe - I will tell my brother who is in the Marine core that the tattoo on his arm is trashy for you Stobbe, All he has ever done is make our country safe.
@Dr.Evil - does having a tattoo and making our country safe have to do with eachother? Tell your brother I think his tattoo is stupid and he is great for his service.
@Concernedwellwisher - Having Tattoos is a long tradition representing dedication and respect for their fallen freinds. Lots of Native Americans will have tattoo's, scarring, or changing parts of their body. Also some African tribes will put hoops in their ears, Scar type Tattoos, And even Somoans alter their bodys through different means. A lot of them due this to show their respect for their edlers, or for religious reasons. Your comment really shows your ignorance to the whole idea. I quess unless you wear "fancy pants" and have a missionary style haircut your not welcome here! One thing i really think is trashy is people who wear garments but then try to be stylish and wear clothes that don't fully cover their undies, thats trashy!!
@Dr.Evil - Why is it the burden of the majority, to accept the fetishes of the minority? Why is it my job, to bend to whatever whim a few insecure people, with low self-esteem, decide to do?
If you decide to scar your face, so you look like a cat; am I now supposed to pretend that you are normal? Sorry, this is a choice you made.
If you want to look like a circus freak; then the best job for you is probably with the circus. No one is saying that you can't do stupid things; but there are consequences for your actions. Sometimes the consequences are good, sometimes they are bad.
Having a tatoo will never open a door for you; but they certainly will shut the doors of opportunity.
If you decide to scar your face, so you look like a cat; am I now supposed to pretend that you are normal? Sorry, this is a choice you made.
If you want to look like a circus freak; then the best job for you is probably with the circus. No one is saying that you can't do stupid things; but there are consequences for your actions. Sometimes the consequences are good, sometimes they are bad.
Having a tatoo will never open a door for you; but they certainly will shut the doors of opportunity.
@Dr.Evil - I don't understand the culture blah. Come on man you don't even know me. Also in some parts of Islam it is cool to sew a womans private area together and mutilate it. I do know what Samoans do to their body as well. Considering I served with my fancy pants and lame haircut in New Zealand. In Tongan and Samoan wards.
Just because cultures do something for a religious reason doesn't make it necessarily right or acceptable. I don't agree with a lot of the stupid cultural norms in this society. I believe they are a waste of time and energy. Namely stupid. You bringing up your brothers marine corp service has nothing to do with the tattoo he got. In fact ask him if he got one on his neck would he be in the Marine corp still?
That is the point what level of professionalism do you want in certain professions IN THIS SOCIETY. If you walked up to a bank teller and they had tattoos on their necks and big gauged nostrils would you give him your money? Tattoos on the neck and hands in this culture is associated with being a thug. Not traditional cultural tatoos given to the eldest son etc. In fact a Samoan could get a job in Bountiful city because they are on the groin and thigh area.
Just because cultures do something for a religious reason doesn't make it necessarily right or acceptable. I don't agree with a lot of the stupid cultural norms in this society. I believe they are a waste of time and energy. Namely stupid. You bringing up your brothers marine corp service has nothing to do with the tattoo he got. In fact ask him if he got one on his neck would he be in the Marine corp still?
That is the point what level of professionalism do you want in certain professions IN THIS SOCIETY. If you walked up to a bank teller and they had tattoos on their necks and big gauged nostrils would you give him your money? Tattoos on the neck and hands in this culture is associated with being a thug. Not traditional cultural tatoos given to the eldest son etc. In fact a Samoan could get a job in Bountiful city because they are on the groin and thigh area.
@Dr.Evil - "the tattoo on his arm is trashy", your own words, doesnt mean we dont appreciate the work he is doing.
@Trevor F. - I don't think it's trashy at all. I can tell from Stobbe that he has some fat on his "temple" Myself and my brother take very good care of our "temples" I'd rather see a well fit person with a tattoo then a fat, garment wearing "temple".
@Dr.Evil - He's never had a bowl of rice krispies? Never watched a ball game? Never contemplated the histories of the astros?
By the way... I think most people will duly note the difference between a marine-vet with his military insignia, and some fool whose inferiority complex is as obvious as the ridiculous "art" he's put all over his face, neck, and arms for all to see.
By the way... I think most people will duly note the difference between a marine-vet with his military insignia, and some fool whose inferiority complex is as obvious as the ridiculous "art" he's put all over his face, neck, and arms for all to see.
@Dr.Evil - With all due respect to your brother, what he has done for this country has nothing to do with his personal choice to tattoo himself.
Or to put it another way, I don't care what kind of tattoo your brother has, or for what reasons he decided to get it. I admire him for his efforts to help protect my safety by serving this country in the Marine Corps, but don't forget that in doing so, he was protecting my right to maintain my own opinion about his tattoo!
Or to put it another way, I don't care what kind of tattoo your brother has, or for what reasons he decided to get it. I admire him for his efforts to help protect my safety by serving this country in the Marine Corps, but don't forget that in doing so, he was protecting my right to maintain my own opinion about his tattoo!
@Stobbe - While I do agree with the policy, only because it has to do with being a professional. I do not agree that all tats are trashy. There are some beautiful tats out there. Tattoo artists are just that artists. I have a tat but it is in a location that does not offend others and no one can see it unless I want them too (middle of my upper back). We do not have to look like inmates to be cool. Inmate tats are not cool. Our bodies are our temples. We can decorate them if we want to but our decorations should not offend others. There is a thin line there. I always tell people if they are considering a tat then take all considerations before you get one and be discreet because the location can cost you a good job. As for people in the food industry, I agree be discreet cover them or put them where they do not offend others.
@Brenda P. - We saw one of the US Olympic Gymnasts who had a tattoo on her ankle, and always covers it with a bandaid when she competes. It's about looking professional and being appropriate for the job you're doing.
@Brenda P. - I agree with the policy as well. I also have a tattoo and many friends with multiple tattoos. A professional job requires a professional appearance. Neck, face, and hand tattoos aren't professional. Mine can be covered and always is at work.
I also agree that outside of work, tattoos can be very tasteful and express one's individuality. The problem is we live in a local culture where the sheeple don't accept them and judge accordingly.
I also agree that outside of work, tattoos can be very tasteful and express one's individuality. The problem is we live in a local culture where the sheeple don't accept them and judge accordingly.
@Stobbe - Fat people look trashy, putting lard in your temple and stretching all out of shape is trashy, why should we all look like blimps to be cool?
@Stobbe - As far as I'm concerned, your 'temple' is either a building of extreme worship or another name for your forehead.
I don't understand how painting either one is trashy.
I don't understand how painting either one is trashy.
@Stobbe - You are ignorant. Must be a morman? I have 3 tattoos one religious and two for fun. Nope I dont think they look cool I just think they are fun! You dont see people get offended about the CTR rings and crosses people wear do you? I cant stand people like you!
What if I wear my CTL ring... would I still get hired?
@Zach L. - Its amazing how you are voted HUH? You are put to the top of most lists when you wear your CTR ring in this state. I got your joke...keep it up!!!
@Zach L. - CTL??? If it stands for Choose the Loser, I don't think you have a chance of getting hired. That would be like wearing a Bud Lite t-shirt while applying for a position at MADD or a receptionist job at AA.
@Deebo - I got a CTR ring just to wear at job interviews... Ebay is wonderful, I cant wait to get my jesus jammies too, then I am guarenteed the job...
@Zach L. - You might have gotten to these simple-minded idiots, if you'd said:
How likely would I be to get a job working with the LA Lakers, if I walked into my interview wearing a Utah Jazz team jersey? How likely am I to get a job working for Hillary's election campaign, if I walked into my interview wearing a GO BUSH! button on my jacket?
If you walked into a tattoo parlor sporting full body suit, I'd say you're a lot more likey to get a job there, than you would if you went looking for a job in a laser surgical center that specialized in REMOVING tattoos!
If you drop out of high school, you're probably not going to get a job as a NASA Engineer. If you decide to put tattoos all over your face, you're probably not going to get a job on the cosmetics counter at Saks Fifth Avenue, OR at the local DMV.
If people want to sew their eyelids shut, that's fine with me, as long as the aren't hired by the local Taxi company to drive me to the airport.
How likely would I be to get a job working with the LA Lakers, if I walked into my interview wearing a Utah Jazz team jersey? How likely am I to get a job working for Hillary's election campaign, if I walked into my interview wearing a GO BUSH! button on my jacket?
If you walked into a tattoo parlor sporting full body suit, I'd say you're a lot more likey to get a job there, than you would if you went looking for a job in a laser surgical center that specialized in REMOVING tattoos!
If you drop out of high school, you're probably not going to get a job as a NASA Engineer. If you decide to put tattoos all over your face, you're probably not going to get a job on the cosmetics counter at Saks Fifth Avenue, OR at the local DMV.
If people want to sew their eyelids shut, that's fine with me, as long as the aren't hired by the local Taxi company to drive me to the airport.
to each individual. Some who appreciate art do it for the sake of art. Some use it as a way to express a feeling or something they experienced in life. While some think tattoos look trashy, some think of it as a form of self-expression.
Some people get tattoos to be "cool", but there are also people who do it for very significant reasons.
It just seems a little ridiculous that a person can't get a job because they have ink marks on their body. Now, if they had a tattoo that was something obscene, then I could see employers in Bountiful having a problem hiring that person.
And besides, if a person is going to get a tattoo in Utah, they gotta expect some problems...unless it's downtown SLC. I mean, everyone knows that tattoos=Devil.
Some people get tattoos to be "cool", but there are also people who do it for very significant reasons.
It just seems a little ridiculous that a person can't get a job because they have ink marks on their body. Now, if they had a tattoo that was something obscene, then I could see employers in Bountiful having a problem hiring that person.
And besides, if a person is going to get a tattoo in Utah, they gotta expect some problems...unless it's downtown SLC. I mean, everyone knows that tattoos=Devil.
@speak ya clout - Oh, come on, why are you making this a "Salt Lake" attitudes issue? The article clearly said it is patterned after a Los Angeles policy...definitely NOT a place with the attitudes you keep accusing Utahns of having! Also, posters here have told about similar policies in the South, and in Texas, etc. THIS IS NOT WHAT YOU SAY IT IS!
I used to be a professional development teacher at a business college. I also worked as the Placement Director there, getting jobs for students as they finished their degrees. I got questions all the time from students about why they couldn't wear certain extreme hairstyles or colors, or why they couldn't have certain visible things such as piercings or tattoos, etc. The answer? You are welcome to have those things. Just realize you will be closing some doors for yourselves. Yes, there will be some employers who will hire you anyway, but there will be many who won't. If you want the most options, don't look extreme. There are a lot of employers who personally have no problem with such things, but who know they have customers who won't be comfortable with them. Business owners spend a lot of money creating a certain image for their business...they don't want to risk harming their businesses by hiring someone who would cause any customers to be uncomfortable or who would project an image different from what the owner has tried to develop.
So...you want tattoos? Go ahead, you have that choice. Just don't holler and complain when some doors are closed to you because of it. That's life, that's real, and that's fair.
I used to be a professional development teacher at a business college. I also worked as the Placement Director there, getting jobs for students as they finished their degrees. I got questions all the time from students about why they couldn't wear certain extreme hairstyles or colors, or why they couldn't have certain visible things such as piercings or tattoos, etc. The answer? You are welcome to have those things. Just realize you will be closing some doors for yourselves. Yes, there will be some employers who will hire you anyway, but there will be many who won't. If you want the most options, don't look extreme. There are a lot of employers who personally have no problem with such things, but who know they have customers who won't be comfortable with them. Business owners spend a lot of money creating a certain image for their business...they don't want to risk harming their businesses by hiring someone who would cause any customers to be uncomfortable or who would project an image different from what the owner has tried to develop.
So...you want tattoos? Go ahead, you have that choice. Just don't holler and complain when some doors are closed to you because of it. That's life, that's real, and that's fair.
I never understood the reason to get a tattoo.
I totally agree how unprofessional someone looks with tattoos on visible areas.
Do you really need to write or draw stuff on your buddy to feel better?
My body is NOT a billboard...I dont need to write stuff on me because I know who I am and what I am worth...I can project that to other without the need of writing it on my skin....
I totally agree how unprofessional someone looks with tattoos on visible areas.
Do you really need to write or draw stuff on your buddy to feel better?
My body is NOT a billboard...I dont need to write stuff on me because I know who I am and what I am worth...I can project that to other without the need of writing it on my skin....
@Gabriel95 - I never understood the need that people have to affiliate themselves with a specific church in order to maintain a faith in God, but that doesn't mean I discriminate against those who do, UNLESS, in a business environment, they start preaching to my customers, who may be offended or who may feel uncomfortable being preached to.
If you're a member of the LDS Church or the Baptist Church, or if you ride a Honda and I ride a Harley, or you drive a Hummer and I drive a Civic, I'm not going to hold it against you, and if you want tattoos on your body, that's your business. I may even find them attractive!
But when it comes to MY business, if walk in looking for a job with 'Jesus Saves' tattooed across your knuckles, or an image of the Buddha tattooed on your forehead, or a gang sign tattoed on your neck, or a gold chain dangling between the bone in your nose and your left ear, I'm not going to hire you to work with my customers! In short, you're free to express yourself on your time, but not on mine time, and certainly not on my customer's time!
You seem to be of the opinion that if you wouldn't do it, or you see no need to have a tattoo, then that should be reason enough for opposition. But it is not your personal opinion or my personal opinion that is at issue here. In the business environment, the employer has a responsibility to consider the opinions and needs of OTHER PEOPLE -- their customers -- above and beyond what they themselves may like or dislike or find acceptable.
And whether or not it is unprofessional to sport tattoos, really depends on what kind of business environment you're working in. In a tattoo parlor, I would guess that having tattoos would almost have to be a prerequisite, but not when working with the general public.
If you're a member of the LDS Church or the Baptist Church, or if you ride a Honda and I ride a Harley, or you drive a Hummer and I drive a Civic, I'm not going to hold it against you, and if you want tattoos on your body, that's your business. I may even find them attractive!
But when it comes to MY business, if walk in looking for a job with 'Jesus Saves' tattooed across your knuckles, or an image of the Buddha tattooed on your forehead, or a gang sign tattoed on your neck, or a gold chain dangling between the bone in your nose and your left ear, I'm not going to hire you to work with my customers! In short, you're free to express yourself on your time, but not on mine time, and certainly not on my customer's time!
You seem to be of the opinion that if you wouldn't do it, or you see no need to have a tattoo, then that should be reason enough for opposition. But it is not your personal opinion or my personal opinion that is at issue here. In the business environment, the employer has a responsibility to consider the opinions and needs of OTHER PEOPLE -- their customers -- above and beyond what they themselves may like or dislike or find acceptable.
And whether or not it is unprofessional to sport tattoos, really depends on what kind of business environment you're working in. In a tattoo parlor, I would guess that having tattoos would almost have to be a prerequisite, but not when working with the general public.
i am going to go get a tat, for the shear purpose to piss all of you off. ha ha i win!
@bertman070 - When you get the tattoo make sure you don't get the old hot naked girl one, get the new updated fat chick wearing garmnets one, then you be able to find work anywhere in Utah!!
@Dr.Evil - That was the most brilliant comment I have ever read.....
Where do you find your material?
Where do you find your material?
@Dr.Evil - You have quite the garment fetish don't ya, Dr. Evil??? Grow up a bit and try posting something remotely intelligent.
So if you were an employer, and there were two equally qualified applicants, one with tats and one with garments, would you pick the tat-guy? If so, then you'd be a hypocrite for discriminating against garment-guy. It goes both ways, dude!
So if you were an employer, and there were two equally qualified applicants, one with tats and one with garments, would you pick the tat-guy? If so, then you'd be a hypocrite for discriminating against garment-guy. It goes both ways, dude!
@Dugger - I'm guessing you don't know what a fetish is, they way you use it is stupid. I use the word "garment" because i get tired of the self righteous people who think just because they go to church and beleive their religion is the only true one, that everyone else is wrong. And with that they pass judgement. I'm sure it is hard for mormons who believe they are better than others to not pass judgement, but that doesn't make it right.
@bertman070 - Now, you're going to cut off your nose to spite your face!
Ha Ha -- guess what, I could care less if you cover your whole body in tattoos -- and I'm sure that everyone else on this board feels the same way, but you've forgotten what this whole debate was all about.
It isn't about pissing off those who don't like tattoos, it's about whether or not by pissing me off, you're going to get a job working for me!
The issue is whether or not an employer has rights that superceded your personal affinity for body art and your need to express your symbolism to others in a closed environment.
Go ahead and get all the tattoos you want - nobody is stopping you. Just don't expect that every employer is going to hire you if you've got a big snake tattooed on your hand.
Being tattooed is your God given right, being HIRED is NOT!
Ha Ha -- guess what, I could care less if you cover your whole body in tattoos -- and I'm sure that everyone else on this board feels the same way, but you've forgotten what this whole debate was all about.
It isn't about pissing off those who don't like tattoos, it's about whether or not by pissing me off, you're going to get a job working for me!
The issue is whether or not an employer has rights that superceded your personal affinity for body art and your need to express your symbolism to others in a closed environment.
Go ahead and get all the tattoos you want - nobody is stopping you. Just don't expect that every employer is going to hire you if you've got a big snake tattooed on your hand.
Being tattooed is your God given right, being HIRED is NOT!
I'm sure I will be called judgemental, but it can be distracting when the person you are talking to is pierced or tatooed, especially their face. The issue here is a professional image. How often do you see a successful business man, politician, etc. covered in tats? The reason is because it is a distraction and hindrance when you are trying to relate to others.
I have several friends with tatoos and most of them regret getting them years later. Even though there are many great people with tasteful and even beautiful tatoos and some are affiliated with their culture or religion, they often conjure up negative images. Look at the prisons. I wonder what percent of criminals in prison have tatoos?
I have several friends with tatoos and most of them regret getting them years later. Even though there are many great people with tasteful and even beautiful tatoos and some are affiliated with their culture or religion, they often conjure up negative images. Look at the prisons. I wonder what percent of criminals in prison have tatoos?
@Chaka - ..and I understand why you find them distracting. I was talking to this cashier who had jailhouse kkk tats, and I couldn't pay attention to what he was doing or saying because they were just so repugnant that I couldn't get past the distraction.
I don't get why people need to cover themselves head to toe or do their faces. I can't get past the distraction of gauged ear piercings with gigantic earlobes either.
But a few tasteful and artistically done tats that are obviously meaningful for the wearer don't bother me.
I don't get why people need to cover themselves head to toe or do their faces. I can't get past the distraction of gauged ear piercings with gigantic earlobes either.
But a few tasteful and artistically done tats that are obviously meaningful for the wearer don't bother me.
@Jennifer z. - " But a few tasteful and artistically done tats that are obviously meaningful for the wearer don't bother me. "
Are you suggesting that the "jailhouse kkk" tats were not meaningful to the cashier? Or are we to assume then, that the only tasteful and artistically done (and meaningful) tats, are those that you see as tasteful, artistic and meaninful?
The hypocrisy in your statements is truly sad. This isn't about what you or I or that tattooed cashier think is tasteful. It is about what an EMPLOYER thinks is or isn't appropriate in an environment where his/her customers are going to be exposed to those symbols whether they like it or not!
You may think your own tattoo is the most tasteful and meaningful thing you've ever seen, and you may want to put it somewhere on your body where everyone will have the opportunity to experience the awe and wonder that you feel, but not everyone is going to share your opinion, and just as you were distracted by the 'jailhouse kkk' tats on the cashier you described, your beautiful piece of body art may be just as distracting to someone else - - and therefore it simply isn't appropriate for them to be displayed in a work environment, regardless of how pretty YOU think it is!
Are you suggesting that the "jailhouse kkk" tats were not meaningful to the cashier? Or are we to assume then, that the only tasteful and artistically done (and meaningful) tats, are those that you see as tasteful, artistic and meaninful?
The hypocrisy in your statements is truly sad. This isn't about what you or I or that tattooed cashier think is tasteful. It is about what an EMPLOYER thinks is or isn't appropriate in an environment where his/her customers are going to be exposed to those symbols whether they like it or not!
You may think your own tattoo is the most tasteful and meaningful thing you've ever seen, and you may want to put it somewhere on your body where everyone will have the opportunity to experience the awe and wonder that you feel, but not everyone is going to share your opinion, and just as you were distracted by the 'jailhouse kkk' tats on the cashier you described, your beautiful piece of body art may be just as distracting to someone else - - and therefore it simply isn't appropriate for them to be displayed in a work environment, regardless of how pretty YOU think it is!
@Wake-up-and-smell-the-coffee - That the KKK tats may have meant something to the wearer at one point in his life. Nevertheless, it is hate speech. And the same goes for the porno tat that Jacosta referred to in a post above. It's perfectly acceptable to regulate hate-related speech and images as well as pornographic images in our society. It's not constitutionally protected.
I don't think it's too much to ask that people cover up swastika, burning cross, and naked women tats or have them tattooed over into something that's less controversial. I would, however, have a problem with someone asking me to cover up my tat in a public place because it's a vine with flowers. Flowers are pretty non-controversial - I have never seen anyone sue over a display of pictures of flowers. Nudity and hate speech don't enjoy the same non-controversial status.
And for the record, I have had to cover my tat in the course of my employment.
I don't think it's too much to ask that people cover up swastika, burning cross, and naked women tats or have them tattooed over into something that's less controversial. I would, however, have a problem with someone asking me to cover up my tat in a public place because it's a vine with flowers. Flowers are pretty non-controversial - I have never seen anyone sue over a display of pictures of flowers. Nudity and hate speech don't enjoy the same non-controversial status.
And for the record, I have had to cover my tat in the course of my employment.
I do have a tat - it's a small vine around my ankle.
I have worked as a classical musician, where I've needed to wear an ankle-length that didn't quite cover the tat. I was also told in no uncertain terms that the tat needed to be obscured, and I was able to do this using Pancake make-up (the thick stuff that stage actors use). I plan on getting another one, but that will be on the back of my neck and not visible unless I pull my hair up.
I don't see a huge problem with tats being against a dress code. If someone has a facial tat and needs to hide it, there are options other than removal (which, incidentally, costs about 20 X what the tat costs, and doesn't always totally get rid of it). Google Pancake makeup.
I have worked as a classical musician, where I've needed to wear an ankle-length that didn't quite cover the tat. I was also told in no uncertain terms that the tat needed to be obscured, and I was able to do this using Pancake make-up (the thick stuff that stage actors use). I plan on getting another one, but that will be on the back of my neck and not visible unless I pull my hair up.
I don't see a huge problem with tats being against a dress code. If someone has a facial tat and needs to hide it, there are options other than removal (which, incidentally, costs about 20 X what the tat costs, and doesn't always totally get rid of it). Google Pancake makeup.
I have several tattoos. They have never prevented me from getting a job. WHY? because they are all easily hidden with just a T-shirt. When I get my tattoos I purposely put them in a place that I know will not show at work.
If you get tattoos you know the risks with them, and one of those risks is being discriminated against. Just as I can't wear jeans or t-shirts in my office, I can not show my tattoos. I must wear a collared shirt and dress pants, this is the rules that I follow.
Anyone who cries discrimination is a fool. You know the risks and the stigma against tattoos. You were not born with them and you choose to get them so accept the consequences.
If you get tattoos you know the risks with them, and one of those risks is being discriminated against. Just as I can't wear jeans or t-shirts in my office, I can not show my tattoos. I must wear a collared shirt and dress pants, this is the rules that I follow.
Anyone who cries discrimination is a fool. You know the risks and the stigma against tattoos. You were not born with them and you choose to get them so accept the consequences.
The Guy in that picture is HOT! If he wasn't covered in body art, I don't think he would look quite as good.
Maby Bountiful shouldn't higher people that are too fat. Tattoos are a choice for a lot of people...so is being fat...choose to walk away from that box oftwinkies! Choose to get off the couch and get some exercise. Which is more damaging to your "temple", ink or excessive body fat, clogged artieries, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, etc?
@Terry N. - They are both damaging. Perhaps the ink is not going to poison the body the way that a twinkie's hydrogenated fat will, but it shares the damage to our spiritual welfare. Not to mention that weight gain can be reversed with persistance and diet, but a tattoo is hard to reverse without evidence that it was there.
i have a tattoo. and when i got my tattoo i knew exactly what that would do to my image! i knew some people wouldnt except it and that others would. thats life folks! i have it on my wrist and i cant cover it up unless i wear a long sleeved shirt. but i choose that! i knew that when i interviewed for a job the company i was interviewing with might not hire me because of it. i think other people with tattoos need to realize the same thing. if you want a job that requires you to look a certain way then dont get a tattoo! its just that simple! i am a loan officer and my company is ok with small tattoos. but i can understand not wanting someone with huge piercings and tattoos.
I agree that tatoos are piercing have no place in a public institution specially the police force and the military. Who would respect a 5 star general naked? The appearance is absolutely important in these institutions. I support the banning of tatoos and piercing 100%. I think they are legitimately trying to prevent people like the one on this link from getting a job within their organizations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Modern_primitive.jpg
@Compusados - Who respects fat men and women who claim their body is a temple? If a person really respects themselves then they would be taking care of thier bodies, not stuffing it with Ho Ho's, soda and Jello.
@Dr.Evil - In fact our religion teaches that we should take care of our bodies, and this includes not over indulging in junk food that would lead to unhealthy weight.
It also teaches that WE ARE NOT PERFECT. And that the experience of this life is to work towards perfection, which includes making mistakes along the way. This is how we learn. I know plenty of members who take excellent care of their bodies, and I silently applaud them on this feat of victory. I also know members who struggle with their weight, but excel in other areas of spirituality beyond that of the "fit" member. We each have our vices, and we are working on these one at a time. We are human, we are facile, we are weak. But we can also be strong. That is what we are working towards.
As for the Jello, I wish everyone would get off this horse. I personally don't care for jello much, especially the green variety
It also teaches that WE ARE NOT PERFECT. And that the experience of this life is to work towards perfection, which includes making mistakes along the way. This is how we learn. I know plenty of members who take excellent care of their bodies, and I silently applaud them on this feat of victory. I also know members who struggle with their weight, but excel in other areas of spirituality beyond that of the "fit" member. We each have our vices, and we are working on these one at a time. We are human, we are facile, we are weak. But we can also be strong. That is what we are working towards.
As for the Jello, I wish everyone would get off this horse. I personally don't care for jello much, especially the green variety
@Compusados - I happen to be in the military and moving towards my caree on the police force. I also have SEVERAL tatoos. Does the make me a bad officer and soldier? Or are you still going to stand behind me and want me to take a bullet for you if the time comes? What difference does a little individuality matter when it really comes down to it. As long as we are willing to serve and protect
@Compusados - If you don't like the bosses policy vote him out of office. People have the choice to get them removed if they want the government job.
It seems to me that the only people who care about this is the ones who want a gov. job.
So let the stupid law suits begin.
It seems to me that the only people who care about this is the ones who want a gov. job.
So let the stupid law suits begin.
Why can't people in Utah just come out and say they don't want people who are different working for them. I wonder how many of the members of Bountiful city are overweight. Just because you eat Green Yello doesn't mean you need to look like it!!
@Dr.Evil - "clap" "clap" "clap"...
@Trevor F. - For the morons like Dr. Evil who actually over-tattoo themselves and thus allow us an open window into their anxious, undisicplined souls. I applaud the fools who so wear their "art" and make it easier for me to deduce that they aren't worthy of the jobs we're offering at my company.
Tattoo away... pierce away... rage against the machine, put another bumper sticker on that heap of yours, cruise Sugarhouse, and never really get anywhere.
Tattoo away... pierce away... rage against the machine, put another bumper sticker on that heap of yours, cruise Sugarhouse, and never really get anywhere.
@Barahir - If you identify yourself as an undesireable, a failure, a criminal and/or thug - that's great for every 'normal' person you compete against in the job market.
I don't have tats. This means you are not going to be in the same league as me. I'm going to get the job/promotion, not because I'm better, smarter, or more educated. I'll get the job, because I'm more mature.
The logic escapes me.
Be a non-conformist, reject the values of our society and tell society to go forth and muliply. Then curse society for not accepting you.
On behalf of every person who has ever applied for the jobs you applied for, we thank you!! Just think, if/when you get hired; it won't be because of your appearance, talents and skills. It will be because you were the least worthless of the dregs that were left over from the screening process.
Ink away!!
I don't have tats. This means you are not going to be in the same league as me. I'm going to get the job/promotion, not because I'm better, smarter, or more educated. I'll get the job, because I'm more mature.
The logic escapes me.
Be a non-conformist, reject the values of our society and tell society to go forth and muliply. Then curse society for not accepting you.
On behalf of every person who has ever applied for the jobs you applied for, we thank you!! Just think, if/when you get hired; it won't be because of your appearance, talents and skills. It will be because you were the least worthless of the dregs that were left over from the screening process.
Ink away!!
to think that everyone of us don't make snap judgements about people, you had better go have a talk with your mother. We all judge. We decide if someone is safe for our family to be around, if that person can be trusted, if that person is attractive, etc. I doubt there is anyone that doesn't do it.
You can dress (or undress) or adorn yourself however you want. You can bath or not, comb your hair however you want. But, whatever you do is a walking advertisement of who and what you are. If you don't like people reactions, change how you look. But, don't give us this drivel about being judged or discriminated against because of your dress and looks. That's reality. If you don't understand that, you are living in a dream world. There are consequences to everything. How we are judged by others is a consequence of how we choose to present ourselves.
You can dress (or undress) or adorn yourself however you want. You can bath or not, comb your hair however you want. But, whatever you do is a walking advertisement of who and what you are. If you don't like people reactions, change how you look. But, don't give us this drivel about being judged or discriminated against because of your dress and looks. That's reality. If you don't understand that, you are living in a dream world. There are consequences to everything. How we are judged by others is a consequence of how we choose to present ourselves.
You think that every mormon thinks a person with a tattoo is associated with the Devil. There a judgemental people among us, that is true. But that is not how we are taught to believe. Quite the contrary, we are taught not to judge others on their appearance, but from within. Unfortunately there are those who become immersed in self righteousness, and begin to view others who do not live the way they do as below them. Which is, in my opinion, another tool of the Devil, and they will have their own day of judgement from the only one who has the right to do so.
We do believe that the body is a temple, meaning, it is sacred. We believe that the body is a divine and precious gift that God gave to us to experience mortality. I would not choose to defile this sacred gift with piercings or tattoos because of this belief. But I realize that there are many who do not see the body in this way, and I admit that I am sad that they do not share this same vision, HOWEVER, they have their right to choose, and I respect that. Is it too much for us to ask for respect in return?
As a human I struggle with the temptation to stereotype when someone is different in appearance, whether it be tattoos or piercings or leather and chains, baggy pants and a backwards hat, mohawk, or whatever else may be. I try to remember that we are all children of God, and I search for the inner beauty. But for those of you who love to bash Mormons because of what we wear under our clothing, what we choose to intake or not partake into our body, where we worship, how we live; I would have to say that you do your own amount of stereotyping/judging in thinking that we all view the rest of you Satan seeking followers. This is absolutely not true. For those who are correctly living the gospel of Jesus Christ, we view you as an individual who has made different choices, and want to love you for the person that you are on the inside.
The most ignorant thing I have seen posted on this board, is the idea that everyone in the authority of hiring for Bountiful City must be Mormon because of this new policy. Does this mean that the government in Los Angeles and other cities with similar laws must also be Mormon? Of course not. Utah is a scapegoat for this kind of mentality simply because it is the state where our religion made it's home. You would be wise to reflect on the content of your own judgement, and ask yourself it you are any better than those on the other side of the fence.
We do believe that the body is a temple, meaning, it is sacred. We believe that the body is a divine and precious gift that God gave to us to experience mortality. I would not choose to defile this sacred gift with piercings or tattoos because of this belief. But I realize that there are many who do not see the body in this way, and I admit that I am sad that they do not share this same vision, HOWEVER, they have their right to choose, and I respect that. Is it too much for us to ask for respect in return?
As a human I struggle with the temptation to stereotype when someone is different in appearance, whether it be tattoos or piercings or leather and chains, baggy pants and a backwards hat, mohawk, or whatever else may be. I try to remember that we are all children of God, and I search for the inner beauty. But for those of you who love to bash Mormons because of what we wear under our clothing, what we choose to intake or not partake into our body, where we worship, how we live; I would have to say that you do your own amount of stereotyping/judging in thinking that we all view the rest of you Satan seeking followers. This is absolutely not true. For those who are correctly living the gospel of Jesus Christ, we view you as an individual who has made different choices, and want to love you for the person that you are on the inside.
The most ignorant thing I have seen posted on this board, is the idea that everyone in the authority of hiring for Bountiful City must be Mormon because of this new policy. Does this mean that the government in Los Angeles and other cities with similar laws must also be Mormon? Of course not. Utah is a scapegoat for this kind of mentality simply because it is the state where our religion made it's home. You would be wise to reflect on the content of your own judgement, and ask yourself it you are any better than those on the other side of the fence.
@LDSisLOVE - You are making a great point, I mean who ever heard of a mormon who is judgemental? that almost never happens.
@Dr.Evil - or did you just pick out what you wanted to object to. I clearly stated in the first paragraph that:
"There a judgemental people among us, that is true. But that is not how we are taught to believe."
I made several comments that stated that we are just as vulnerable to making judgements, placing stereotypes, and that not a single one of us is perfect.
It is disapointing that you would jump to this conclusion without taking the time to thoroughly read my post. You want all of us to understand you, but you aren't willing to reciprocate. You open the door to stereotype you by doing so as someone who is ignorant.
"There a judgemental people among us, that is true. But that is not how we are taught to believe."
I made several comments that stated that we are just as vulnerable to making judgements, placing stereotypes, and that not a single one of us is perfect.
It is disapointing that you would jump to this conclusion without taking the time to thoroughly read my post. You want all of us to understand you, but you aren't willing to reciprocate. You open the door to stereotype you by doing so as someone who is ignorant.
@LDSisLOVE - Unfortunately: Thats not the way it works with 90% of the LDS community. I am LDS but outside of Utah, LDS people are much more accepting of things such as tattoo's.
@Squad120fireguy - but I've lived in several states outside of Utah, and currently live in the Midwest. Most city and county governments have "professional dress and appearance codes" like this. I don't think that it's just a Utah thing. Most government offices don't have people with visible tattoos staffing them.
I happen to have several tatoos. I am also working towards my goal as a police officer. The tatoos I have that are visible should not embarrass anyone unless they have issues with my Irish heritage. I have worked several jobs as a security officer, not one of them have had me cover up my tat's. I see nothing wrong with them. I do not agree with this law, ink on someone's skin is not going to change their work ethic. I would rather have a partner coving my back who is tatooed and a good officer then someone who does not have any tatoos and not a good officer.
@spanky741 - Me wearing jeans at my job does not change my work ethic either. But the rules say I can't so I accept it. If I wore them every day and I got fired because I wouldn't wear something different, I don't think I could cry discrimination. They'd just laugh at me.
@spanky741 - Your logic is undeniable. I bet you would take $10 over $5 too, right. I am sure you would keep a good friend over a bad friend and would choose to keep your hand over cutting it off. There is no getting one by you.
No body is saying that a bad person is better than a good person with a tat...where did you come up with this?
No body is saying that a bad person is better than a good person with a tat...where did you come up with this?
@spanky741 - Amen to this guy, he's got it right. This is the kinda guy that I would want to see pulling me over (not that I'd want that at all, but you get the point).
it always cracks me up when people want to do stupid things and expect other people to go "OK !" i had a guy apply for a job with a raiders tattoo on his forehead, i asked him "what in the H--- made you do a thing like that for ? well i told him to take his PHD and get the H--- out of my mcdonalds.........
@Auto King - You have to have a Phd to run a Mcdonalds? Man they sure upped their standards!!
@Dr.Evil - ...now that you mention it, the guy who took a bath in the Burger King sink was COVERED with ink. Coincidence? I think not.
Well, now that he's been canned, I'm guessing Bountiful is off his short list of potential new employers
Well, now that he's been canned, I'm guessing Bountiful is off his short list of potential new employers
I'm loving the justification going on here. You have tats on your arm, a sleeve, whatever, you're probably fine. Good chance you're wearing a long sleeve shirt to work when working for a good portion of jobs with the city so you aren't going to have issues. No one thinks that someone with tattoos is incapable of being good at their job.
However, if you're some kind of freak with daddy issues that puts a tat on your face and think everyone is going to treat you normal, who are you kidding? Think about it, anyone that puts a tat on their face is doing it for attention and shock value. They aren't doing it to fit in. This is the U.S. We don't have a religious or cultural background involving tattoos. Now if you’re an islander from a south pacific country or a Maori from New Zealand or something where there is cultural significance, that's different. Doesn't mean you will fit in smoothly in the U.S. but most people can accept the significance behind that.
If you're some white kid that grew up in Murray though and have anger issues because you think your parents never understood you, you look like a freak and are going to be treated like a freak and don't act like it's all "OUR fault" or "OUR intolerance" if you end up working your whole life making minimum wage at jobs that have you come in when no customers or clients are around.
However, if you're some kind of freak with daddy issues that puts a tat on your face and think everyone is going to treat you normal, who are you kidding? Think about it, anyone that puts a tat on their face is doing it for attention and shock value. They aren't doing it to fit in. This is the U.S. We don't have a religious or cultural background involving tattoos. Now if you’re an islander from a south pacific country or a Maori from New Zealand or something where there is cultural significance, that's different. Doesn't mean you will fit in smoothly in the U.S. but most people can accept the significance behind that.
If you're some white kid that grew up in Murray though and have anger issues because you think your parents never understood you, you look like a freak and are going to be treated like a freak and don't act like it's all "OUR fault" or "OUR intolerance" if you end up working your whole life making minimum wage at jobs that have you come in when no customers or clients are around.
EOM
@Roger B. - I recently watched an old NBA all star game I had taped back in 1992. I could not see one visible tatoo on any of the players and Dennis Rodman was even playing in the game (This was before he went crazy with his tats.)It's amazing to see how things have changed in the NBA. I know alot of people claim tatoos are beautiful, but I think clean skin is beautiful.
@Roger B. - I've watched plenty of football and basketball games over the years with BYU athletes sporting tats...it's okay for their recruited athletes and nobody else? So, tats are good if it helps us keep winning at sports!
@Terry N. - BYU is more concerned with winning that obeying their own rules.
Nothing more than a glorified dating service that is pretty good at sports too.
Go Buckeyes
Nothing more than a glorified dating service that is pretty good at sports too.
Go Buckeyes
@Terry N. - because BYU is much more concerned with bringing in athletes to win and make the school more money than it is with staying true to their own standard. Do you think they would admit a regular student who met all of the criteria but had numerous visible tattoos?
If I go into a store and the person who is behind the counter has metal in their face and tattoo's I leave. This is very good.
@Mel C. - we wouldn't want close-minded judgemental folks like yourself out and about anyway.
@jrod - Because everyone who doesn't have a tat is closed-minded...if we use some peoples logic..!?!
Such a cop-out...always using the close-minded, mormon, discriminatory card.
Play the racist card next.
Such a cop-out...always using the close-minded, mormon, discriminatory card.
Play the racist card next.
@tarmac - Did I say that everyone who doesn't have a tat is close-minded? No. Mel stated that she leaves a store if someone has piercings or tattoos. Obviously she isn't open-minded and non-judgemental enough to deal with someone who has piercings and tattoos. So therefore she falls into that group. It doesn't mean everyone without a tattoo or piercings does.
I Think this is STUPID! I don't have any tattoo's myself (Yet) but I don't think that just because somebody has a tattoo that they are a bad person... Give people a break for crying out loud! Ask someone who has a tattoo why they got it and 90% of the time there is a great story behind the tattoo! I understand why Police, Fire and Gov't jobs have to do this because they are constantly in the public's eye and have had these tattoo and piercing rules for well over a decade so people know what they are getting into but the idea of a visible tattoo preventing someone from getting a good job somewhere in the city is just STUPID!
@Squad120fireguy - Most people do have a good story behind their tattoo. However, most people have tattoos on thier arms, back, or legs. Ask someone the story behind why they tattooed THEIR FACE and believe me, the quality of the "story behind the tattoo" drops significantly.
is all about the image that the city wants to portray. I suppose they have a right to do this, although I think it's ridiculous that tattoos matter so much to other people. Tattoos are different, therefore not totally excepted yet. When the majority of people start getting tattoos, that's when it will become socially acceptable, and then no one will want them. hahahaha
@speak ya clout - It's a problem with the business that they run! City-owned businesses AND personal businesses want to have a good rep and image of who works there! If I owned a business with clean-cut, professional employees, I believe people would come back.
I ate at a Denny's restraunt and saw the cook in the back. He had a goatee that hung to the middle of his chest, gigantic gauges in his ears and tattoos all over his neck. To me, he looked dirty! And I don't think I want someone cooking my food with that appearance! I definatly don't want some chin pube in my food!
My point is, the cleaner you are (or look), the better business you get.
I ate at a Denny's restraunt and saw the cook in the back. He had a goatee that hung to the middle of his chest, gigantic gauges in his ears and tattoos all over his neck. To me, he looked dirty! And I don't think I want someone cooking my food with that appearance! I definatly don't want some chin pube in my food!
My point is, the cleaner you are (or look), the better business you get.
Well, I hope not too many businesses take this line. Some of the people I see who are so horribly disfigured with tatoos and piercings would never be able to find a job and then they'd go on welfare and then we'd have to support them. Some people are a walking advertisement for the word "unemployable".
I wonder how and why they would go about making this an official policy. I mean, the practice of not hiring someone based on appearance is the right of the person doing the hiring. As long as they don't discriminate based on age, gender, ethnicity, or marital status, they don't have to hire anyone they don't want.
Do you think that if some guy with a face tattoo applied for a job that they would be stupid enough to tell him that he didn't get the job because of his tattoo? That HR person would be jobless in a minute. Any HR person with half a brain would come up with some other reason, such as maybe not being as "qualified" as other applicants. There's no need for a "policy".
Now, one area where this might cross the line is the piercings area. Stating that women can have pierced ears but men cannot is the very definition of discrimination. Usually people grey the issue by referring to "excessive piercings", leaving gender out of it.
I think they're setting themselves up to waste lots of taxpayer money fighting the ACLU at some point in the future.
Do you think that if some guy with a face tattoo applied for a job that they would be stupid enough to tell him that he didn't get the job because of his tattoo? That HR person would be jobless in a minute. Any HR person with half a brain would come up with some other reason, such as maybe not being as "qualified" as other applicants. There's no need for a "policy".
Now, one area where this might cross the line is the piercings area. Stating that women can have pierced ears but men cannot is the very definition of discrimination. Usually people grey the issue by referring to "excessive piercings", leaving gender out of it.
I think they're setting themselves up to waste lots of taxpayer money fighting the ACLU at some point in the future.
So, if there aren't any visible tattoos, will the employer conduct a strip search on the person applying for the position to make sure there are any icky tattoos? What if there is a Nemo tattoo on the body that is always covered by clothing and never sees the light of day?
it shouldn't surprise anyone because Bountiful thinks they're better than everyone else.
@virago - You're SO right virago. Every time I meet someone from Boutiful, all they do is go on and on about how superior they are to me. It's like they have town meetings where they rehearse what they are going to say to everyone not from Boutiful and how much they suck. It gets old after a while, huh?
[:\Sarcasm now turned OFF]
[:\Sarcasm now turned OFF]
@Alex S. - you're right! I was being sarcastic myself. I actually like people from Bountiful, allot of them are really nice and friendly. I thought we were talking about Sandy.
Tattoos are the work of the Devil. SO are peircings. Nobody should hire you if you look like that. Im glad they are doing this. yOU CANT GO TO HEAVEN IF YOU HAVE TATTOO'S. (WWJSD what would joseph smith do?)I know he wouldnt have any tattoo's. Go to church, ask god to forgive you and then get evil paint removed from your body!!!!
@Charles G. - You know what, God taught us not to judge!! Tattoos and piercings aren't really a bad thing. IT IS ALL PART OF A PERSON'S PERSONALLITY. You can't change what people do. Everyone deserves a job no matter what you look like, we have a family to support too. I am a mother of 2 and I have tattoos and a nose ring, so am I going to [removed]? I really can't believe you said that, for judging people you will [removed].
@Charles G. - you mean people can't go to heaven if they have a tattoo, where is that written? As for WWJD he would find some more underage cousins to marry.
@Charles G. - Guys, I know this Charles G. guy, he is just trying to get you all going. No sane LDS person thinks this way.
Yeah, here come the sane-LDS oxymormon/oxymoron jokes...bring it on :)
Yeah, here come the sane-LDS oxymormon/oxymoron jokes...bring it on :)
It amazes me what they come up with these days. Just because you have a tattoo doesnt make you a bad person. I bet if you seen me you would have no idea that i have a tattoo, I am a professional photographer, a mother of three and I believe a really nice person and i live in a nice home. Funny how people will stereotype. I hope it doesn't pass. I can understand if it was pornography or something of a hate crime, but then they should consider where it is and if it maybe covered up. I had my tattoo in high school and I had problems when i was a cheerleader but i just had to have it covered because i guess cheerleaders dont have tattoos yeah just not where anyone can see them.
@Colene - I'm pretty sure that Bountiful city didn't say because you have a tatto you're a "bad person." Don't over react, people, this is dealing specifically for working in a government office, not anything else.
As usual, we humans judge people by their "skin" and not by their heart. What tattoo ink and job performance have in common I will never know. I wonder does permanent cosmetics on the face done with a "tattoo gun" and tattoo ink" count in this silly law? It should if we are being fair...WAIT that would include about 80% of Bountiful's stuck up female population. Why don't we worry about serious issues instead of crap like this?
and let me add that I am a LDS member too. People have no idea how bad you make someone feel for something they have.(people in the church mainy)
this is the biggest joke i have heard in a long time!!! i agree that if the tattoo has inappropriate picts or words on it then that is ok. but i believe that it is peoples own decicions what they have on their OWN bodies and it should not make it hard for them to get a job. my husband and i are both attorneys and my husband has tattoos but they are cultural tattoos and i dont know what the problem is with that. i guess in any other state people are ok w tattoos but NOT in UTAH!!! what a joke!
@tapuosifamily - I agree. I work in HR and I have 3 clean tatttoos if someone was offended I would tell them not to look at me and go cry somewhere else!
Thanks for your post!
Thanks for your post!
@tapuosifamily - I have to agree its just Utah I moved here from out east and I cant BELIEVE some of the things this state will not let you do!
@tapuosifamily - I have to agree its just Utah I moved here from out east and I cant BELIEVE some of the things this state will not let you do!
we look down at china for the opening ceremonies when they replaced the nine year old who sang their national anthem with a better looking girl........
what is the difference with someone who has tattoos and can perform the job better than someone who doesnt have tattoos?
please explain?
I would love to hear you reasoning
what is the difference with someone who has tattoos and can perform the job better than someone who doesnt have tattoos?
please explain?
I would love to hear you reasoning
@Zach L. - You need a new moral compass, yours is totally useless if you cannot tell the difference between deception and setting standards for hiring.
The girl who sang the song, was not as cute as the girl that mimicked the song. It this the fault of anyone? Did the girl who sang the song voluntarily mutilate herself, or was she simply less attractive at her age, when compared against the televised girl with pig-tails? Think hard.
Now, no one said anything about not hiring ugly people. To a large degree, we have little control over our appearance. We can be clean, we can keep our hair cut and maintain the best possible appearance we can - but most of us will never be models.
However, every single adult with an IQ above 80, has the legal right to make stupid decisions. You can make stupid decisions that will permanently impact your future, your career and your life. You can drop out of High School. You can become a drug addict, you can become a violent felon, a theif and embezzle. All of these stupid choices will have consequences that you will pay for the rest of your life.
Or, you can get tattoos on your face and hands and identify yourself as a felon-wannabe and a thug. When you identify yourself as an undesirable person - people will react accordingly.
Good grief .... you really didn't know this? Let me take a wild guess .... Democrat, right?
The girl who sang the song, was not as cute as the girl that mimicked the song. It this the fault of anyone? Did the girl who sang the song voluntarily mutilate herself, or was she simply less attractive at her age, when compared against the televised girl with pig-tails? Think hard.
Now, no one said anything about not hiring ugly people. To a large degree, we have little control over our appearance. We can be clean, we can keep our hair cut and maintain the best possible appearance we can - but most of us will never be models.
However, every single adult with an IQ above 80, has the legal right to make stupid decisions. You can make stupid decisions that will permanently impact your future, your career and your life. You can drop out of High School. You can become a drug addict, you can become a violent felon, a theif and embezzle. All of these stupid choices will have consequences that you will pay for the rest of your life.
Or, you can get tattoos on your face and hands and identify yourself as a felon-wannabe and a thug. When you identify yourself as an undesirable person - people will react accordingly.
Good grief .... you really didn't know this? Let me take a wild guess .... Democrat, right?
What's the first thing someone does when they graduate from college? Get a haircut!
Let's face reality here. Corporate America doesn't hire people with lots of visible tattoos or other body modifications. Want your ears gauged? Fine, just don't expect to get a job in a professional environment. Like visible tattoos? There again, your hiring chances just dropped.
No one is saying people with lots of tattoos aren't trustworthy, smart individuals. What we are saying is keep them hidden from sight.
Most HR departments would hire a cute chick with a bubbly personality over the girl who has an impeccable education and visible tattoos. Same thing goes for guys; keep your body mods hidden on and off work.
I'm a Harley rider myself and I'm around tattooed/bearded dudes all the time. You can tell the ones though who know how to play the game and work in a professional atmosphere. Their tattoos are on upper arms and their beards are well groomed.
You can still be a rebel and work in corporate America. Just keep things hidden while at work and no one will be any wiser.
Let's face reality here. Corporate America doesn't hire people with lots of visible tattoos or other body modifications. Want your ears gauged? Fine, just don't expect to get a job in a professional environment. Like visible tattoos? There again, your hiring chances just dropped.
No one is saying people with lots of tattoos aren't trustworthy, smart individuals. What we are saying is keep them hidden from sight.
Most HR departments would hire a cute chick with a bubbly personality over the girl who has an impeccable education and visible tattoos. Same thing goes for guys; keep your body mods hidden on and off work.
I'm a Harley rider myself and I'm around tattooed/bearded dudes all the time. You can tell the ones though who know how to play the game and work in a professional atmosphere. Their tattoos are on upper arms and their beards are well groomed.
You can still be a rebel and work in corporate America. Just keep things hidden while at work and no one will be any wiser.
@WEM - Since when is local government corporate America?
@Dr.Evil - Our federal government won't allow anyone to join the military with body mods or many visible tattoos. If the federal government can get away with it, I'm pretty sure Bountiful can do the same thing.
If someone wants to work for Bountiful and their arms are covered in tattoos, wear long sleeves everyday.
If someone wants to work for Bountiful and their arms are covered in tattoos, wear long sleeves everyday.
Everyone is different. We all have a different personallity! To me this isn't a big deal at all, we are all loveable, alot of people that have tattoos might look mean but are very nice people. Do you really think people with tattoos judge you, why judge them?
to read so I will just comment with my opinion lol.
Both sides have their points.
Lets start with the the people FOR the law.
In most work places, people expect the workers to take care of themselves. Look good, well groomed, dress nice ect. Because it makes it seem like the company as a whole is clean, well groomed. And by caring about how they and the company looks. It makes it seem like they care about how a mistake will make them look bad. Which means they will try their best not to make mistakes. Which is good.
Now for people AGIANST the law.
Tattoos are a form of expression. It shows people what you feel, belive in and stand for. Before you ever speak. Same thing as wearing religious jelwery, sport jerserys, school colors ect. Its just a way to express ones self. And by saying "Your tatto of music notes around your wrist makes us look bad. You cant work for us." is discrimination. Its like saying ANYONE with a visible tatto. Is looked down upon as someone who isn't as good as a person with no tattos.
Almost as if having a tatto makes you a lower class of human, criminal almost.
So both sides have their opinions and points.
I for one belive a tatoo should not make you a lower class. As long as it isn't offensive such as killing another human, porn, race discrimination. Ect.
If its just like a wolf, music notes, flowers. Stuff like that. Why should that be looked down upon?
Piercings are the same, just another way to express yourself. Looking at someone who has a nose ring or a rose on their neck. Does not hurt nor discriminate people in anyway. So why ban it? If so, wearing anything religous should be banned as well. Not everyone belives in the same thing. And not everyone wants to see symbols of anothers faith.
Just My 2cents. Troll Away.
Both sides have their points.
Lets start with the the people FOR the law.
In most work places, people expect the workers to take care of themselves. Look good, well groomed, dress nice ect. Because it makes it seem like the company as a whole is clean, well groomed. And by caring about how they and the company looks. It makes it seem like they care about how a mistake will make them look bad. Which means they will try their best not to make mistakes. Which is good.
Now for people AGIANST the law.
Tattoos are a form of expression. It shows people what you feel, belive in and stand for. Before you ever speak. Same thing as wearing religious jelwery, sport jerserys, school colors ect. Its just a way to express ones self. And by saying "Your tatto of music notes around your wrist makes us look bad. You cant work for us." is discrimination. Its like saying ANYONE with a visible tatto. Is looked down upon as someone who isn't as good as a person with no tattos.
Almost as if having a tatto makes you a lower class of human, criminal almost.
So both sides have their opinions and points.
I for one belive a tatoo should not make you a lower class. As long as it isn't offensive such as killing another human, porn, race discrimination. Ect.
If its just like a wolf, music notes, flowers. Stuff like that. Why should that be looked down upon?
Piercings are the same, just another way to express yourself. Looking at someone who has a nose ring or a rose on their neck. Does not hurt nor discriminate people in anyway. So why ban it? If so, wearing anything religous should be banned as well. Not everyone belives in the same thing. And not everyone wants to see symbols of anothers faith.
Just My 2cents. Troll Away.
@SwedishRogue - You said "so, wearing anything religous should be banned as well. Not everyone belives in the same thing. And not everyone wants to see symbols of anothers faith. "
If you worked in a professional environment, you would know that these things are banned. If you are Jewish, and are purchasing a home, would you buy a home from a Real Estate Agent sporting the Cresent and Moon? Probably not. In the professional world, sports jerseys, religous jewelry, religious artwork, posters of babes in sexy clothing is all banned.
Why? Because appearances count. They always have, they always will. If you are having surgery, and have the choice between 2 surgeons - one has a face full of metal and tats, the other is 'normal'. Which one do you trust with your life?
When is the last time you saw a medical doctor with a visible tattoo? A lawyer? Engineer? Bank executive? Real Estate Agent?
You don't see successful people sporting 'tats'. However, you can go to any dive and see lots of very unsuccessful people who got 'tats' galore. It's a lot harder to be successful than it is to purchase a $50 tattoo. A smart man/woman knows that the tatto will not help him achieve anything in life, and will certainly hurt his chances of advancement.
So, go ahead and identify yourself as a lower-class member of society. You and your close friends may know differently; but don't expect the rest of the world to bother to take the time to get to know you, before they judge you. You have just identified yourself as a thug, expect to be treated as such.
Then, again; to the 'real' thugs - you are just a poser.
If you worked in a professional environment, you would know that these things are banned. If you are Jewish, and are purchasing a home, would you buy a home from a Real Estate Agent sporting the Cresent and Moon? Probably not. In the professional world, sports jerseys, religous jewelry, religious artwork, posters of babes in sexy clothing is all banned.
Why? Because appearances count. They always have, they always will. If you are having surgery, and have the choice between 2 surgeons - one has a face full of metal and tats, the other is 'normal'. Which one do you trust with your life?
When is the last time you saw a medical doctor with a visible tattoo? A lawyer? Engineer? Bank executive? Real Estate Agent?
You don't see successful people sporting 'tats'. However, you can go to any dive and see lots of very unsuccessful people who got 'tats' galore. It's a lot harder to be successful than it is to purchase a $50 tattoo. A smart man/woman knows that the tatto will not help him achieve anything in life, and will certainly hurt his chances of advancement.
So, go ahead and identify yourself as a lower-class member of society. You and your close friends may know differently; but don't expect the rest of the world to bother to take the time to get to know you, before they judge you. You have just identified yourself as a thug, expect to be treated as such.
Then, again; to the 'real' thugs - you are just a poser.
What it boils down to is the local Mormon Government trying restrict non-mormons from coming into their sights. Realistictly a lot of mormons have pierced ears and some have permanent makeup, and yes they have tattoo's. So what's the difference? The difference is they think they are better than everyone else, thats what they are taught and they believe it. Somehow i doubt God will shun anyone for having a tattoo or other.
@Dr.Evil - I couldnt agree more. So this little miss perfect mormon girl I know lectures me all the time on my 3 tattoos in non-visable places. Yet little miss perfect has perm. eye and lip make up.
Hipocrite!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hipocrite!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@Mrs.Sparkles - just like they are supposed to be soooo accepting of everybody but I think they are probably they first ones to turn certain people away.
@Dr.Evil - I've read your posts Dr. Evil and know how you're hot and bothered by turning this into a "mormons are against me" bash (and if you want to argue with me I'm not mormon nor a mormon-appologist so you'll have to find another basis), but that has little if any relevance to the city's decision. The issue isn't even neccessarily if you have tattoos, its what kind of tattoos and where you have them that is the issue and that's it. If you have a graphic tattoo in a highly visible place or you are a freak with your face tattooed, you're violating a cultural norm (not just here but all over our country and many others) and the City of Bountiful isn't going to hire you. If you have a tattoo like that, this isn't shocking news. You got it because you wanted to be different and situations like this are the consequence. You can try to manipulate it into something more, but that's it.
@Alex S. - Utah's majority is Mormon and you think that they are in no way trying to make laws prohibiting certain things that are against their religious beliefs? I know Mormons are not against me and most are good people, but that doesn't mean their beliefs should be law, ever hear of seperation of church and state?
@Dr.Evil - and that policy gets taken out of context more than about any government policy I'm aware of. I agree with you to a point. I have a firm belief that mormon beliefs govern the DABC which frustrates me every time I order a drink. Still though, the policy that was first written in this article (which I just noticed KSL conveniently deleted) was that the issue wasn't with tats themselves but what they were of and where they were located. They specifically mentioned the face and area between the thumb and forefinger. It never mentioned people couldn't have tattoos, just that they had to be covered. That by no means restrictive to Utah, other religious areas or conservative areas for that matter.
@Dr.Evil - Is it also all the mormons in LA making the same policy, The Mormon generals in the armed forces forbiding excessive tatoos? This isn't a unique Utah/Mormon issue.
is why did they make it policy. Just have the HR people not hire them on the basis of "unprofessional looking," and it would never even be a problem.
@faramir75 - I work in HR and I have 3 clean tattoos. Maybe HR for any company shouldnt hire you because you are ignorant!
@Mrs.Sparkles - Are your tattoos visible Mrs.Sparkles? If not then there's no problem whatsoever. However, if tattoos are excessive and visible then you know as well as I do depending on the position people are going for that they will be denied a job based on their appearance.
@WEM - One on my upper back that is visable. I have the short A-Line haircut. Yes you can see it. If you dont like it though, just dont look at it. PERIOD.
Oh and my husband has his Irish family shield on his back. Not offensive at all.
Oh and my husband has his Irish family shield on his back. Not offensive at all.
@Mrs.Sparkles - I'm Irish too, good for your husband to have his family crest. The best part is.....it's on his back and plainly not visible.
Never said I was against tattoos, just that having one visible isn't going to help someone during the hiring process.
Never said I was against tattoos, just that having one visible isn't going to help someone during the hiring process.
I have visable tattoos on my arm and work in the car business selling cars, I have noticed when I wear shorter sleeve shirts people tend to be more stand offish than normal but because I have a good personality even when they are LDS members people become open to me. Poeple need to stop being so prejiduce on what other people are doing with there lives and worry about what they're doing in there lives, especially if you're LDS, doesn't the church teach thou shalt not judge? Isn't that left for god to do?
@instasian - If you wore a blue bandana, not to show gang affiliation, but just because it was comfortable, do you expect the public should over-look that and proceed to trust you with their money?
I'd imagine that if you had not foolishly inked your arm up, you would make a lot more sales. I would venture to state that a lot of people go out of their way to avoid talking to you, because of your tats. I know I would. I'm not saying that you are an evil, criminal or abusive person.
What I am saying is that you have chosen to camoflage yourself as a preditor. Generally speaking, sane people avoid predators. Why? Because I see tats covering the arms of thugs and criminals. I see junkies and bums that can't hold a job, but can manage to find $50 for a tat. Tats, in today's society are not an emblem of success.
When you go out of your way to identify yourself as a failure, a misfit and a non-conformist; don't expect the rest of the world to 'conform' to you. Isn't that the whole point of the 'non-conformist' culture? I mean, generally speaking, a non-conformist holds society in utter contempt - but now you demand that society accept you as an equal?
I'd imagine that if you had not foolishly inked your arm up, you would make a lot more sales. I would venture to state that a lot of people go out of their way to avoid talking to you, because of your tats. I know I would. I'm not saying that you are an evil, criminal or abusive person.
What I am saying is that you have chosen to camoflage yourself as a preditor. Generally speaking, sane people avoid predators. Why? Because I see tats covering the arms of thugs and criminals. I see junkies and bums that can't hold a job, but can manage to find $50 for a tat. Tats, in today's society are not an emblem of success.
When you go out of your way to identify yourself as a failure, a misfit and a non-conformist; don't expect the rest of the world to 'conform' to you. Isn't that the whole point of the 'non-conformist' culture? I mean, generally speaking, a non-conformist holds society in utter contempt - but now you demand that society accept you as an equal?
@Hodar - You just described how people are judging him perfectly, you must have drain bramage. (kidding of course)
@Hodar - I don't see how in any way I've camoflauged myself as a preditor? It's very shallow to say you wouldn't buy a car from me because I have tattoos, it's quite sad actually. 80% of my customers don't even know I have tattoos and I'll bet the car salesman you bought from had tattoos. There's a difference between a $50 tattoo that someone made out of guitar string and a toy car motor than someone who's put actual thought and money and the tattoos mean something to them.
Not once did I say that I was failing at what I did, people actually like my tattoos because they have creative meaning and there's a story behind all of them. And no I don't demand society to accept me as an equal. I'm not going to ask someone to think of me different for my actions except that they don't judge a book by the cover.
And as for "foolishly" inking up my arm that comment says a lot of how you are judging and people are judging simply because you or others wouldn't do that is a pittiful statement. I don't stop being friends with someone because I found out there gay or live a different lifestyle than me. Welcome to a world where over 6 billion people live in and everyone is different. I would imagine you don't have a lot of friends because you are so shallow and I'm sorry that you are. I hope God can see it right in his heart to understand that you can judge people simply by what they have on there body......quite sad if you ask me
Not once did I say that I was failing at what I did, people actually like my tattoos because they have creative meaning and there's a story behind all of them. And no I don't demand society to accept me as an equal. I'm not going to ask someone to think of me different for my actions except that they don't judge a book by the cover.
And as for "foolishly" inking up my arm that comment says a lot of how you are judging and people are judging simply because you or others wouldn't do that is a pittiful statement. I don't stop being friends with someone because I found out there gay or live a different lifestyle than me. Welcome to a world where over 6 billion people live in and everyone is different. I would imagine you don't have a lot of friends because you are so shallow and I'm sorry that you are. I hope God can see it right in his heart to understand that you can judge people simply by what they have on there body......quite sad if you ask me
...that they will also institute a mandatory strip search during the hiring process. How else will you be able to know if the person wearing the nice clothes, clean appearance and nice hair is tattoo free or not. Most people don't tattoo their hands and face like Mr. Dipstick that everyone here likes to compare all tattooed people with. You would be surprised at who has tattoos and who doesn't.
Get over it people. Inked skin doesn't mean you have hate in your soul and ink free skin doesn't mean you don't.
Get over it people. Inked skin doesn't mean you have hate in your soul and ink free skin doesn't mean you don't.
There is a big difference in what a public entity like City government can do in respect ot hiring and what a person can do with a private business. The City has no good basis for restricting hiring to factors that are not job related. It would obviously be offensive for the City to require that their workers adhere to missionary standards of dress because most of the people in Bountiful would feel better about being served by clean cut youngsters. God forbid that they might be served by someone that is old or might have a beard or heavens even a ear ring. I hear some people are uncomfortable in Bountiful being served by minorities. Get a life and recognize that Martin Luther King said that he had a dream where a person would be judged not by their color (or by a tatoo) but by the content of their character (and their abilities).
@Kent W. - 1) Tatoos and adult pornography are protected under the the First amendment of the COnstitution of the United States.
2) No where in the constitution, or Uinted States Code, does it say those with tatoos are a protected class in discrimination cases. That is reserved for Race, Gender, disabilities. Not tatoos...
3) The military has a very similar policy, which they can deny your entry if a certain percentage of visible skin has tatoos on it. People have challened that rule, and have lost.
Now I'm not saying tatoos are bad, hell I got a few myself. But, if your employer wishes to set standard for professional appearance there is nothing you can do about it. Unless they tell you the pigment of your skin is agains dress code, bras are against dress code, or your one-legged jeans dont fit dress code.
2) No where in the constitution, or Uinted States Code, does it say those with tatoos are a protected class in discrimination cases. That is reserved for Race, Gender, disabilities. Not tatoos...
3) The military has a very similar policy, which they can deny your entry if a certain percentage of visible skin has tatoos on it. People have challened that rule, and have lost.
Now I'm not saying tatoos are bad, hell I got a few myself. But, if your employer wishes to set standard for professional appearance there is nothing you can do about it. Unless they tell you the pigment of your skin is agains dress code, bras are against dress code, or your one-legged jeans dont fit dress code.
@Kent W. - Don't try to put words into Dr. Kings speech. I doubt he was refering to tatoos but the God given color of their skin and the descrimination against him because of it. He had no choice of the color of his skin, he didn't walk into a shop and asked for his skin color so don't try to combine skin color with tatoos.
It's interesting to me to read all the posts about how judgmental this policy is. We are a society which judges on looks. I see someone in a cowboy hat and big belt buckle, I believe them to be a cowboy. Ballet shoes and tutu, hiking boots and gear; the list is endless. Saturday I saw a kid in home depot with about eight 1 inch spikes protruding out of his bald head in a mohawk style. That screams all kinds of personality "possibilities" to me, none of which are positive. Until we know people, we have to judge by what we are able to perceive. Let's face it, I'm not going to "get to know" a police man or woman who is assisting me. If I got pulled over by the Mohawk Kid, there's no way I'd unroll my window. Like it or not, we assess with the information given us. Tattoos don't measure up well in that assessment process.
I would rather be helped by someone that has a lot of tattoos then someone smelling like they just smoked a pack or that I could swear does meth.
That being said, every where you look, in t.v. movies and in the real world, people who have A Lot of tattoos are looked at as "different" which is why my brother said he got his, so why is it so shocking that you will be treated diffently when you do something to be different?
I don't mind alot of tattos anymore, I mind the snotty girl sitting at the desk talking on the phone staring at me like "what do you want?"
That being said, every where you look, in t.v. movies and in the real world, people who have A Lot of tattoos are looked at as "different" which is why my brother said he got his, so why is it so shocking that you will be treated diffently when you do something to be different?
I don't mind alot of tattos anymore, I mind the snotty girl sitting at the desk talking on the phone staring at me like "what do you want?"
I really don't have a problem with tattoos in general, I have seen some that are quite nice looling pieces of art and that the one who has them put a lot of effort or thought into it.
The things that would shock me are the excessive piercings on the head and ears or the tat's all around the head. I find it hard to look at someone in the eyes while talking and see all the metal dangling all over the place from various parts of the face.
The things that would shock me are the excessive piercings on the head and ears or the tat's all around the head. I find it hard to look at someone in the eyes while talking and see all the metal dangling all over the place from various parts of the face.
What a SOCIAL DISEASE!!!! I won't even socialize with anyone with one. Don't want to catch whatever it is they have contracted. EEWWW....YUCK!!!
@Greysriver - I don't like tattoos but come on, there are far worse things in life. (althouhg I will never get one) As fas being pulled over at night by a cop with tattoos... I don't even trust a cop with out tattoos any more, I go to a well lite, and busy area. I understand their desire to not have people with tattoos work with them, but I don't know that it's that big of a deal
@Greysriver - You disgust me. I would like to meet you so I can find something wrong with you so I can be judgeful and close minded like you.
@Greysriver - You should get a tattoo of a brain on your forehead, i'm pretty sure there is not one in your head.
Give me a break, stupid people shouldn't make laws. I have met angels with tatoo's in my life and devil's in garments! Don't judge a book by it's cover, I grew up with a girl who had a bright red birth mark that covered half of her face, and half of her body, she was the most beautiful person on the inside, but few people took the time to get to know her because they didn't want to look her in the eye! So I have made it a point throughout my life to look beyond the immediate response and get to the know the person behind the face, and guess what? There are some beautiful people out there that I wouldn't trust with my life, and some so called offesively tatooed people that I would trust!
To clarify many of u ASSUME that because you have a tattoo or many tattoos that your not a good person , to start lets not Assume common spell it out with me [no swearing please]/u/me thats when u assume you make an [no swearing please] out of u and me , common people just because many of us have tattoos does not give you or the government to discriminate against any one , this is just a lawsuit waiting to happen !!!!! if i were Samoan and i had the traditional tattoos of honor and respect on my arms would i not get hired due to having tattoos that have religious backing in my home country , or what if i were from india where in some cultiures there religion requires them to perice their face as a sign of respect to their gods , would i be declined employ due to my religious belifes ????? no because the law prohibits descrimination against sex,color , age, disability , national orign , and even sexual preferance , so now down and dirty iv lived in utah for 10 years and i can say im more offended by walking into a business to find a snobby , stuck up , aragant , lds who thinks that because they served their god that the world owes them !
well wake up people take a good look around and realize that your not alone on this earth and that your beliefs are not the only ones , just because you don't find tattoos or piercings attractive or professional others of us can see past the "art" and see the true person behind it , who knows if u try you might find you've learned something some of the tattoo wearing pierced people your all so down on may actually surprise you , so take your head out and quit being such a hypocritical and demeaning society find something better to with your time then to sit here and complain about us that choose to be ourselves!!!!!
well wake up people take a good look around and realize that your not alone on this earth and that your beliefs are not the only ones , just because you don't find tattoos or piercings attractive or professional others of us can see past the "art" and see the true person behind it , who knows if u try you might find you've learned something some of the tattoo wearing pierced people your all so down on may actually surprise you , so take your head out and quit being such a hypocritical and demeaning society find something better to with your time then to sit here and complain about us that choose to be ourselves!!!!!
Its about time people are starting to be bothered by these non attractive people in our society. I like how everyone that has tatoos is jumping all over this to defend themselves... oh yah i just love how we let people work in the food industry that are all painted up.... yummy fries I wonder how many germs are all over these???
@XR400 - Good job judging people, I don't have any tattoo's but dont care if someone else does, see if your parents will let you out of that bubble your in.
@XR400 - You are soooo stupid. What makes you think that since they have tattoos they have germs? You are another ignorant poster in this pathetic judgemental state of UT.
I would like to start out by sharing that the man standing in the photo for this article is my father! Kelly Miller is my dad, and I have been around tattooing for my entire life and I have tattoos myself.
This is against the Bill of Rights and the Constitution, period.
If you walked up to me and shook my hand and we had a good conversation and there was no time at all that you were offended or thought that I was a bad person and I turned and walked away you would see that I have tattoos, and then while my back is turned is when you are going to make your judgement about me?? I think that you should be able to tell me to my face so I can teach you about my rights that I have.
In fact, I would like to share that I help you with your rights everyday, I'm in the Army and I have been to combat and fought for "you" to have your rights.
I think that you need to consider that criminals without tattoos are still criminals, and good people with tattoos are still good people. You can't say people with tattoos are criminals or bad people. I know many, many people that have tattoos that are the best people in the world.
If you think that this should be the way, I think you need to wake up and walk out the door to the "world."
Many are sheltered from the world because of what they are afraid to do, and afraid to see.
This is against the Bill of Rights and the Constitution, period.
If you walked up to me and shook my hand and we had a good conversation and there was no time at all that you were offended or thought that I was a bad person and I turned and walked away you would see that I have tattoos, and then while my back is turned is when you are going to make your judgement about me?? I think that you should be able to tell me to my face so I can teach you about my rights that I have.
In fact, I would like to share that I help you with your rights everyday, I'm in the Army and I have been to combat and fought for "you" to have your rights.
I think that you need to consider that criminals without tattoos are still criminals, and good people with tattoos are still good people. You can't say people with tattoos are criminals or bad people. I know many, many people that have tattoos that are the best people in the world.
If you think that this should be the way, I think you need to wake up and walk out the door to the "world."
Many are sheltered from the world because of what they are afraid to do, and afraid to see.
@onestarsoldier - "This is against the Bill of Rights and the Constitution, period."
Which part of the Bill of Rights is this against, and which part of the Constitution is this again? And please, PLEASE don't use the tired excuse of freedom of speech.
"If you walked up to me and shook my hand and we had a good conversation and there was no time at all that you were offended or thought that I was a bad person and I turned and walked away you would see that I have tattoos, and then while my back is turned is when you are going to make your judgement about me?? I think that you should be able to tell me to my face so I can teach you about my rights that I have."
Some people are just way too swayed by public opinion if they change their mind based on that.
"In fact, I would like to share that I help you with your rights everyday, I'm in the Army and I have been to combat and fought for "you" to have your rights."
Are you sure you were fighting for me to have my rights, or were you fighting for Big Oil in the middle east?
"I think that you need to consider that criminals without tattoos are still criminals, and good people with tattoos are still good people. You can't say people with tattoos are criminals or bad people. I know many, many people that have tattoos that are the best people in the world."
Someone should do a study about what percentage of people in prison have tattoos. I'm pretty sure that is a direct correlation to criminals. Then do a study say, of the top philanthropists and see if the percentage is the same.
"If you think that this should be the way, I think you need to wake up and walk out the door to the "world." Many are sheltered from the world because of what they are afraid to do, and afraid to see."
I'd be afraid to see some clown with a face full of tattoos walking up on my family too, look how well represented Allgiers is in the news.
Which part of the Bill of Rights is this against, and which part of the Constitution is this again? And please, PLEASE don't use the tired excuse of freedom of speech.
"If you walked up to me and shook my hand and we had a good conversation and there was no time at all that you were offended or thought that I was a bad person and I turned and walked away you would see that I have tattoos, and then while my back is turned is when you are going to make your judgement about me?? I think that you should be able to tell me to my face so I can teach you about my rights that I have."
Some people are just way too swayed by public opinion if they change their mind based on that.
"In fact, I would like to share that I help you with your rights everyday, I'm in the Army and I have been to combat and fought for "you" to have your rights."
Are you sure you were fighting for me to have my rights, or were you fighting for Big Oil in the middle east?
"I think that you need to consider that criminals without tattoos are still criminals, and good people with tattoos are still good people. You can't say people with tattoos are criminals or bad people. I know many, many people that have tattoos that are the best people in the world."
Someone should do a study about what percentage of people in prison have tattoos. I'm pretty sure that is a direct correlation to criminals. Then do a study say, of the top philanthropists and see if the percentage is the same.
"If you think that this should be the way, I think you need to wake up and walk out the door to the "world." Many are sheltered from the world because of what they are afraid to do, and afraid to see."
I'd be afraid to see some clown with a face full of tattoos walking up on my family too, look how well represented Allgiers is in the news.
@Brad H. - "Someone should do a study about what percentage of people in prison have tattoos. I'm pretty sure that is a direct correlation to criminals. Then do a study say, of the top philanthropists and see if the percentage is the same."
That's about the most flawed logic I've ever seen. I hope you never get to be chief of police, otherwise you'll surely start rounding up the tattoo-bearing folks. "If they're not criminals now, obviously they will be." Thoughtcrime! Skincrime!
And what makes philanthropists so high and mighty? Money? Charity? Tax Shelters?
That's about the most flawed logic I've ever seen. I hope you never get to be chief of police, otherwise you'll surely start rounding up the tattoo-bearing folks. "If they're not criminals now, obviously they will be." Thoughtcrime! Skincrime!
And what makes philanthropists so high and mighty? Money? Charity? Tax Shelters?
I have several tattoos, but I am no criminal. I do not pay my 10%, because I am not a dumb fool. I have probably helped you in your time of need, but you insist to wear your funny undies even though it's not for me. You tell people how to live and to believe, and you yourself even condemn polygamy. However when you enter your heaven which wife will you be? Overdosing on your prescriptions because your depressed...it's ok though becuase your name was on the instruction list. If you were told to jump from a cliff you'd probably do it because the bishop told you this. I see things that you cant imagine in my line of work, however the tat on arm offends you the worst. I keep you safe and feeling free, I'll cover it up, it doesn't bother me.....I didn't get it for you to judge....you see this mark on my arm is something I choose. I'm so sorry it offends you, and makes you sick....thats typical your an LDS Pr#$%
@ Brad H.
Why do I have to tell you what part of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution its a part of? You already know.. and it is FREEDOM OF SPEECH regardless of how much you like it or not.
Im sure that you would bass your opinion on me after I turned my back and you saw my tattoos, if you do that your a coward.
If you think that I went and fought in the war on terrorism because I wanted to fight for oil you need to pull your head out and look at the big picture, that the men and woman that fight for you are just following orders that is it.
I agree with you that the majority of people in prison have tattoos, why because they are bored out of their mind and they do it for the wrong reasons. To show their racist beliefs and what gangs they belong too, not for the purpose of art.
Yes people with tattoos on their face look a little odd, but that is just who they are, I have my own opinions about people that do that but its not prejudice nor will I discriminate against them because they choose to do that.
It will never pass, just stop trying while you can.
Why do I have to tell you what part of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution its a part of? You already know.. and it is FREEDOM OF SPEECH regardless of how much you like it or not.
Im sure that you would bass your opinion on me after I turned my back and you saw my tattoos, if you do that your a coward.
If you think that I went and fought in the war on terrorism because I wanted to fight for oil you need to pull your head out and look at the big picture, that the men and woman that fight for you are just following orders that is it.
I agree with you that the majority of people in prison have tattoos, why because they are bored out of their mind and they do it for the wrong reasons. To show their racist beliefs and what gangs they belong too, not for the purpose of art.
Yes people with tattoos on their face look a little odd, but that is just who they are, I have my own opinions about people that do that but its not prejudice nor will I discriminate against them because they choose to do that.
It will never pass, just stop trying while you can.
when some people raise their arm and their shirt rides up, BOOM there is their magic pajamas!!
that's offensive to some. WE BETTER BAN THEM TOO!!
that's offensive to some. WE BETTER BAN THEM TOO!!
I think we people that are encouraging this and think that tattoo's are "gross, germy" etc etc should be shot in the head and thrown into a pile. Stupid people should stop breeding and this would be the best way to put a stop to it.
I used to manage a gas station where we enforced a policy that stated men had to have short, well groomed hair, clean shaven face, and no piercings. Women could not have long or painted nails, only one earring per ear. Neither could have excessive jewelry, facial piercings, funny colored hair, or visible tattoos.
One guy decided to be defiant and "express himself" and came to work an earring. When I told him he had to remove it for work he threw a fit big enough to cause upper management to contact their lawyers about the situation (even though they should have known this already, this guy was the first to make a stink). Turns out, a company or organization has every legal right to create and enforce policies on dress code and appearance. They have the right to convey whatever image they'd like to the public and their customers.
Seriously, can you picture this guy working at an office, pecking away at a computer all day and answering client phone calls? Or could you imagine this guy hiring little miss Molly Mormon? Maybe, but probably not.
If you really feel like you have to get a tattoo to express yourself, be smart about it. Get them in places that can be covered for when you go in for that interview to get the better paying job. So if you've decided to cover your arms with tattoos and pierce every flap of skin on your face, that's your problem.
It is not legally considered discrimination unless it has to do with gender, race, age, sexual orientation or religion.
One guy decided to be defiant and "express himself" and came to work an earring. When I told him he had to remove it for work he threw a fit big enough to cause upper management to contact their lawyers about the situation (even though they should have known this already, this guy was the first to make a stink). Turns out, a company or organization has every legal right to create and enforce policies on dress code and appearance. They have the right to convey whatever image they'd like to the public and their customers.
Seriously, can you picture this guy working at an office, pecking away at a computer all day and answering client phone calls? Or could you imagine this guy hiring little miss Molly Mormon? Maybe, but probably not.
If you really feel like you have to get a tattoo to express yourself, be smart about it. Get them in places that can be covered for when you go in for that interview to get the better paying job. So if you've decided to cover your arms with tattoos and pierce every flap of skin on your face, that's your problem.
It is not legally considered discrimination unless it has to do with gender, race, age, sexual orientation or religion.
@melulula - Utah State on discrimination:
"The Antidiscrimination & Labor Division's Employment Discrimination focus is to administer and enforce the Utah Antidiscrimination Act of 1965, found at Utah Code Annotated, Title 34A Chapter 5. The Act prohibits employment discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, gender, religion, age, and disability. Utah's law also prohibits employment discrimination on the basis of pregnancy, childbirth, or pregnancy-related conditions."
"The Antidiscrimination & Labor Division's Employment Discrimination focus is to administer and enforce the Utah Antidiscrimination Act of 1965, found at Utah Code Annotated, Title 34A Chapter 5. The Act prohibits employment discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, gender, religion, age, and disability. Utah's law also prohibits employment discrimination on the basis of pregnancy, childbirth, or pregnancy-related conditions."
What is wrong with a company enforcing a dress code? I definitley think it is stupid to say no tattoos or body piercings, but it is the company's decision how they want to present their employees to the public. When Johnny Damon signed with the Yankees, they made him shave and cut his hair, because that is their policy. He wanted to play on that team, so he chose to obey their dress code.
I have 2 tattoos, one of them is visible on my foot. It was my decision to put it there, and any time I have gone somewhere for an interview, I have covered it up. I have been lucky enough to land a "cushy" job with an extremely high profile national company, and not have dress code really be an issue. There are times when "professional" dress is suggested-meetings and such, but there are people in upper management completely covered in tattoos and they display them proudly. My company is nationally known for their diversity, and like I said, I am a lucky.
I have worked places that are a lot more strict with their policies-I could not wear my gauges or nose ring while at work. I did not feel discriminated against, it didn't bother me at all. That was the company policy, and I followed it. The way I dress at work does not define who I am as a person.
Why anyone would want to work for Bountiful City is beyond me (smile), but if you want to work there bad enough, then follow their dress code. Plan and simple.
I have 2 tattoos, one of them is visible on my foot. It was my decision to put it there, and any time I have gone somewhere for an interview, I have covered it up. I have been lucky enough to land a "cushy" job with an extremely high profile national company, and not have dress code really be an issue. There are times when "professional" dress is suggested-meetings and such, but there are people in upper management completely covered in tattoos and they display them proudly. My company is nationally known for their diversity, and like I said, I am a lucky.
I have worked places that are a lot more strict with their policies-I could not wear my gauges or nose ring while at work. I did not feel discriminated against, it didn't bother me at all. That was the company policy, and I followed it. The way I dress at work does not define who I am as a person.
Why anyone would want to work for Bountiful City is beyond me (smile), but if you want to work there bad enough, then follow their dress code. Plan and simple.
I was born and raised in bountiful and this whole issue is church driven! bountiful is the land of the perfect tithe paying mormons and they want there town walls to be bordered with church influence. it sucks but thats the facts.
@NAVYVET - are not as crazy and closed minded as you think. I'm not a member of the church and never have been, but even in Utah I've met a lot of Mormons who really don't care if someone has a tattoo or isn't Mormon or whatever. It's not what they'd do, but they really don't care as much as you think.
You'll find similar situations such as this out of Bountiful and even out of Utah!
You'll find similar situations such as this out of Bountiful and even out of Utah!
For all you tat lova's...I'm sure Ogden city is looking for a few good inks on their team...O-town still needs to protect its image too
...... with tattoos on his face. I can't ever remember seen a medical doctor, a bank president, state governor, or a judge who has chosen to write on his/her face with non-erasable ink.
There is a reason why you will never see an airline pilot who has chosen to put graffiti on his face. You may see baggage handlers, and stock boys who have disfigured their faces but mature adults don't take them seriously.
There is a reason why you will never see an airline pilot who has chosen to put graffiti on his face. You may see baggage handlers, and stock boys who have disfigured their faces but mature adults don't take them seriously.
Dear Councilmen,
Fear is what you feel when you don’t know me. It’s natural for introverts and paranoids to feel that way. Prejudice is what you feel when you see that I’m different than you, but won’t accept the fact that I‘m as good as you. Prejudice is learned behavior and is not natural to feel this way. Hate is the emotion you feel when you accept prejudice. You’ll know you hate me, when you support segregating me from the masses with rules that only apply to me because of how I “look”.
Hate through Prejudice is the cancer of intellect, and can easily become infectious to those that have the same spiritual mind set. Bigotry is the exposed behavior of those that retain and live by any of those hateful emotions. Bigotry creates ostracism for no good reason. Bigotry on your part creates distrust of you on my part. Which is totally justified. Only fools knowingly trust a bigot. Suppression is what happens when good men do nothing about this type of evilness.
Retaliation is what you can expect ,when you suppress and separate Grand Fathers from Mothers, and Brothers from neighbors, and Heros from those protected, for no good reason. To the Bountiful Councilmen I must ask. What in heavens name are you trying to do? I’m thinking you’re intensionally creating a public nuisance, that is not really here. You may even be committing a hate crime, simply by creating creating a crime of hatred and mistrust of 30% of our population. (Somebody recently said 30% of the US population is now tattooed) Even if your actions are constitutional, (and they’re not) you are supporting hatred for no morally sound reason. If I were your Bishop you would be excommunicated.
To those Councilmen that created this community wide display of Prejudice and Bigotry shame on you, you have dishonored the public position you have been intrusted to uphold. As far as I can tell, you have broken your oath to uphold the Utah State and US Constitution. You should be ashamed of yourself and resign, or be impeached. As a Councilman you should be standing, for not only my right to free speech, but my right to the same liberty as you have, including the right to work for the people. Do I now not qualify to run for an elected position in Bountiful? You bet I do, I have the same right, as every other qualified person does, to enjoy a tax payer funded job position. It is not just a job you’re denying me, you’re also denying me the health, retirement and other social benefits (read constitutional rights) that come with the right of every tax payer to be represented in a fair and impartial manner, including the right to due process and the right to the jobs created by and paid for with my taxes paid. My Citizens right to pursue life, liberty, and happiness guarantees my right to any government job I’m qualified for. Citizen rights are color-blind, just as my right to Justice is. To prove my point. When I take the city to Court, I will not have to hide the color in my skin to have access to Justice.
Citizens have no logical reason to fear tattooed people. Rightfully applied Due process will weed out all thoughs that are socially unfit to represent the public in public. So please don’t support those that are trying to scare the public with the infamous swastika on the forehead scare tactic. Swastika's on foreheads are foolish, not scary. Using this type of hype to justify denying a person with a butterfly on their wrist from making a living wage from the parks department is absolutly asinine.
What is scary is knowing that the Judge, the Cop, the Tax man, the Garbage Collector, and the lifeguard at the public swim pool had to prove his/her loyalty to the puritans by supporting the hatred against colored people clause in their employment agreement. By the way, isn’t a forced agreement that violates the rights of other citizens, against the law and the rights of the employee to be free of coercion and political prejudice? You bet it is. If you’re a good person you better stand-up for your rights, the 2008 council of bountifools is trying to divide and separate good people from good people for no good reason.
As the Constitution, and I as a Citizen see it. I have the right to pursue happiness in any way that does not infringe on any ones right to do the same. This includes coloring my skin, enlarging my breasts, tattooing make-up on one eye lid or both, or tattooing Bountifool Councilman on my forehead,. I have the same right to change “MY” appearance any way I choose, the same as you do. Tattoos belong on people, like artificial hair color, eyeliner, lipstick and breast implants do. If it's illegal to see any of these body modifications in public, it’s legal to see them all.
You, as a fellow Citizen or Government Official have no right to limit my lawful appearance in public. If my earring poses a job related safety risk, it is reasonable to remove it, if possible, during work duties. Tattoos on the other hand can not interfere with a persons physical duties. Therefore you have NO constitutional right to determine my job skills according to the color of my skin. You will have to pass a total ban on public exposed tattoos before a limited exposure can be illegal. When working for the government I have the right to fill the position regardless of the color of my skin or the shape of my body. (see breast implants).
And by the way, tattoos no more indicate criminal behavior than breast implants indicate promiscuous women, nor does your wearing a neck tie indicate immoral white collar criminal activity on your part. Well maybe neck ties do indicate criminal intent, anyone that willfully violates their public oath to up hold the constitution as it is written on the day of the oath, is a criminal. (see the connection, neck ties are to white collar crime, as street crime is to tattoos). The Constitution strictly forbids the creation of a second class Citizen by any branch of Government, not even the righteous Bountiful city Council has the authority to do that.
Tattoos are not a problem. If the Citizens of Bountiful don’t feel comfortable seeing tattoos on their employees it is the councilmens job to delegate the funds needed to purchase the uniform and establish the psychological evaluation that gives the protection and security the citizens need.
Not hiring a person because of sever antisocial tendencies is not against the law, (unless it’s a disability) nor should it be. Expecting an Employee to cover (with cloths) antisocial tattoos is not entirely unreasonable either, but ostracizing a citizen for any non criminal coloring of their skin is. The creation of a second class citizen is not constitutional, or the friendly way I want Bountiful city to conduct business with my money. It is absolutely unconstitutional for Bountiful City to limit any ones Life, liberty or their pursuit of happiness.
I am a property owner in Bountiful City, therefore I do have the right to scold the Council of Bountifools for misbehaving in this irresponsible and troubling manner. I do not want the city to spend one cent of my tax money to defend this stupid ordinance. If the law has been passed, rescind it immediately. If it’s just in the works, drop the idea now, and take care of our constitution first and then attend to the more important duties that are required to run the city according to our existing laws. You also need to apologize to all of the good people that have tattoos. Good people with tattoos are still good people.
Sincerely
Kelly Miller, Tattoo Artist
Fear is what you feel when you don’t know me. It’s natural for introverts and paranoids to feel that way. Prejudice is what you feel when you see that I’m different than you, but won’t accept the fact that I‘m as good as you. Prejudice is learned behavior and is not natural to feel this way. Hate is the emotion you feel when you accept prejudice. You’ll know you hate me, when you support segregating me from the masses with rules that only apply to me because of how I “look”.
Hate through Prejudice is the cancer of intellect, and can easily become infectious to those that have the same spiritual mind set. Bigotry is the exposed behavior of those that retain and live by any of those hateful emotions. Bigotry creates ostracism for no good reason. Bigotry on your part creates distrust of you on my part. Which is totally justified. Only fools knowingly trust a bigot. Suppression is what happens when good men do nothing about this type of evilness.
Retaliation is what you can expect ,when you suppress and separate Grand Fathers from Mothers, and Brothers from neighbors, and Heros from those protected, for no good reason. To the Bountiful Councilmen I must ask. What in heavens name are you trying to do? I’m thinking you’re intensionally creating a public nuisance, that is not really here. You may even be committing a hate crime, simply by creating creating a crime of hatred and mistrust of 30% of our population. (Somebody recently said 30% of the US population is now tattooed) Even if your actions are constitutional, (and they’re not) you are supporting hatred for no morally sound reason. If I were your Bishop you would be excommunicated.
To those Councilmen that created this community wide display of Prejudice and Bigotry shame on you, you have dishonored the public position you have been intrusted to uphold. As far as I can tell, you have broken your oath to uphold the Utah State and US Constitution. You should be ashamed of yourself and resign, or be impeached. As a Councilman you should be standing, for not only my right to free speech, but my right to the same liberty as you have, including the right to work for the people. Do I now not qualify to run for an elected position in Bountiful? You bet I do, I have the same right, as every other qualified person does, to enjoy a tax payer funded job position. It is not just a job you’re denying me, you’re also denying me the health, retirement and other social benefits (read constitutional rights) that come with the right of every tax payer to be represented in a fair and impartial manner, including the right to due process and the right to the jobs created by and paid for with my taxes paid. My Citizens right to pursue life, liberty, and happiness guarantees my right to any government job I’m qualified for. Citizen rights are color-blind, just as my right to Justice is. To prove my point. When I take the city to Court, I will not have to hide the color in my skin to have access to Justice.
Citizens have no logical reason to fear tattooed people. Rightfully applied Due process will weed out all thoughs that are socially unfit to represent the public in public. So please don’t support those that are trying to scare the public with the infamous swastika on the forehead scare tactic. Swastika's on foreheads are foolish, not scary. Using this type of hype to justify denying a person with a butterfly on their wrist from making a living wage from the parks department is absolutly asinine.
What is scary is knowing that the Judge, the Cop, the Tax man, the Garbage Collector, and the lifeguard at the public swim pool had to prove his/her loyalty to the puritans by supporting the hatred against colored people clause in their employment agreement. By the way, isn’t a forced agreement that violates the rights of other citizens, against the law and the rights of the employee to be free of coercion and political prejudice? You bet it is. If you’re a good person you better stand-up for your rights, the 2008 council of bountifools is trying to divide and separate good people from good people for no good reason.
As the Constitution, and I as a Citizen see it. I have the right to pursue happiness in any way that does not infringe on any ones right to do the same. This includes coloring my skin, enlarging my breasts, tattooing make-up on one eye lid or both, or tattooing Bountifool Councilman on my forehead,. I have the same right to change “MY” appearance any way I choose, the same as you do. Tattoos belong on people, like artificial hair color, eyeliner, lipstick and breast implants do. If it's illegal to see any of these body modifications in public, it’s legal to see them all.
You, as a fellow Citizen or Government Official have no right to limit my lawful appearance in public. If my earring poses a job related safety risk, it is reasonable to remove it, if possible, during work duties. Tattoos on the other hand can not interfere with a persons physical duties. Therefore you have NO constitutional right to determine my job skills according to the color of my skin. You will have to pass a total ban on public exposed tattoos before a limited exposure can be illegal. When working for the government I have the right to fill the position regardless of the color of my skin or the shape of my body. (see breast implants).
And by the way, tattoos no more indicate criminal behavior than breast implants indicate promiscuous women, nor does your wearing a neck tie indicate immoral white collar criminal activity on your part. Well maybe neck ties do indicate criminal intent, anyone that willfully violates their public oath to up hold the constitution as it is written on the day of the oath, is a criminal. (see the connection, neck ties are to white collar crime, as street crime is to tattoos). The Constitution strictly forbids the creation of a second class Citizen by any branch of Government, not even the righteous Bountiful city Council has the authority to do that.
Tattoos are not a problem. If the Citizens of Bountiful don’t feel comfortable seeing tattoos on their employees it is the councilmens job to delegate the funds needed to purchase the uniform and establish the psychological evaluation that gives the protection and security the citizens need.
Not hiring a person because of sever antisocial tendencies is not against the law, (unless it’s a disability) nor should it be. Expecting an Employee to cover (with cloths) antisocial tattoos is not entirely unreasonable either, but ostracizing a citizen for any non criminal coloring of their skin is. The creation of a second class citizen is not constitutional, or the friendly way I want Bountiful city to conduct business with my money. It is absolutely unconstitutional for Bountiful City to limit any ones Life, liberty or their pursuit of happiness.
I am a property owner in Bountiful City, therefore I do have the right to scold the Council of Bountifools for misbehaving in this irresponsible and troubling manner. I do not want the city to spend one cent of my tax money to defend this stupid ordinance. If the law has been passed, rescind it immediately. If it’s just in the works, drop the idea now, and take care of our constitution first and then attend to the more important duties that are required to run the city according to our existing laws. You also need to apologize to all of the good people that have tattoos. Good people with tattoos are still good people.
Sincerely
Kelly Miller, Tattoo Artist
Dear Councilmen,
Fear is what you feel when you don’t know me. It’s natural for introverts and paranoids to feel that way. Prejudice is what you feel when you see that I’m different than you, but won’t accept the fact that I‘m as good as you. Prejudice is learned behavior and is not natural to feel this way. Hate is the emotion you feel when you accept prejudice. You’ll know you hate me, when you support segregating me from the masses with rules that only apply to me because of how I “look”.
Hate through Prejudice is the cancer of intellect, and can easily become infectious to those that have the same spiritual mind set. Bigotry is the exposed behavior of those that retain and live by any of those hateful emotions. Bigotry creates ostracism for no good reason. Bigotry on your part creates distrust of you on my part. Which is totally justified. Only fools knowingly trust a bigot. Suppression is what happens when good men do nothing about this type of evilness.
Retaliation is what you can expect ,when you suppress and separate Grand Fathers from Mothers, and Brothers from neighbors, and Heros from those protected, for no good reason. To the Bountiful Councilmen I must ask. What in heavens name are you trying to do? I’m thinking you’re intensionally creating a public nuisance, that is not really here. You may even be committing a hate crime, simply by creating creating a crime of hatred and mistrust of 30% of our population. (Somebody recently said 30% of the US population is now tattooed) Even if your actions are constitutional, (and they’re not) you are supporting hatred for no morally sound reason. If I were your Bishop you would be excommunicated.
To those Councilmen that created this community wide display of Prejudice and Bigotry shame on you, you have dishonored the public position you have been intrusted to uphold. As far as I can tell, you have broken your oath to uphold the Utah State and US Constitution. You should be ashamed of yourself and resign, or be impeached. As a Councilman you should be standing, for not only my right to free speech, but my right to the same liberty as you have, including the right to work for the people. Do I now not qualify to run for an elected position in Bountiful? You bet I do, I have the same right, as every other qualified person does, to enjoy a tax payer funded job position. It is not just a job you’re denying me, you’re also denying me the health, retirement and other social benefits (read constitutional rights) that come with the right of every tax payer to be represented in a fair and impartial manner, including the right to due process and the right to the jobs created by and paid for with my taxes paid. My Citizens right to pursue life, liberty, and happiness guarantees my right to any government job I’m qualified for. Citizen rights are color-blind, just as my right to Justice is. To prove my point. When I take the city to Court, I will not have to hide the color in my skin to have access to Justice.
Citizens have no logical reason to fear tattooed people. Rightfully applied Due process will weed out all thoughs that are socially unfit to represent the public in public. So please don’t support those that are trying to scare the public with the infamous swastika on the forehead scare tactic. Swastika's on foreheads are foolish, not scary. Using this type of hype to justify denying a person with a butterfly on their wrist from making a living wage from the parks department is absolutly asinine.
What is scary is knowing that the Judge, the Cop, the Tax man, the Garbage Collector, and the lifeguard at the public swim pool had to prove his/her loyalty to the puritans by supporting the hatred against colored people clause in their employment agreement. By the way, isn’t a forced agreement that violates the rights of other citizens, against the law and the rights of the employee to be free of coercion and political prejudice? You bet it is. If you’re a good person you better stand-up for your rights, the 2008 council of bountifools is trying to divide and separate good people from good people for no good reason.
As the Constitution, and I as a Citizen see it. I have the right to pursue happiness in any way that does not infringe on any ones right to do the same. This includes coloring my skin, enlarging my breasts, tattooing make-up on one eye lid or both, or tattooing Bountifool Councilman on my forehead,. I have the same right to change “MY” appearance any way I choose, the same as you do. Tattoos belong on people, like artificial hair color, eyeliner, lipstick and breast implants do. If it's illegal to see any of these body modifications in public, it’s legal to see them all.
You, as a fellow Citizen or Government Official have no right to limit my lawful appearance in public. If my earring poses a job related safety risk, it is reasonable to remove it, if possible, during work duties. Tattoos on the other hand can not interfere with a persons physical duties. Therefore you have NO constitutional right to determine my job skills according to the color of my skin. You will have to pass a total ban on public exposed tattoos before a limited exposure can be illegal. When working for the government I have the right to fill the position regardless of the color of my skin or the shape of my body. (see breast implants).
And by the way, tattoos no more indicate criminal behavior than breast implants indicate promiscuous women, nor does your wearing a neck tie indicate immoral white collar criminal activity on your part. Well maybe neck ties do indicate criminal intent, anyone that willfully violates their public oath to up hold the constitution as it is written on the day of the oath, is a criminal. (see the connection, neck ties are to white collar crime, as street crime is to tattoos). The Constitution strictly forbids the creation of a second class Citizen by any branch of Government, not even the righteous Bountiful city Council has the authority to do that.
Tattoos are not a problem. If the Citizens of Bountiful don’t feel comfortable seeing tattoos on their employees it is the councilmens job to delegate the funds needed to purchase the uniform and establish the psychological evaluation that gives the protection and security the citizens need.
Not hiring a person because of sever antisocial tendencies is not against the law, (unless it’s a disability) nor should it be. Expecting an Employee to cover (with cloths) antisocial tattoos is not entirely unreasonable either, but ostracizing a citizen for any non criminal coloring of their skin is. The creation of a second class citizen is not constitutional, or the friendly way I want Bountiful city to conduct business with my money. It is absolutely unconstitutional for Bountiful City to limit any ones Life, liberty or their pursuit of happiness.
I am a property owner in Bountiful City, therefore I do have the right to scold the Council of Bountifools for misbehaving in this irresponsible and troubling manner. I do not want the city to spend one cent of my tax money to defend this stupid ordinance. If the law has been passed, rescind it immediately. If it’s just in the works, drop the idea now, and take care of our constitution first and then attend to the more important duties that are required to run the city according to our existing laws. You also need to apologize to all of the good people that have tattoos. Good people with tattoos are still good people.
Sincerely
Kelly Miller, Tattoo Artist
Fear is what you feel when you don’t know me. It’s natural for introverts and paranoids to feel that way. Prejudice is what you feel when you see that I’m different than you, but won’t accept the fact that I‘m as good as you. Prejudice is learned behavior and is not natural to feel this way. Hate is the emotion you feel when you accept prejudice. You’ll know you hate me, when you support segregating me from the masses with rules that only apply to me because of how I “look”.
Hate through Prejudice is the cancer of intellect, and can easily become infectious to those that have the same spiritual mind set. Bigotry is the exposed behavior of those that retain and live by any of those hateful emotions. Bigotry creates ostracism for no good reason. Bigotry on your part creates distrust of you on my part. Which is totally justified. Only fools knowingly trust a bigot. Suppression is what happens when good men do nothing about this type of evilness.
Retaliation is what you can expect ,when you suppress and separate Grand Fathers from Mothers, and Brothers from neighbors, and Heros from those protected, for no good reason. To the Bountiful Councilmen I must ask. What in heavens name are you trying to do? I’m thinking you’re intensionally creating a public nuisance, that is not really here. You may even be committing a hate crime, simply by creating creating a crime of hatred and mistrust of 30% of our population. (Somebody recently said 30% of the US population is now tattooed) Even if your actions are constitutional, (and they’re not) you are supporting hatred for no morally sound reason. If I were your Bishop you would be excommunicated.
To those Councilmen that created this community wide display of Prejudice and Bigotry shame on you, you have dishonored the public position you have been intrusted to uphold. As far as I can tell, you have broken your oath to uphold the Utah State and US Constitution. You should be ashamed of yourself and resign, or be impeached. As a Councilman you should be standing, for not only my right to free speech, but my right to the same liberty as you have, including the right to work for the people. Do I now not qualify to run for an elected position in Bountiful? You bet I do, I have the same right, as every other qualified person does, to enjoy a tax payer funded job position. It is not just a job you’re denying me, you’re also denying me the health, retirement and other social benefits (read constitutional rights) that come with the right of every tax payer to be represented in a fair and impartial manner, including the right to due process and the right to the jobs created by and paid for with my taxes paid. My Citizens right to pursue life, liberty, and happiness guarantees my right to any government job I’m qualified for. Citizen rights are color-blind, just as my right to Justice is. To prove my point. When I take the city to Court, I will not have to hide the color in my skin to have access to Justice.
Citizens have no logical reason to fear tattooed people. Rightfully applied Due process will weed out all thoughs that are socially unfit to represent the public in public. So please don’t support those that are trying to scare the public with the infamous swastika on the forehead scare tactic. Swastika's on foreheads are foolish, not scary. Using this type of hype to justify denying a person with a butterfly on their wrist from making a living wage from the parks department is absolutly asinine.
What is scary is knowing that the Judge, the Cop, the Tax man, the Garbage Collector, and the lifeguard at the public swim pool had to prove his/her loyalty to the puritans by supporting the hatred against colored people clause in their employment agreement. By the way, isn’t a forced agreement that violates the rights of other citizens, against the law and the rights of the employee to be free of coercion and political prejudice? You bet it is. If you’re a good person you better stand-up for your rights, the 2008 council of bountifools is trying to divide and separate good people from good people for no good reason.
As the Constitution, and I as a Citizen see it. I have the right to pursue happiness in any way that does not infringe on any ones right to do the same. This includes coloring my skin, enlarging my breasts, tattooing make-up on one eye lid or both, or tattooing Bountifool Councilman on my forehead,. I have the same right to change “MY” appearance any way I choose, the same as you do. Tattoos belong on people, like artificial hair color, eyeliner, lipstick and breast implants do. If it's illegal to see any of these body modifications in public, it’s legal to see them all.
You, as a fellow Citizen or Government Official have no right to limit my lawful appearance in public. If my earring poses a job related safety risk, it is reasonable to remove it, if possible, during work duties. Tattoos on the other hand can not interfere with a persons physical duties. Therefore you have NO constitutional right to determine my job skills according to the color of my skin. You will have to pass a total ban on public exposed tattoos before a limited exposure can be illegal. When working for the government I have the right to fill the position regardless of the color of my skin or the shape of my body. (see breast implants).
And by the way, tattoos no more indicate criminal behavior than breast implants indicate promiscuous women, nor does your wearing a neck tie indicate immoral white collar criminal activity on your part. Well maybe neck ties do indicate criminal intent, anyone that willfully violates their public oath to up hold the constitution as it is written on the day of the oath, is a criminal. (see the connection, neck ties are to white collar crime, as street crime is to tattoos). The Constitution strictly forbids the creation of a second class Citizen by any branch of Government, not even the righteous Bountiful city Council has the authority to do that.
Tattoos are not a problem. If the Citizens of Bountiful don’t feel comfortable seeing tattoos on their employees it is the councilmens job to delegate the funds needed to purchase the uniform and establish the psychological evaluation that gives the protection and security the citizens need.
Not hiring a person because of sever antisocial tendencies is not against the law, (unless it’s a disability) nor should it be. Expecting an Employee to cover (with cloths) antisocial tattoos is not entirely unreasonable either, but ostracizing a citizen for any non criminal coloring of their skin is. The creation of a second class citizen is not constitutional, or the friendly way I want Bountiful city to conduct business with my money. It is absolutely unconstitutional for Bountiful City to limit any ones Life, liberty or their pursuit of happiness.
I am a property owner in Bountiful City, therefore I do have the right to scold the Council of Bountifools for misbehaving in this irresponsible and troubling manner. I do not want the city to spend one cent of my tax money to defend this stupid ordinance. If the law has been passed, rescind it immediately. If it’s just in the works, drop the idea now, and take care of our constitution first and then attend to the more important duties that are required to run the city according to our existing laws. You also need to apologize to all of the good people that have tattoos. Good people with tattoos are still good people.
Sincerely
Kelly Miller, Tattoo Artist
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9:07am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
9:09am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
9:18am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
(Sniff, sniff!)
9:26am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
9:30am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
9:42am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
9:48am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
10:57am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
11:18am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
I, personally, would not want to be assisted by someone that has so much body art on his or her face that it looks like they were just picked up from a jungle somewhere. We are a civilized society. If you want to look like that, thats your choice. Be prepared for the consequences.
Those gaping holes in the ears absolutely sickens me. Its revolting.
11:28am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
11:36am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
11:47am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
That was where I first realized, not all of God's creatures are beautiful.
12:11pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
1:36pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
1:23pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
2:12pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
12:46pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
If I am in a professional environment, I don't want someone that has so little respect for me and themselves helping me out. Its that simple.
I am not judging. I am not saying that they are bad people. I am simply saying that if you want to have a successful life in customer service, you had better not do things to your body that others simply dont want to look at.
1:43pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Judging isn't bad; judging is necessary. But judging unfairly and illogically is not good.
2:06pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
2:40pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
I guess you are too STUPID to know that a tattoo artist deals with Customers everyday, doesn't that count for customer service? Gee, one of the most popular kid shows for a long time Mr. Rogers had full sleeve tattoo's, but I guess because he had tattoo's he's below your such high stature.
What makes you so all HIGH AND MIGHTY to judge a person by their looks before you know anything about their character? Are you GOD, I think NOT.
With your statement; I hope that one day when you need medical help the EMT or Nurse or Doctor or Anistiologist refuses to help you because you're a BIGOT and PREJUDICE [no swearing please] and because they have tattoo's somewhere on their body.
2:49pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
3:45pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
3:56pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
4:18pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
2:50pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
My customers would be offended if my sales people had holes in there face with hunks of steel sticking out, and they would go somewhere else to spend there money. For that reason, I will not have someone that looks like that on my floor. End of story. I am afraid that the tattooed, pierced, ear guaged individual is not on the list of protected classes.
Good luck changing society.
(oh.... by the way, I have a tattoo.... It just isnt on my face.)
12:17am - Fri Aug 15th, 2008
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3:56pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
"As noted above, Fred Rogers never served in the military, and he bore no tattoos on his arms (or any other part of his body). He wore long-sleeved shirts and sweaters on his show to maintain an air of formality..."
2:20am - Mon Aug 18th, 2008
9:53pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
I am a professional, I work for a professional company and i have a full sleeve tattoo on one arm.
I work every day with people who make more money than i do, but yet they do not seem to have issues with me having a tattoo - I am still a successful IT professional.
My boss (who is a millionaire many times over) has them as well, and him and his successful companies seem to have a success rate. So tell me again why Tattoos make a difference?
Watch for this policy to be struck-down by the courts. The USAF tattoo policy applies to only tattoos that are exposed outside of the uniform.
How many people are going to lie on their city of bountiful application about their tattoos. What's next? The City of Provo requiring a temple recommend to work for them?
11:24pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
2:26am - Mon Aug 18th, 2008
As for tattoos, I know about 5 people close to me that have had tattoos and wish to high heaven now that they had never gotten them. The process to remove them is very painful and somewhat expensive.
I have no problem with people getting tats as long as they keep them out of sight. The minute you put the tattoo in plain sight is the moment you are trying to prove something to someone else, and is completely distasteful. People like Michael on Prison Break are not that pleasant to see for those who don't enjoy or appreciate the art that goes into a tat. While I hate to say it, I think that most of the tats I see are just incredibly stupid. I speak and read Japanese, and sometimes I see Chinese characters that don't really mean what the people getting the tats are led to believe...but hey as long as they think its cool...
12:12am - Fri Aug 15th, 2008
2:23pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
As you can tell society has now accepted both genders having piercings and long hair, it just has to be clean and neat.
This whole idea about banning anyone with tattoo's from working in Bountiful Government won't last long, because what are they going to do ask you during the interview process if you have a tattoo or not? If they do legally you don't have to answer, nor do you have to tell the truth atleast I wouldn't. I would counter question them with why does it matter if I did or not.
For those who say they would rather pretty much DIE than be helped by someone with tattoo's or piercings are way to sensitive.
Come on people tattoo's have been around for THOUSANDS of years and I guess society is just too PRISS to accept people for who they are, we'd rather be pre-judge a person before we know ANYTHING about them.
All I have to say to Bountiful officials and the prissy punka.. people is to GROW UP!!!!!!!
2:23pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
As you can tell society has now accepted both genders having piercings and long hair, it just has to be clean and neat.
This whole idea about banning anyone with tattoo's from working in Bountiful Government won't last long, because what are they going to do ask you during the interview process if you have a tattoo or not? If they do legally you don't have to answer, nor do you have to tell the truth atleast I wouldn't. I would counter question them with why does it matter if I did or not.
For those who say they would rather pretty much DIE than be helped by someone with tattoo's or piercings are way to sensitive.
Come on people tattoo's have been around for THOUSANDS of years and I guess society is just too PRISS to accept people for who they are, we'd rather be pre-judge a person before we know ANYTHING about them.
All I have to say to Bountiful officials and the prissy punka.. people is to GROW UP!!!!!!!
3:32pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
I freely admit there will always be exceptions but in the vast majority of cases a person who CHOOSES to dress in a sloppy manner or to forgo basic personal hygiene is broadcasting something different about who he is and something of what his values are than does the person who chooses to present himself in a clean, dignified manner.
Similarly, while there are societies where "body art" is revered, in the USA and Utah (as well as most other conservative areas in the nation) what one person considers "body art" is very likely to be viewed by the larger population as "self mutilation." Add in the propensity for gang members and other criminals to sport very visible tats and piercings and a person CHOOSING to have visible (and especially excessive) tats or piercings is going to create a certain impression.
I'm always amazed when people who sport various and highly visible "body art" are then surprised or upset when people notice, and having noticed, actually react in some way. Why did they get the "body art" in the first place if not for reaction? Yet they expect EVERYONE to react positively? Talk about hubris.
Society sets and holds certain conventions for good reason. People are free to go outside those bounds to large degree. But the rest of us are free to exert social pressure to show our concern and distaste for such choices.
11:27am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
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12:56pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
1:59pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Have you ever had an original thought in your life? I have a great job for you, and your non-adorned, white and delightsome temple is a must. You can be The Apologist for all the Babbits who have wasted every breath of their unoriginal lives as slaves to conformity. Surprise me just once. Express an original or unpredictable thought. I double-dog dare you.
Rugged Individualism: It works so much better when we all obey.
-Utah's State Motto
2:25pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
methodology. I think he stated clearly that it is
not a matter of smarter or more capable because you
are tatooed up one side and down the other. What he
is saying is that it is your choice to get inked all
over, but don't be surprised when someone doesn't want
to hire you for certain positions based on your
appearance. Much to your shagrin, there are still jobs
in the world that place a high level of emphasis on
professionalism, and that includes image and appearance.
If you choose to be the non-conformist, don't expect
those people that disagree with you to conform you your
decision of non-conformity.
You want to be a non-conformist, yet you expect everyone
to conform to your non-conformity?
2:30pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Now, I'll grant you that you won't find any specific section in there which guarantees you the right to have a tattoo on your face either, but you won't find anything that guarantees you the right to be hired for a job without any restrictions or prerequisites.
There are many rules and prerequisites when applying for a job. You can be "discriminated against" if you have a felony record for example, or if you are blind and apply for a bus driving job.
Nobody in this state or any other has made a rule that says you can't have all the tattoos you want. But you do NOT have the right to demand to be hired by ANYONE, and especially if you are unwilling or unable to meet the requirements of the job, which INCLUDES your attitude and your appearence.
5:43pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
10:21pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
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7:52pm - Fri Aug 15th, 2008
I'm not asking you get a Prince Albert, but won't you please entertain me with one idea that isn't predictable and boring and completely supportive of the predictable and boring and staid and traditional position? Seriously, do you hold a single position that is not predictable? Any surprise support for an idea or group I wouldn't expect? Pretty please.
You really have no imagination at all. None. You are intelligent, but so what? Intelligence is a waste on you. With my business I have made so much money off of my imagination. Perhaps money might motivate you to have an original thought? It can be practical. Not all imaginative, unique people are working at McDonalds.
I guess our system and the prosecuter's office needs people such as you (not too many I hope), but your poor wife and co-workers. Oh, the inhumanity of it!
2:53pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
2:57pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Sure I can, and I will. Don't bathe for a week, guess what? People will judge you. Wear dirty and tattered clothing to work, people will judge you.
Make yourself look like a circus freak, and people will judge you. And they should. These are all factors that you, as a responsible adult, have full and total control over. This goes even more if you are seeking to compete with other people in a professional atmosphere.
Now, if you are a minority, or speak with a stutter, have a physical deformity - that is something totally out of your control. So, unless someone held a gun to your head while you got the tattoo; don't demand that the public must bow to your whims - that's simply being selfish.
3:03pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
4:10pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
As far as not effecting performance I have to disagree to some extent. Tats probably not, but if your face looks like a pin cushion, I cannot believe that it is not distracting to you and could be a safety hazard in some jobs. Some people never learn to talk right with a mouth full of barbells.
I wear a full beard and realize that with it, I can never have a job that requires a gas mask Somehow I'll get over it.
11:48pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
12:56pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
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10:20am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
our state has one of the lowest
crime rates in the nation, and you
live here.
lines in the fire
and libertys must be
challenged.
10:35am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
2:29pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
3:19pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
but, almost every convict has a tattoo.
If you insist on identifying yourself, with thugs and criminals - well, that is your choice. Good luck with that.
You have the right to be as stupid as you want, and to destroy your life in multiple ways. Ink away, no one cares, except for the people who love you. Why do you suppose that your parents shudder inside everytime you show another 'tat'? Sure, they may be supportive and not want to hurt your feelings - but I sincerely doubt that they are proud of that accomplishment. Any idiot with $50 can get a tat.
What I can't figure out, is why a 'non-conformist' is now demanding that the rest of the world 'conform' to your 'non-conformist' activities.
10:30am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Several years ago, I worked for a major, world-wide retailer in their Salt Lake based location. I had worked for them for several years, and was one of the best employees - spotless record, nearly always on-time, great sales record, etc.
One day, a guy walks in covered with tattoo's all over his neck, arms, shaved-head, etc. Yes, he was a walking comic book! However, one particular tattoo stood out - a very large, graphically detailed, and explicit rendering of a naked woman on his arm. Nearly everyone walking by him turned away in disgust - it was that graphic! I noticed one woman with her two children having to walk away in the opposite direction so that her kids wouuldn't see.
Kindly, I had suggested to this young man that the next time he comes in our store that he may want to cover his tattoo so that others aren't offended. However, I still gave him my time and service, taking him through a sale on a digital camera, which he bought - never once refusing to help him.
However, what did he do? He sought out my store manager, claimed discrimination, and said that he was going to contact an attorney and the ACLU because he felt his rights were violated! I was sent home on a weeks probation with no pay!
He had a very pornographic description of a woman on his arm and this is the price paid for it? All in the name of "freedom of expression"? "Discrimination"?
So, my company who sent me home would rather cowar to a young punk, than to keep several good customers from coming back to our store?
Remember - all that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men (and women) do nothing!
We are in a day when good is called bad, and once what was bad is called good.
We are losing our standards of decency and morals!
10:46am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
No shoes?
No shirt?
Wacky tat?
BO?
Don't come back now, ya hear?
12:15pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
They value EVERY customer, which is how it is supposed to be.
1:25pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
1:33pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
1:48pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
That seems applicable in this incident.
1:54pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
2:25pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
11:59am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Yeah, I think that quote is meant to imply a little more evil than a frikkin tattoo on your arm, goofball.
Your company did exactly right by sending you home for insulting a customer on his method of free expression. A company can set standards for their employees, but when they start trying to do that for the customer, they only lose business.
If you're only comfortable working where others look the same, talk the same, think the same, and have all the appeal and expression of a Chairman Mao jacket, go get a job on the BYU campus. You'll never be bothered by independent thinking again.
2:04pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Also, Tomster Goofball, notice that I gave this man service even though I disagreed with this particular tattoo! Guess you failed to remember that part. Also, again, notice that the tattoo in question was a very graphic / explicit rendering of a naked woman! Even the managment stated that it was bordering pornographic to them! Notice that the tattoo in question was turning away other customers in disgust, including a mother with her children!
So, again, the store didn't send me home without pay because they felt I was wrong - they were afraid of him!
Would you sell porno magizines in a retail store where the najority of your clients are business people / families / parents? I know I wouldn't! Why then do we feel it's different and call it "free speech" or free expression to let a nutcase proudly exhibit porno on his arm and not say anything about it?
I have always been open and willing to serve and assist people with tattoo's in any sales environment - that's not the issue here as you are wanting to make it. My issue was a pornographic tattoo!
2:39pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
You're going to have to grow up, ser. And I mean soon.
3:56pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
4:21pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
At all.
Whatsoever.
...
7:50pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
2:44pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
"I was sent home on a weeks probation with no pay!"
apparently because your store "actually agreed with (you) in this case" all because they were frightened of a lawsuit that never materialized?
It seems far more likely that the store sent you home because you were trying to enforce YOUR "proper standard", clearly it wasn't theirs, and ultimately as I did,
they decided you were a goofball.
But if you feel it necessary to re-write that little piece of history to make yourself look better, well go ahead, by all means.
7:53pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
3:22pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
4:03pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Wow, did you make that one up yourself?
If you see something offensive (a highly detailed naked woman tat), you don't know what it is, until you see it. Read that part again, it's ok if you have to move your lips as you read. We understand.
People try to do something shocking, something to show what a non-conformist they are. Oh, so shocking, so immature, so offensive and so low class that they feel they should proudly display their 'art' for the world to see. I'd wager that when this loser is meeting his grandparents he manages to wear a long-sleeve shirt in 100 degree weather.
Now, this 'non-conformist' who holds our society in utter contempt is demanding that society hold him in awe for his immature display?
C'mon; tattoos are not a mark of a successful person. Any idiot with $50 in their pocket, and 10 minutes to spare can get one. Just like getting gold veneers on your teeth.
So, knock yourself out. Ink away. Then wonder why you can't get more than a minimum wage job, and the people you trained just last week are now supervising you today.
4:15pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Then this pinhead took it upon himself to make the customer feel unwelcome. Not wise from a business point of view, knowWuddimean?
4:37pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Same thing, in my opinion. The only difference I can see is that instead of having a problem that can be solved by water and soap; this person chose a more permanent problem.
Both can be repulsive, both are results of decisions under sole control of the customer. In both cases, I think it is appropriate for the store to advise the customer that they are not welcome back in the store until the problem has been corrected.
5:14pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
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12:24pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Sorry for insulting all the other "SLOW" sign holders.
12:17pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
4:29pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
2:44pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Dress codes, codes of professional conduct, age requirements, prohibitions on felony records, background checks, drug testing, and other specfic restrictions on behavior in the workplace have ALL been thoroughly tested in the Supreme Courts.
Tattooes are not considered a disability, and therefore are NOT subject to laws regarding discrimination on those grounds. Tattooes do not make the wearer a minority either, regardless of the color ink used, and so there is no ground for discrimination in that regard either.
The rules do not prohibit anyone from having a tattoo, they simply state that the tattoo cannot be visible -- or must be covered. If you put one on your forehead, then you're going to have a problem, but there is no law that requires an employer to hire you if you fail to meet the employment standards, which in this case are no different than a dress code.
11:33am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
I am in construction. The guys I work with are much like we described above.
However, I would prefer talking government business with someone who is more "clean" looking. It gives me a sense of responsibility to those who are helping me at the state. If a Cop will give more grief to individuals that are "wild" looking, than why wouldn't normal citizens have similar reserves.
2:09pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
1:37pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
9:43am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
1. Temple recommend
2. Visible garments
3. Opie Taylor haircut
4. Anti depressant prescription
9:47am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
How ironic that you make fun of another persons lifestyle choice whilest claming foul.
On and on it goes with you people. Don't forget we wear CTR rings occasionally.
10:27am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
10:31am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Also my point is absurdity thank you for proving my point.
12:25pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
3:19pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
3:48pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
10:36am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
This is just another thing that Professionals already know; and automatically do. Typically, a man will wear only one ring (wedding ring), a watch, and that is it. No necklaces, no braceletts, no extra rings or pins. Acceptable jewerly for a man may include a small pin denoting membership in a professional organization, but that is about it.
If you have a tatoo on your arm, then long sleeve shirts will always be worn; to hide the tattoo.
10:42am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
2:53pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Sincerely,
Phil Jackson
2:55pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Unfortunately people do judge by appearance. That is why people stage homes when want to sell them, hire beautiful models for commercials, profile people in gang clothing, etc. You don't have to agree with it but it is a real factor in business.
1:47pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
10:31am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
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2:14pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
4:41pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Hey, if you want to limit your career potential, why not put some letters on each of your knuckles? No one is saying that you aren't allowed to do stupid things, ink away.
But, don't whine when you find yourself being passed over for that job.
2:11am - Fri Aug 15th, 2008
What if I went in and applied for a job, and was in the habit of drawing a handlebar mustache on my face with magic marker. It's not a tatoo, so I guess technically, I'm still eligible for that job. Maybe I'm an eccentric, but maybe, just maybe I'm REALLY good at what I do. It's a shame to disqualify people solely on the basis of their appearance.
What was it that Martin Luther King, Jr. said? Oh, yeah. "I have a dream, that some day my children will be judged not for the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." I'm paraphrasing, but that's good enough for government work.
11:00am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
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2:39pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
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9:29am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
10:09am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
A tattoo on the other hand does nothing to prevent you from doing your job.
The city can specify a dress code and an appearance standard and that's fine, it just shows a little intolerance.
10:29am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Yes it does. For a great many jobs, you have to deal with customers. How you look, and how you act reflect upon your employer.
Ever see a Bank President with a tatoo on his face? Would you invest your money in a company ran by a man who looked like a walking comic book? Would you buy a new car from someone who looked like an escaped prisoner? Chances are that you would not.
Say for example, a man chooses to get breast implants, and wants to be a salesman for your company. He then makes sales calls on potential customers while sporting his 36DDs in a skin tight T-shirt - would that give your company a positive or negative impression to everyone that this man came in contact with?
10:50am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
How you look and how you act are two separate issues.
Personally, yes I would buy a car from someone that had tattoos, I could care less if the bank president looked "like a comic book" or had tattoos on his face, because that doesn't tell me ANYTHING at all about his ability to perform his job.
Your superficial discrimination and fear of anything unusual is quite sad really...
11:23am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
This is the U.S. We don't have a cultural or religious background involving facial tattoos like say, New Guinea. The only reason anyone in the U.S. puts a tattoo on their face is because they have issues. Daddy didn't love me enough or something. I don't have an issue with tattoos, I have one myself but I put it on my upper arm and shoulder because I didn't feel the need I had to put it somewhere where everyone can see it and think "what a rebel."
You can have a tribal tattoo on your arm, a full sleeve, even a whole body tat if you want and if you work in a professional environment, you won't have any issues and no one will think anything different. If you want to be a freak and put one on your face, expect to be shunned. That's what you're looking for anyway isn't it? People don't do that so they "blend in." They do it for attention, so there you go, you got your wish.
11:44am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
If you got a tattoo because your daddy didn't love you enough that's fine by me, I could care less if its visible or not though. :)
11:55am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Here's a smiley face back to you though so you know I'm being insulting, but in a way that makes it seem like I don't really care and am lowering my standards to disagree with you :)
12:01pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
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2:09pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Then they could hire people that they feel will best help their bottom line. They aren't discriminatory, they are capitalists.
5:17pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
12:14pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
You may as well have your tat on your face though, everyone knows you have one now and obviously are unfit to be in public. Most likely a foreigner with some crazy religious beliefs or a criminal with prison ink to hide.
12:28pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Back to the argument though, you just made a judgment against me. You don't know me but made the assumption that I think I'm better than anyone else that has a tattoo that chose to put it on their face. I thought only ignorant people make judgments?
BTW, I challenge you to name ONE mainstream religion that utilizes facial tattooing as a ritual.
12:35pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
12:38pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
1:34pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
You also assume there is only one culture here, and there isn't room for any others to co-exist. Last I checked this was still America, land of many different cultures regardless of your foolish closed mindedness.
Maori come to mind as big facial tattooists(if that's a word) I guess they aren't mainstream so they are not valid people in your opinion.
1:58pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Also, "last I checked" there are multiple forms of culture. It stems from individual culture all the way to a population’s primary culture. "Last I checked," someone's individual culture doesn't supersede America's primary culture. In simpler words, if you want to be the nail that sticks up be prepared to be hammered down.
BTW, since reading comprehension is an issue here, I said name a religion that utilizes facial tattooing not a civilization (especially a civilization you aren't aware of and bummed off my own post). Still waiting...
2:12pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
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Another Thinker 0
2:51pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Alex 1
Another Thinker .5
3:32pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
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9:24am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
It's probably about professionalism and not discrimination. If it was dont you think the sue happy people would be all over this?
9:26am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
I have four tattoos myself, but I chose to get them in places that would be somewhat easy to cover. And as a tattoo artist, I warn the people I ink before they get their work done that it will effect the way people view them, and to choose not only their designs wisely, but the placement as well.
The military has guidelines against the amount of ink on their soldiers- why not other government faculties?
9:31am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Discrimination has become a catch-all word for anything that an individual feels may limit their ability to do as they please and still be accepted by society, but it is NOT always a bad thing, nor is it always illegal or inapprpriate.
If the job requires you to be able to drive a city work truck, but you're blind, then you're not going to be considered for that job, and not because of prejudice against the blind, but because you have to be able to see in order to drive.
There is no one out there telling you that you can't have a tattoo, or what kind of tattoo, or where you can put it. But many people find facial and other obvious tattoos both distracting and offensive. On a public street, that is not an issue; if you want to tattoo a Swastika on your forehead like Charles Manson, or gang symbols between your fingers, or walk around with a bone in your nose, that's your business, but in a professional business environment, when I am forced to deal with you directly in order to conduct my business with the city, then it becomes my business.
If I walk down a public street and throw rocks at you and yell at you because you're sporting a tattoo, that is discrimination. If I required you to look professional at your job, to wear a suit and tie, and to remove the bone from your nose before you interact with my customers or the public at large, that is not discrimination.
9:39am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
10:21am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
10:29am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
11:04am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
So you are applying your own subjective assessment of what would or would NOT find acceptable, and execting everyone else to agree, and that is NOT what this debate is about.
What I find acceptable, no matter how mundane or benign, does not give me the right to assume that you will agree. Just because you find a tattoo attactive and non-offensive, does not mean that I will agree.
As the story says, it is not just what others may find offensive, but they also used the word distracting. I don't want my customers distracted OR offended, and as an employer, I have the right to hire people who can interact with my customers in such a way that will minimize any distractions or possible offenses.
You Said: "Are you going to tell a tribal African, Brazilian, or Samoan that they cannot work in Bountiful due to a tattoo that symbolizes faith or belief if its visible?"
No, I'm not going to tell you that. I am telling you that an employer, whether it is Bouniful City or any other, has the right to dictate their own standards of professionalism for their employees.
'They' (anyone) can place whatever symbols they want on their own bodies. It doesn't matter what they're trying to express, whether it's religious symbolism or a testiment of faith, or a love for their favorite pet or their favorite motorcycle brand, or as a remembrance of a lost loved one, or to remind us that they love their mother. Those are personal choices that 'they' make for their own reasons, but as an employer, I do NOT have to accept those choices, I do not have to agree with those choice, I do not have to interpret those choice the same way that 'they' do.
When you apply for or undertake any job, you're working for someone else, on their time, with their customers, and your right to personally express yourself, is limited to whatever your employer allows, whether you think it's fair or not.
You may be a member of some church, and you may feel obliged to spread the gospel whenever possible, to as many people as you can, but your employer has a right to prohibit you from proselitizing while you're on the job. It is not the tattoo, it is not the jewelry, it is not the hair cut or the cloths you choose to wear, or the religion or political affiliations you choose that are at issue here. Those are your choices. What is at issue here, is where your right to make those choices, has a direct consequence for others, and where you do not have the right to impose those choices upon others in the cloistered environment of a business.
As an employer, I have the right to require a specific dress code. I have the right to expect you to bath before you come to work, so that your odor does not offend my customers. I have the right to ask you to keep your hair neatly styled, and to wear a uniform and/or a suit. I have the right to ask you to remove any religious symbols you may be wearing and/or to remove them from view. I have the right to expect you to refrain from using foul language when interacting with my other employees or customer and to prohibit you from engaging in missionary work while you're on the job, and to otherwise conduct yourself in a courteous and professional manner as I DEFINE IT TO BE.
11:40am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
12:45pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Personally, as I've indicated above, I have no problems with tattoos. I have many friends and relatives who have them and I've watched many episodes of Miami Ink and LA Ink and have found many of the tattoos to be absolutely astonishing and beautiful pieces of art -- and if I was ever to get a tattoo, I would definately book an appointment with Kat Von D!
HOWEVER, if I were to ever get a tattoo, I would not be so naive as to expect that the rest of the world to understand why, or expect everyone to accept it, or to view me the same way as they might have without it. If I made that decision, whether I considered the opinions or views of others or not, it would still be my responsibility to accept whatever the consequences may be, and to have enough common sense to appreciate that my decision just MIGHT have some negative consequences.
I also have to question what you refer to as being "superficial" when it is painfully clear from the comments of those who do have tattos, they they are ANYTHING BUT superficial. They have many deep-rooted meanings -- they ARE expressions and they ARE intended to be viewed by others, so it is NOT unreasonable to expect that others may NOT view them as you or I would.
9:39am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
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Have fun working at Sconecutters night shift.
10:34am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
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Also, I worked with a guy who had a pretty cool looking tatoo starting at his wrist and went all the way up his right arm. He wore a long sleeved shirt everyday at work to hide his tatoo. When I asked him why, he said that business opportunities come more frequently if people don't know about it. He was promoted 2 weeks later. Freakin' smart guy if you ask me.
But then again, I AM NOT AN INDIVIDUAL because I am tatless.
10:01am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Tattoos may have become a more accepted form of self-expression in our society today, but that does not mean that everyone accepts them, or that sporting them on your face, etc., is in keeping with a professional business-like environment.
Walking around naked may be my way of expressing myself, of showing you what kind of person I really am, but that does not mean you have to like it or accept it, or that your prospective employers are going to allow me to "express myself" in front of their customers.
I used the nudist example as the extreme, but it is the principle that is at the heart of the matter. It is not the bone in your nose, or the beautiful carp tattoed on your shoulder, or a question of how wonderful you are as a person on the inside that is the issue here. The issue, is whether or not the people you interact with in a business or professional environment should be forced to accept your personal choice of expression.
10:03am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
You do realize that your generation is quite a bit larger than your small circle of friends don't you?
10:12am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
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I for one don't care for your forcing your ideas about accepting tattoos on me.
12:43pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
1:19pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Not all people who dislike tattoos are religious. My brother (Rodder) is as agnostic as they come, but he wouldn't get a tattoo on a drunken bet. So, little Miss Hypocrite, you're judging others.
You also seem pretty smug about getting people to be offended by your tattoo. A lot of posts are saying people get tattoos to get attention. Is that why you got yours?
2:27pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
4:47pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
By the way, making $8/hr is not a "great high paying job."
However, nobody is saying that people with tattoos cannot make good money. Statisctically speaking though, you will find it harder to make it. Interpretation: the likelyhood of making it big goes way down.
See you at Walmart on 13th, I'll be there Sunday afternoon.
4:57pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
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1:22pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
It doesn't matter why you choose to get a tattoo, but when you get one, and especially when you place it on your body in an area that cannot be hidden, or which is intentionally placed so that others cannot avoid seeing it, you are imposing your own views and attitudes and opinions and beliefs on others.
When you do that in a public forum, that is your right, because others do not have to be around you, they can turn away or simply ignore you, but in a private forum -- as in a business, when you are asking someone else to give you a job, you are in effect, asking someone else to allow you to display your symbols for others to see, and you are IMPOSING upon those other people.
As an employer, I have more to consider than just how YOU feel about the symbols you display. I have to consider how OTHERS feel, and I have every right to dictate that you cannot display your symbols, ghetto or otherwise, to my customers. And if that reality makes you unhappy, or uncomfortable, then you obviously understand how others may feel.
In the work environment, it isn't about YOU. In the work environment, it's about others, it's about making the customer happy, and making them comfortable and making sure they are not offended, even if offense was not your intention.
If you can't grasp this concept; if you can't have even the slightest amount of empathy and understanding for how others feel, then I wish you the best of luck finding any success in life, because you are going to be one very miserable person if you don't grow up and start taking responsibility for the decisions you make in life, and that includes paying the consequences for those decisions and not blaming every one else.
If you come to work for me, you will conform to the dress code I've established. You will show respect to my customers; you will say 'yes sir' and 'yes ma'am' and you will smile and be courteous. You will not argue with my customers, and you will show respect for your co-workers, and you will maintain a professional attitude. And if you decide to get a tattoo, you'd better stop and think before you put it where my customers can see it, because if place your personal symbol on your forehead where my customers are forced to look at it, then you're not going to be working for me tomorrow.
10:35am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
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11:25am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
So Maxx...you are right that this is discrimination but it is legal and makes sense.
9:15am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
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If you want a tattoo, then get one, but don't expect me to hire you if you've put it on your face where my customers are forced to look at it. I don't have to hire you if you do not have the skill sets I need, or you are unwilling to abide by the dress code I've established for my employees, or you'd rather work in the morning, when I need you to work in the evenings. That is the issue.
This debate is really no different than the one a few days ago with respect to BYU honor code, wherein a former student believs that the school should be forced to accept input from students and others with respect to that code. The issue is simply that if you cannot accept the code of conduct, then you should not attend BYU. Likewise, if you want to put a tattoo on your face, you have every right to do it, but you do NOT have the right to expect an employer to hire you if YOU make that choice.
11:25am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
A person can think tatoos are the neatest thing sinced sliced bread and saran wrap, but forcing me to accept this behavior is wrong. I chose what I find acceptable or not.
Don't let your mind be so open that anyone passing by can dump garbage in.
4:45pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
9:26am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Would you take a home loan from a banker with tat's all over his face? Would you buy a new car with a person covered in tats?
In my opinion, tats are a stupid thing to do. You see, as long as your maintain a body temperature above room temperature, you have cellular mitosis going on. This means that your tat's lines and colors will move as your cells divide. That's why ALL tats turn blue and eventually look like a blue blob.
Knowing this, one would think that a person who defaces their body with tats, does not respect himself. If you don't respect yourself, why should I expect you to respect me, or my customers?
Life is hard enough, a person stupid enough to voluntarily permanently disfigure themselves have foolishly removed most chances of getting ahead in life. Life is full of choices, not all choices are wise.
9:33am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
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2:39pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
My tattoo of myself is purely for laughs. And is makes people happy! I also peirced my butt cheecks together! HA!
9:43am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
This really could cause some legal issues. I guess time will tell. Maybe Bountiful will read the forums here and see it's already stirred big debate and controversy..
9:50am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
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9:45am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Tatoos ....
Intentional Burns and Scars ...
Multiple piercings ...
Drug tracks on the forearm ...
Smoking ....
Ear holes that are large enough to push a quarter through...
These are all signs that a person loves, and respects his body. (Robby, that is an example of sarcasm) Just like someone who paints graffiti on a building or bridge shows how much that person respects someone else's property.
I've given reasons why a 'tat' is stupid, and shows a lack of respect for yourself (ie. insecurity, low sel-esteem).
Can your provide any reason showing that I am wrong? Can you name 1 example (outside of a prison environment) where a tatoo would be benefitial?
9:53am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
9:56am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Not all tattoos are of half naked women dancing on a sailor's bicep!
10:09am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
And this is not one of them.
10:14am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Utah. Here, we have OUR culture. In some cultures women are traded like cattle. That in no way influences how we behave here, nor should it.
If you want to disfigure yourself; hey, knock yourself out. Do a spider web across your face for all I care, just don't whine too much when you get turned down at McDonalds.
In the USA, (this is where we live) tattoos are considered in a negative fashion. And when people who go out of their way to disfigure themselves, then jump up and down and demand that everyone else must accomodate their choices; this simply re-inforce the image that a tattoed person is someone we do not want to do business with.
10:23am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
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Ever hear of photographs and mementos? They work really well and are not as painful to get rid of if situations change.
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A tattoo, displayed in an area that a paramedic would find, that can save your life will NEVER be condemned by me. I think it's an outstanding idea.
So, the exception makes the rule. This is the only answer I have received, where a tattoo would be beneficial.
Life is hard. Getting ahead at work is difficult, at best. Sporting a tattoo will not help you get a job, advance in a job, or be successful at your job.
Sporting tattoos (especially on your face and hands) will certainly make getting a good job almost impossible. But, as long as we have gas stations, fast food, and carnivals - there will be employment opportunties for those who insist on tattoo's.
11:56am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
3:30pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
I have a beautiful lotus flower with a koi fish surrounding it on my back shoulder. The lotus flower starts as a small flower at the bottom of muddy pounds. As the flower grows it moves upwards towards the light. Once the flower reaches the surface it blooms into one of the most recognizable and beautiful flowers. The Hinduism and Buddhist religions view the lotus flower as a representation of awaking of spirituality. But the basic non-religious meaning is that the lotus flower represents the struggle of life at it's most basic form. For me it is a reminder of a very hard time in my life that I battled and over come. It reminds me that I am not a victim, but a survivor. The koi fits in with that, being a symbol of determination and perseverance. For me this combined tattoo represents my determination to survive.
On my ankle I have the japenese sigh for strenght, reminding me to stay strong and not fall into the traps that life sends us.
I have a sun that reprents rising above all the tramua that life throws at us.
How is that ugly or disrespectful? Based on having tattoos you can judge that I am insecure and have low self esteem? I think those that know me would counter that argument very quickly. Tattoos are a form of expression. I consider them art. That is my vision of them. It doesn’t mean that I disrespect my body. I’d say someone who is obese is more guilty of disrespecting their body.
6:06pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
You could make the same statement about obese people - it's their choice for the most part, they choose their diet, their exercise patterns and their living patterns, yet if someone were to not give an obese person a job because they didn't think their customers would react well, what would happen? I've given you a counterexample to your great example that you obviously hate yourself if you have tats...what's your reaction to my example?
7:01pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
10:01am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
10:19am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
But if they make stupid decisions, by all means look at them weird.
4:43pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
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11:55am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
If you expect to be the face of a business when a customer walks through the door looking like that - NEXT! That's MY perogative!
It's kind of like Newton's third law of physics: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
-Lurkin
3:46pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
Are you arguing that a person with a Tattoo has more courage than a non-tattooed person?
10:12am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
It's kind of sad when you're calling someone names and you can't even spell out a proper insult. Or was it because that tattoo between your (proper use of "your" by the way) fingers was getting in the way of typing?
Have a nice day. :-)
10:26am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
However, those who choose to tattoo themselves, DO NOT have the right to expect others to accept them. What you choose to do with your body, or the lifestyle you choose, or otherwise how you choose to express individuality, whether through the religion you choose, or the car you drive, or the education your seek, or the kind of dog you keep in your backyard, are all personal choices. I do not have to agree with your choices -- I do not have to accept your choices.
I grant that you have the right to choose your own path, but you do not have the right to demand that I accept it.
9:52am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
What people seem to be missing here, is that we all make choices in our lives, and some of those choice will LIMIT what we are able to do, and/or how we are preceived or accepted by others.
A kid may make the decision at age 17 to drop out of high school, or after graduation, to pursue a future without a college degree, but they must also recognize that those choices may limit their options with respect to the jobs they are qualified for, and will probably forever limit their earnings potential.
Getting a tattoo of any kind is a personal choice, but depending on what you get and where you put it, that tattoo may limit your acceptance by society, or change the way others perceive you, whether you think it's fair or not. Life isn't fair and you cannot force others to accept your choices. The only question is, whether you are willing to accept the potential consequences of the choices YOU make.
You may be a nudist, and you may walk around your house without a stitch of clothing on all the time, and as long as you do that in the privacy of your own home, that's your business. But as soon as you go out to get a job however, your prospective employer is not going to allow you to walk around naked while serving customers.
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I have to wear my hair neat and wear slacks and a tie to work, that is not discrimination against me (someone who likes to wear shorts and a tshirt and not do my hair) it is a dress code or appearance code.
I used to work in San Antonio (so you know it was not something influenced by the controlling Mormons (sarcasm)) and I had to be clean shaven for work every day. If I was not I was sent home to shave and given a warning. There are some jobs that require a professional appearance.
3:22pm - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
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11:23am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
On a public street, you are free to express yourself, and if that means with a tattoo under the hairline on the back of your neck, then more power to you.
When you come in off the street, when you come in and as me to hire you to work with my customers, then it becomes MY decision, MY judgement, MY opinion. If you can't see that, and if you can't accept that, then you are not taking responsibility for YOUR choices. On a public street, my opinion is irrelevant with respect to your choices, but in my business, you have no right to dictate what I should consider tastefully done!
10:02am - Thu Aug 14th, 2008
oh and i wouldn't want to be the one telling a two hundred and fifty pound boxer he couldnt get a job cause he tried to cover up his ugly face
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